Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[glorygloryeze]

Marching us up to the top and failing is proper clamy way of describing the last few years under Poch mate afaic

Would you prefer, getting into good positions to win trophies but not quite getting there?

 

[Raziel]

Sorry, but the talking down of regular top 4 finishes and a CL final is just getting silly now. It was not always destined to happen. The fact that we have had the last 5 years is an absolute triumph, and it is precisely why he has the credit in the bank that he does.

It WAS a good achievement at the time, the club has not invested a billion pounds into a future based on top 4 finishes ONLY.

If we are going to re-invest/refresh this squad in any serious way, there has to be a real conversation of why should Poch be the person to take that step (even ignoring the results of this season). A SAF or Simeone could point to achievements, not almosts ..

 

[BrainOfLevy]

It WAS a good achievement at the time, the club has not invested a billion pounds into a future based on top 4 finishes ONLY.

If we are going to re-invest/refresh this squad in any serious way, there has to be a real conversation of why should Poch be the person to take that step (even ignoring the results of this season). A SAF or Simeone could point to achievements, not almosts ..

Utter rubbish.

Consistent top 4 finishes and a CL final, an 86 point season, while operating under the constraints of a 36k seater stadium, top 6 wage budget etc...it’s one of the best achievements in football over the last few years. Consistency to keep the level that high, under those constraints while most players attaining a level that they had never reached before. This shouldn’t need to be explained, but that is why he has the credit that he does. To talk that down is just a garbage take, and a rewriting of history to suit your argument. None of this was destined to happen to us. Poch was a massive part of why it did.

 

[Raziel]

I think we’ll finish top 6. Right now I don’t think being behind Brighton etc means much considering we are just over a quarter of the way through the season. I think we have started to look more solid since Brighton, which was an atrocious day.

I’m not denying things aren’t good right now. But my question remains, if it is generally accepted wisdom that a 4 year cycle is what you get from one core group in sport, why exactly should we be immune from this? The idea that this comment in this presser or this player plays instead of that one is a total misnomer to the broader issue - that by not adequately replacing the players that we needed to, we were storing up a period of struggle.

The idea that Poch doesn’t have credit in the bank because he’s not a ‘serial winner’ greatly diminishes just how fantastic the achievements we have made over the last 4 years have been. And frankly accusing him of hippy stuff or whatever else we are now seeing in this thread is disrespectful garbage. Not that he would read it but it just makes us look like entitled tossers. He was making the same tactical choices and subs etc when we were winning, now we’re losing and these are the problems...despite the fact that generally received wisdom from most at the top of sport suggest a 4 year cycle is what you get, and we didn’t refresh to get ahead of our downward curve on that cycle and everyone of our rivals, plus some new contenders, have.

I have no idea how you calculate a top 6 finish when our last 20 games have got us 23 points, unless you believe top 6 will be around 40 points? (and no offense, this is exactly the type of wishful thinking that makes these conversations rediculous)

Poch has had the opportunity multiple times to win something, and with the squad at it's peak, he failed. And yes when we were playing well his selections, rotations, late subs and tactics often made no fudging sense. Maybe, just maybe hindsight says he wasn't the mastermind, but simple a decent manager (with significant flaws) given a very good squad at a time when our peers were struggling.

Personally I don't care how Poch would read it, again the fudging guy is an employee of THFC and being paid very well to do a job that he is failing miserably by any real measurement.

 

[billyiddo]

Would you prefer, getting into good positions to win trophies but not quite getting there?

Id rather people not talk down a good period for the club because they're unhappy with how things are currently. You just sound entitled. But i can see im fighting a losing battle on here atm and im just going to have to bite my lip more often

 

[Raziel]

Utter rubbish.

Consistent top 4 finishes and a CL final, an 86 point season, while operating under the constraints of a 36k seater stadium, top 6 wage budget etc...it’s one of the best achievements in football over the last few years. Consistency to keep the level that high, under those constraints while most players attaining a level that they had never reached before. This shouldn’t need to be explained, but that is why he has the credit that he does. To talk that down is just a garbage take, and a rewriting of history to suit your argument. None of this was destined to happen to us. Poch was a massive part of why it did.

To quote you mate .. utter rubbish .. Leicester PL winners .. that is what great achievements look like, not 1 or 2 positions higher than fudging Harry Redknapp achieved.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I was looking at our form last season to see where we trailed off

I was wondering was there an international break between that Dortmund and Burnley games. But no that was a FA week we had off.
But that Burnley game was the Mike Dean game where Poch completely lost his brick at the end.
We have it seems never recovered from that moment.

No. It's been a year .....so all the way back to November.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think we’ll finish top 6. Right now I don’t think being behind Brighton etc means much considering we are just over a quarter of the way through the season. I think we have started to look more solid since Brighton, which was an atrocious day.

I’m not denying things aren’t good right now. But my question remains, if it is generally accepted wisdom that a 4 year cycle is what you get from one core group in sport, why exactly should we be immune from this? The idea that this comment in this presser or this player plays instead of that one is a total misnomer to the broader issue - that by not adequately replacing the players that we needed to, we were storing up a period of struggle.

The idea that Poch doesn’t have credit in the bank because he’s not a ‘serial winner’ greatly diminishes just how fantastic the achievements we have made over the last 4 years have been. And frankly accusing him of hippy stuff or whatever else we are now seeing in this thread is disrespectful garbage. Not that he would read it but it just makes us look like entitled tossers. He was making the same tactical choices and subs etc when we were winning, now we’re losing and these are the problems...despite the fact that generally received wisdom from most at the top of sport suggest a 4 year cycle is what you get, and we didn’t refresh to get ahead of our downward curve on that cycle and everyone of our rivals, plus some new contenders, have.

We can't say last summer "oh our squad is great, it needs only a tweak here or there, so it doesn't matter that we didn't buy anyone" and now say "we stored up a whole load of problems by not buying anyone over a year ago and that explains why we have won 3 times out of 11". You can't have it both ways. And all talk of cycles was poo-pooed back then when many criticised the unprecedented decision not to buy

Poch did have credit in the bank, until he started saying odd things that top managers don't say in press conferences and belittling his squad ("it'll take me ten years to change the mentality", "this is not my best squad" etc etc).
Remember it was the things he said AND did that got him that credit: saying things to the effect of always aim high, believe it yourself, act like a big club etc etc, nit the downtrodden stuff in recent times. Again if he gained credit for the way he projected the club before, he is ripe to be criticised for how he projects himself and the club now.

Hippy stuff as follows:

- "trophies are only for egos"
- "if we win perhaps i leave"
- lemons and auras
- not wanting to make subs too early because "it may hurt players feelings"

 

[glorygloryeze]

Id rather people not talk down a good period for the club because they're unhappy with how things are currently. You just sound entitled. But i can see im fighting a losing battle on here atm and im just going to have to bite my lip more often

I'm certainly not talking it down; but it is what it is. In our best situations and scenarios Poch has NOT got us over the line. Those are facts. And those facts colour how we view as to whether Poch has a further gear to go or whether those great times we had with him were as good as it will get under him.

Oh and in terms of entitled: do i sound any worse than our manager saying "if we win the CL i might leave"? After all the stuff about wanting people to buy into him and the club long-term?
Plus saying "Trophies are only for egos" because, you know, THFC and Poch are way too cool to try for those?
How entitled was that?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

We can't say last summer "oh our squad is great, it needs only a tweak here or there, so it doesn't matter that we didn't buy anyone" and now say "we stored up a whole load of problems by not buying anyone over a year ago and that explains why we have won 3 times out of 11". You can't have it both ways. And all talk of cycles was poo-pooed back then when many criticised the unprecedented decision not to buy

Poch did have credit in the bank, until he started saying odd things that top managers don't say in press conferences and belittling his squad ("it'll take me ten years to change the meteorology", "this is not my best squad" etc etc).
Remember it was the things he said AND did that got him that credit: saying things to the effect of always aim high, believe it yourself, act like a big club etc etc, nit the downtrodden stuff in recent times. Again if he gained credit for the way he projected the club before, he is ripe to be criticised for how he projects himself and the club now.

Hippy stuff as follows:

- "trophies are only for egos"
- "if we win perhaps i leave"
- lemons and auras
- not wanting to make subs too early because "it may hurt players feelings"

If you think what he says in pressers has actually impacted players, a core group of whom don’t want to be here over the long term and are in their last season, any more than the simple fact that we have come to the end up a 4 year cycle, then fine.

The stuff about the squad is not so binary. It can be true that there wouldn’t have been many obvious improvements on our prior budget. Now we are shopping in the N’Dombele aisle, clearly there is now more to go. It can be also be true that we needed to sell players before getting new ones in, and players have decided not to leave, largely because of the same problem of our progress - there aren’t too many better places, so they’d rather wait it out and try their luck at getting more wages on a free transfer.

But yes, the players are now thoroughly turned off by lemons, where as 4 years ago they thought it was cool. What changed? Maybe the fact that 4 years have passed and a core group is still here?

 

[billyiddo]

I'm certainly not talking it down; but it is what it is. In our best situations and scenarios Poch has NOT got us over the line. Those are facts. And those facts colour how we view as to whether Poch has a further gear to go or whether those great times we had with him were as good as it will get under him.

Oh and in terms of entitled: do i sound any worse than our manager saying "if we win the CL i might leave"? After all the stuff about wanting people to buy into him and the club long-term?
Plus saying "Trophies are only for egos" because, you know, THFC and Poch are way too cool to try for those?
How entitled was that?

That's the trouble football someone pessimistic will always talk down what you achieve - you're summarising his time by what we didn't do rather than looking at what we did do - which i think completely misses the strides we took in this period.

You can focus on not winning the league or the CL out of pure entitlement if it suits you but that aint a good look for a Spurs fan

 

[BrainOfLevy]

To quote you mate .. utter rubbish .. Leicester PL winners .. that is what great achievements look like, not 1 or 2 positions higher than fudging Harry Redknapp achieved.

A great achievement, and then they went back to mid table for the last 3 years. A freak, not consistent excellence.

But this really shouldn’t need to be explained. The talking down as ‘1 or 2 positions higher than Harry’ is just awful. You must know this. You must know how much harder it is to turn a top 6 into a consistent top 4 one? That those last few places are actually pretty bloody difficult to step up to? It doesn’t suit your argument though and you don’t trust him anymore - fine. But any top manager seems to say 4 years is your lot with a core group. It should be no surprise we are struggling because we haven’t refreshed as much as our competitors.

 

[glorygloryeze]

If you think what he says in pressers has actually impacted players, a core group of whom don’t want to be here over the long term and are in their last season, any more than the simple fact that we have come to the end up a 4 year cycle, then fine.

The stuff about the squad is not so binary. It can be true that there wouldn’t have been many obvious improvements on our prior budget. Now we are shopping in the N’Dombele aisle, clearly there is now more to go. It can be also be true that we needed to sell players before getting new ones in, and players have decided not to leave, largely because of the same problem of our progress - there aren’t too many better places, so they’d rather wait it out and try their luck at getting more wages on a free transfer.

But yes, the players are now thoroughly turned off by lemons, where as 4 years ago they thought it was cool. What changed? Maybe the fact that 4 years have passed and a core group is still here?

Ok you talk about this 4 year cycle; did you think it would be key before the season started? If you did, fair enough. If you didn't then it feels a bit like excuses in hindsight for a poor start.

Who exactly are these players who you believe are suffering/not performing due to this 4 year cycle thing?

 

[glorygloryeze]

That's the trouble football someone pessimistic will always talk down what you achieve - you're summarising his time by what we didn't do rather than looking at what we did do - which i think completely misses the strides we took in this period.

You can focus on not winning the league or the CL out of pure entitlement if it suits you but that aint a good look for a Spurs fan

No, the focus is purely on:

1) should we be underperforming as badly as we are now?
2) do we think Poch is the man that can turn our downturn around

The past and what we did and did not achieve are inescapable pats of how you judge the above.

PS - You can't talk about "a good look" re Spurs fans comments and then totally dismiss what the Club's own manager says wrt to leaving, not having the best squad, thinking trophies are for egos etc

 

[billyiddo]

No, the focus is purely on:

1) should we be underperforming as badly as we are now?
2) do we think Poch is the man that can turn our downturn around

The past and what we did and did not achieve are inescapable pats of how you judge the above.

PS - You can't talk about "a good look" re Spurs fans comments and then totally dismiss what the Club's own manager says wrt to leaving, not having the best squad, thinking trophies are for egos etc

You responded to a post i made where i was saying we know what Poch can do with a squad that isn't at the end of it's cycle - which answers whether i think he can or can not move us on from our current position.

He had 4 years of good results and a consistent upward trajectory, we than had a 'poor' season last year with mitigating circumstances (new stadium fiasco, no signings at all and the bulk of our key players going deep in the WC blah blah blah) and so far this season we have started poorly, again with mitigating circumstances (key players running down their contract, deadwood not being moved on, new signings injured so last seasons inactivity in the window feeling even more of a strain) my point is when you remove those mitigating circumstances he has shown himself to be a manager who can get us competing for the big prizes and at the top of the league. So let's give him what he needs to succeed rather than complain he can't struggle on with what's holding him back anymore.

You're meant to back your managers, not make their jobs harder and complain when they tail off

 

[lurker of old]

Some who want to give Poch more time, say that he deserves to go again next season with a newly refreshed squad. But against that, will "brand Poch" now be much more questionable, by which I mean will a new group of players buy into his approach as completely as the original group did? And if in reality we get 2 or 3 incoming, will that really be enough to make the squad feel refreshed and revitalised? I would say that he has 2 or 3 games to turn it round.

 

[scaramanga]

Utter rubbish.

Consistent top 4 finishes and a CL final, an 86 point season, while operating under the constraints of a 36k seater stadium, top 6 wage budget etc...it’s one of the best achievements in football over the last few years. Consistency to keep the level that high, under those constraints while most players attaining a level that they had never reached before. This shouldn’t need to be explained, but that is why he has the credit that he does. To talk that down is just a garbage take, and a rewriting of history to suit your argument. None of this was destined to happen to us. Poch was a massive part of why it did.

Soooo.... we just accept that some top 4 finishes are as good as it gets?

Or should we always be aiming higher?

 

[scaramanga]

Ok you talk about this 4 year cycle; did you think it would be key before the season started? If you did, fair enough. If you didn't then it feels a bit like excuses in hindsight for a poor start.

Who exactly are these players who you believe are suffering/not performing due to this 4 year cycle thing?

It's an entirely post hoc argument. Nobody was making this point last December.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Soooo.... we just accept that some top 4 finishes are as good as it gets?

Or should we always be aiming higher?

No, of course aim higher. What about anything I’m saying makes you think I’d think otherwise?

Even when aiming higher though, we have to be mindful of all of the factors affecting the club. There will be things that mean the route to the promised land won’t be a smooth, uninterrupted joyride up the table. We will have bumps. But absolutely we should be aiming higher.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Ok you talk about this 4 year cycle; did you think it would be key before the season started? If you did, fair enough. If you didn't then it feels a bit like excuses in hindsight for a poor start.

Who exactly are these players who you believe are suffering/not performing due to this 4 year cycle thing?

No I didn’t, because first and foremost I am a fan. I can’t predict the future and I don’t know everything that is going to happen. And even if it is a post-hoc argument, so what? I start the season as a fan with the same sense of hope and optimism as anyone else. But if things go wrong I’m going to try and weigh up all the factors to see what makes most sense to me. On the spectrum of ‘Poch is now a brick manager’ to ‘We’re at the end of a cycle, a bunch of core players don’t want to be here anymore and we haven’t been able to refresh’, I lean on the latter side of the scale.