Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[NWND]

If you read anything in to Lloris's statement it is that he is happy in London. From his wifes tweets you can tell she loves it in London. I feel he is happy with life. We just need to be at a level that reflects his quality. If he can wait out what we hope is a transitional period for Pochetinno then we will have a good base.

I just really hope that Kaboul can learn to use his brain and help utilise his clear physical attributes and become the top centre back he has the potential to be.

Along with a lot of the players I just don't think they have brains to quickly understand the system he wants or maybe it's the desire to work hard and play the Bielsa verticalidad *sp.

Intelligence angle I think we don't have enough of it on the pitch. Stamina also seems to be an issue. They don't seem to like running like mad. Ability isn't amazing. The squad doesn't have enough talent maybe.

A bit worrying if Poch doesn't get the time to do an overhaul of the squad.

Don't agree on the ability front. I think we have a very talented squad;
Intelligence I can agree on in some areas, but in others I also think we have some intelligent players. I think Kane, Soldado, Eriksen, Chadli, Lennon, Lamela are all intelligent. Our biggest problem in terms of intelligence is a lack of intelligent defenders.

Second biggest problem is lack of leadership or strong characters. I think the loss of the likes of Dempsey, Defoe, Dawson, Sandro etc has been felt badly, as well as the marginalisation of Assou-Ekotto, Holtby.

 

[Robspur12]

Just wanted to say guys, that over the past couple of pages of this thread in particular your posts have been logical, sensible and fair; I agree with virtually all of what you have both said.

Everyone knew Poch was a manager with a philosophy and a system. He is like AVB in that manner and whether you like it or not that is the reality of the situation right now. How well suited our squad and players are to his philsophy and system is a very, very pertinent one which people don't really seem to take into account. (incidentally the answer in my view is - probably - not very well suited).

Then, add the fact that we have an unbalanced squad shorn of top players, and players who are made of the right mentality and leadership stuff.

Next, times it by all the other various and myriad contextual factors that apply to Tottenham Hotspur - some of which as follows: Spurs is a big club, which has high pressure and expectation despite a recent history of constant near misses or relative failure; Spurs is a club which has good players but not TOP PLAYERS; Spurs is a club which plays in a top and very competitive league and which has a large and demanding fanbase; Spurs is a club which fights towards the top of the table against sides with greater resources but with a similar (ish) level of expectation.

To me, these things jar. That is, a new manager such as Pochettino is fighting an uphill battle from the start. I don't understand how some fans can't see that this jarring is GOING to cause bumps in the road. I don't understand how fans have to massively overreact when these bumps are hit.

This is what this all is - a big overraction. Let's look at the league campaign so far... we've had a mix. Great: QPR. Good, or decent, with areas for improvement: Sunderland, Southampton, the S**m. Mixed bag with positives and negatives: Emirates Marketing Project, Villa, Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Terrible... West Brom & Stoke (no questions asked, no debate, we were SHOCKING in these last two matches).

Cup form has done the business: points over style in Europe (which, btw, is generally the same as EVERY SINGLE Europa league group stages) and good win against lower league in the LC.

And points-wise, this is a tight league this year, we are still right in the mix and not in a Ramos style situation. We are not playing like a relegation team overall, we have played like that for two matches.

Total games played: 11 league matches with 5/6 cup matches thrown in. It's not even December and we have a new manager who is having to deal with massively high expectations from fans, unbalanced squad not suited to his system, pressure from all areas. And our 'crisis' looks like: several hard games out the way already and midtable, definitely not relegation material, not out of any cups, not even at Christmas yet. I've even seen a manager able to bend his philosophy and be pragmatic to take advantage of the opposition (S**m away).

I don't understand what people EXPECT. Miracle-working clearly. Van Gaal is one of if not the most experienced managers around and it's not all plain sailing at Man U is it! After hundreds of millions spent. Yes they have hit the 'adapation climb' towards his methods slightly quicker than us (or it seems there are slightly more consistent signs of it) - but it's not like they are miles ahead of us in the league is it?

Poch has made mistakes. I don't agree with some of his decisions. In a couple of games we've looked clueless. But this is early doors. We don't have the squad and team of the teams above us who can adapt seamlessly. We don't even have any leaders who can help our unsuited squad try and make that transition either. Poch has had one transfer window to change a few players around. But the wider job - of reshaping the squad, of getting leaders in, of changing the mentality - will take him or any manager longer than that.

That is what I see... I see a seriously difficult job at Spurs. I think we need to wake up to this. I also think that at some point our whole managerial merry-go-round has to stop. We have to put faith in a man to change it around - or at least give him the best possible shot at doing that. And I simply don't agree that at THIS STAGE IN THE SEASON what has happened so far is even close to being the 2 points from 8 points level hysteria that is engulfing a seemingly increasingly large proportion of Spurs fans. I call it hysteria and this is what I am seeing - even in this very thread!

Football is short term these days, in the majority of cases, fact. This timeframe we are talking about now (not even December) is just ludicrous.
Poch needs a minimum of 3 transfer windows and a timeframe of well into full season TWO before a serious analysis can be conducted IMHO. if there are no strong and consistent signs of consistency and improvement at this stage, fair enough.

But until that point, and unless we get Stokes/WBAs every other weeks, we have to back the guy in charge.

The number of Spurs fans who: (usually) didn't want Poch in the summer, say they will give him a chance and some time and show some patience, then proceed to effectively turn on him him within a matter of months, saddens me a lot. (And incidentally some of these Spurs fans are my best mates, who I am having the same debates with in person!). I don't understand the lack of patience.

=D> bang on mate.

 

[Finney Is Back]

No more flawed than comparing two sets of results directly before and after a mid season managerial change - what with the honeymoon period factor (and many other variables)

So let me get this straight - you want to compare Sherwood's games last season to AVB's the season before when he was being Bale'd out?

Also this honeymoon period thing.... Where on earth is our Pochettino honeymoon?.... Or was our honeymoon the equivalent of a weekend in Southend with wins against West Ham and QPR and then straight into the drudgery of married life?

 

[billyiddo]

So let me get this straight - you want to compare Sherwood's games last season to AVB's the season before when he was being Bale'd out?

Also this honeymoon period thing.... Where on earth is our Pochettino honeymoon?.... Or was our honeymoon the equivalent of a weekend in Southend with wins against West Ham and QPR and then straight into the drudgery of married life?

I don't want to compare their games to anyone elses, wasn't that clear? the sample size is too small and there are too many variables. I look at what each has done and factor in the relevant circumstances and draw my conclusions from that.

Honeymoon periods, in my mind at least, is in reference to a period where a manager comes in to a side whilst the season is underway. Not sure it's relevant to a new appointment in the summer.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't want to compare their games to anyone elses, wasn't that clear? the sample size is too small and there are too many variables. I look at what each has done and factor in the relevant circumstances and draw my conclusions from that.

Honeymoon periods, in my mind at least, is in reference to a period where a manager comes in to a side whilst the season is underway. Not sure it's relevant to a new appointment in the summer.

The only thing that I thought was clear was that Sherwood came into a club, didn't purchase a single player, yet managed to get the same team who could barely score a goal and were dull as dirty dishwater to watch, scoring goals again, playing football that was better to watch and at an improved points per game average.

I wonder if in reality there is not really any such thing as a honeymoon period? and in reality some managers just get off to a good start and others don't?

For example why did Pochettino not have a honeymoon period when he initially took over at Southampton?

 

[the dza]

Pochettino first 11 league games at Southampton:

P 11 W 4 D 4 L 3 F 17 A 14

add in the remaining games of the first season he was at Southampton and it was:

P 16 W 4 D 7 L 5 F 19 A 19

not a particularly fast start at Southampton, imo, although some good wins v City, Chelsea and Liverpool (all at home).

for us SO FAR:

P 11 W 4 D 2 L 5 F 14 A 16

 

[sc25]

I don't want to compare their games to anyone elses, wasn't that clear? the sample size is too small and there are too many variables. I look at what each has done and factor in the relevant circumstances and draw my conclusions from that.

Thats basically what I got out of it too: Virtually nothing. A point or two either way somehow shows that someone wasn't superior in any way? Erm, well, never mind The overriding thing I did get out of it, however, is that...its pretty darn close! The fact they are in the same ball park and there's even a comparison, especially one that close, says a lot, to me anyway. Anyway, regarding Poch, I can't glean from that stat alone that Poch is any better. We don't know that yet. To coin a phrase, '11 games is too early to judge'. We hope he is, but if we go on a swoon and he is sacked and his points per game record is worse that Sherwood, should we automatically deduce from it that Poch 'is not in any way' a better manager? There would be some who wouldn't come to that conclusion, right? Also, the 3 point difference that was cited actually made little or no difference to us as a team because if you add the 3 points to our total, we'd still have finished 6th last season anyway. But yeah, as you say billy, we draw our own conclusions on these things and I doubt those couple of stats changed anybody's opinions either way.

 

[Pirate55]

You make some good points. In fact, i'd go so far as saying you've made me feel much better about the situation. It's so hard not to kneejerk and let your emotions get the better of you. I like Poch and I desperately want him to succeed. I really hope he turns things around for the better and for the record i'm loving his trust in our youth players.

I think the performances have just been worse than I ever expected over the last few games and it's shaken me and my faith in him. I did enjoy the QPR and Sunderland games and we played well against Southampton, Arsenal and City in spells. We have been very very poor and disorganised for long spells recently however and I also would like to see more of his Southampton style being implemented quicker. I feel one of AVB's failings was in trying to implement his strategy too slowly, to the point where he never fully did it. The high line was stuck in a kind of half-way house where we never really went for it 100%.

Pochettino has got to forget the fact that he's at Spurs and that there are higher expectations. He's got to go hard for his principles. But I also think he could do with keeping things simple and organised at the back and in attack.

I am worried and hopefully i'm going to look like a complete dingdong for being so worried, so soon. I really hope that I do.

I am with you on that sentiment NWND.

My principal concern at this stage is the quality (or otherwise) of the signings with Poch at the helm. None of them seem to be of the requisite quality or character to help us make progress in the right direction. This is the area I want to see dramatically improve. I still blame Baldini for this but Poch must put his own stamp on this area ....and fast.

 

[metalgear]

I think we need to work on both the buying and the selling side. I think we would been in a better position with caulker instead of kaboul, and siggurdson instead of Ade.

 

[billyiddo]

The only thing that I thought was clear was that Sherwood came into a club, didn't purchase a single player, yet managed to get the same team who could barely score a goal and were dull as dirty dishwater to watch, scoring goals again, playing football that was better to watch and at an improved points per game average.

I have no feelings one way or the other on Sherwood really - i was happy enough to give him a chance when he was appointed but ultimately it'd have to have been something special for me to want someone with zero experience/qualification to get the job full time (he'd barely been in charge of any youth games ffs)

and was it special? No not really, we outscored the lesser teams, played open football with no real decipherable plan other than to score goals and we still came up embarrasingly short against the big teams. 'released the shackles' i remember being a phrase used at the time and is probably an accurate description, yeah we had a good ppg but that doesn't outweigh any of the worries id have about employing him in the job long term or tell me it was anything more than beginners luck/honeymoon period/whatever.

 

[jimmyb]

The only thing that I thought was clear was that Sherwood came into a club, didn't purchase a single player, yet managed to get the same team who could barely score a goal and were dull as dirty dishwater to watch, scoring goals again, playing football that was better to watch and at an improved points per game average.

I wonder if in reality there is not really any such thing as a honeymoon period? and in reality some managers just get off to a good start and others don't?

For example why did Pochettino not have a honeymoon period when he initially took over at Southampton?

In your opinion, mate.

Me? I couldn't ****ing stand the football under Sherwood. It was different to the poor football under AVB, certainly. But I still hated it. It wasn't good football.

 

[ALtottenham_hotspur]

Pochettino first 11 league games at Southampton:

P 11 W 4 D 4 L 3 F 17 A 14

add in the remaining games of the first season he was at Southampton and it was:

P 16 W 4 D 7 L 5 F 19 A 19

not a particularly fast start at Southampton, imo, although some good wins v City, Chelsea and Liverpool (all at home).

for us SO FAR:

P 11 W 4 D 2 L 5 F 14 A 16

I think thats really interesting. I read he didnt have a great start at Southampton but couldnt find the stats. Hopefully if POCH can get one or two signings in January and we will see some improvement.

 

[Roy1983]

K

Pochettino first 11 league games at Southampton:

P 11 W 4 D 4 L 3 F 17 A 14

add in the remaining games of the first season he was at Southampton and it was:

P 16 W 4 D 7 L 5 F 19 A 19

not a particularly fast start at Southampton, imo, although some good wins v City, Chelsea and Liverpool (all at home).

for us SO FAR:

P 11 W 4 D 2 L 5 F 14 A 16

So he only won 8/27 league games?

Thought it would've been higher than that.

 

[P.D.]

Read an article on the Bundesliga the other day, mentioned Lucian Favre and his team are 2nd in the league going 18 games unbeaten all season playing fantastic football. Weren't there a lot of people clamouring for him in the summer?

 

[Cochise]

Wasn't he snapped up early on though?

 

[jimmyb]

Pochettino first 11 league games at Southampton:

P 11 W 4 D 4 L 3 F 17 A 14

add in the remaining games of the first season he was at Southampton and it was:

P 16 W 4 D 7 L 5 F 19 A 19

not a particularly fast start at Southampton, imo, although some good wins v City, Chelsea and Liverpool (all at home).

for us SO FAR:

P 11 W 4 D 2 L 5 F 14 A 16

Interesting.

I do remember, however, that Southampton often didn't get the points that their performances deserved that season. For instance, within a matter of weeks of Poch's arrival, they went to Old Trafford and played Utd off the park - as admitted even by Alex Ferguson - but still lost 2-1.

The match stats for that game show that Southampton had 50% possession; 21 shots on goal to Utd's 11; 10 of them on target to Utd's 7; and 8 corners to Utd's 4. Very impressive. Bear in mind that Utd were subsequently runaway Premier League winners that season. So even though results didn't always go for Poch in his first half season at Saints, his team was playing as he wanted it to - pressing ferociously; winning the ball in dangerous areas; transitioning quickly into attack. So we know that it's very possible for players to respond quickly to his methods and his tactics.

Compare and contrast with Spurs this season. Other than victory against a woeful QPR, we haven't dominated games this season. We haven't played like a Pochettino team at all. So the conclusion has to be either that our players are wholly unsuited to his methods and tactics or that they are stubbornly resistant (deliberately or otherwise) to learning and adapting to his methods and tactics.

Or that they just aren't very good players.

 

[Yermiyahu]

K

So he only won 8/27 league games?

Thought it would've been higher than that.

I find that a worrying statistic to be honest

 

[jimmyb]

K

So he only won 8/27 league games?

Thought it would've been higher than that.

No.

The dza's stats are a little confusing.

He started by posting the stats for Poch's first 11 league games at Saints in order to compare with his first 11 league games at Spurs.

He subsequently posted the stats for all 16 of Poch's league games that season.

 

[sc25]

So the conclusion has to be either that our players are wholly unsuited to his methods and tactics or that they are stubbornly resistant (deliberately or otherwise) to learning and adapting to his methods and tactics. Or that they just aren't very good players.

Well we know its a very good squad because that was widely espoused last season (a squad that had in fact 'underachieved' even by finishing 6th). As far as his methods, and the players being resistant to it, you may be on to something and I have to believe that there are some managers out there that thus far would have been doing better with this group.

 

[jimmyb]

Well we know its a very good squad because that was widely espoused last season (a squad that had in fact 'underachieved' even by finishing 6th). As far as his methods, and the players being to resistant to it, you may be on to something and I have to believe that there are some managers out there that would have been doing better with this group.

Possibly.

There are certainly some managers whose methods and tactics are easier.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that, long term, those managers would be right for the club or that they would be able to take us to where we want to be.

I'd rather endure a difficult season or so if it means that the ceiling is eventually higher.