Maggie

[Danishfurniturelover]

Also to however it was saying how much greater Germany and France have it then us in Britain, France has as many problems as us if not more with an outdated social system and a uncompetitive 35 hour working week and the whole point of the EU was so Germany could take over europe but this time by peaceful means.

It worked out pretty well for them, this is the Germany that after the second world war the world including us helped to rebuild yet Britain was not afforded the same privilege no we had to take a loan from the Americans which we were still paying off into the 1990's.

Can you not remember what a lot of the industry were like before she came to power can you not remember the problems this country had? im struggling massively to think people here lived through a different time. I remember how bad some of our national industries were it honestly seems like i was living in a different country to some on this site.

Yet people at the time clearly remembered which is why they voted for her time and again. Of course i ever hear at the moment is this odd divide and rule phrase, except it was not divide and rule if you believed in the message she was putting across. Just like how if the tories had the guts to actually go after welfare now like they should it would not be divide and rule because the are a lot of people who think it is right. Even millband is sending out tough messages on welfare now he sees public support behind it.

It was the same with blair and brown they knew how popular some of her polices were, we were not duped into voting for her, we knew what she was and we voted for her because of it and because of her message.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I will say two things though

I do think the unions needed to be brought to heel. They were becoming ridiculous in their conduct.

We need to cut the North loose. Anything above Cambridge

Hey mate i think the world is going to end because we just agreed on something in a political thread though im worried you were not completely serious on the last point

 

[Sheffield Spur]

If Surrey didn't suffer from de-industrialisation that is because it did not benefit from it either. We had some manufacturing from the war era that had soaked up the loss of jobs from the mechanisation of the farms pre-war but those factories all shut in the southern recession of the early nineties.

There were not ready made jobs to those people to move into and the gap was slowly bridged by embracing free enterprise.

It was the pace of change that did for the mining communities, but I refuse to believe that significant progress has not already been made.

What makes us conservative down here is our resistance to rapid and radical change, and we are not responsible for Thatcherism but admittedly did not generally oppose it.

You are right. The pace of change was far too rapid for an area of high population like the mining areas. Its the sheer numbers that make it even more of a disaster, because remember these industries were very labour intensive and the main employment in the area, by a long way. Ditto steel and engineering. Surrey may have had some losses, as you say, but not the catestrophic losses in huge numbers and in a short period that happened in S.Yorks. Closures came quickly, but replacement jobs and alternatives?? That's what hasn't happened. If you look back in this thread you will see my comments on Grimethorpe.

So I would say significant progress has not been made. What has most certainly not happened - as stated elsewhere - is massive funds being pumped into the area, whether by Tory or Labour Governments. For example, Sheffield lost its main industrial and job base but not one single major employer has moved in after, to take up the slack.

 

[scaramanga]

For example, Sheffield lost its main industrial and job base but not one single major employer has moved in after, to take up the slack.

Interesting point this. It does make you wonder why major employers aren't interested in the area. Transport is decent, rent is minimal. My suspicion (although nothing more than that) is that the entrenched beliefs of a workforce are unappealing.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Also to however it was saying how much greater Germany and France have it then us in Britain, France has as many problems as us if not more with an outdated social system and a uncompetitive 35 hour working week and the whole point of the EU was so Germany could take over europe but this time by peaceful means.

It worked out pretty well for them, this is the Germany that after the second world war the world including us helped to rebuild yet Britain was not afforded the same privilege no we had to take a loan from the Americans which we were still paying off into the 1990's.

Can you not remember what a lot of the industry were like before she came to power can you not remember the problems this country had? im struggling massively to think people here lived through a different time. I remember how bad some of our national industries were it honestly seems like i was living in a different country to some on this site.

Yet people at the time clearly remembered which is why they voted for her time and again. Of course i ever hear at the moment is this odd divide and rule phrase, except it was not divide and rule if you believed in the message she was putting across. Just like how if the tories had the guts to actually go after welfare now like they should it would not be divide and rule because the are a lot of people who think it is right. Even millband is sending out tough messages on welfare now he sees public support behind it.

It was the same with blair and brown they knew how popular some of her polices were, we were not duped into voting for her, we knew what she was and we voted for her because of it and because of her message.

All my life, the only experience I had of British industry was people telling me it didn't exist anymore. That it was something mythical in the black-and-white past, before we came to rely on banksters and fraudsters as our main source of national revenue. And what a pride and joy that's been.

There were problems with the industries, as there will always be problems when one class or another over-reaches for political and social power. The unions grew too big, and didn't listen when compromise was offered: inflation-busting wages were turned down because they felt they could get more, and power cuts and strikes once a year were accepted practise.

For this, Thatcher destroyed them. All of them. Destroyed the North, destroyed the mines, and finally, put in place policies that would lead to the destruction of the factories.

Justified response? Like I said, history will decide. But the funny thing is, the service sector based in the City (i.e, the lovely banksters) played with Credit Default Swaps and fudged us over, sending us into what is now likely to become a triple recession. Yet we do not see them being destroyed, as Thatcher destroyed the unions and the North. No, they are given passes and we are patted on the head and told that we must not hobble our one remaining industry, and that they all deserve their bonuses because they're ever so sorry.

This political inequality is what drives the hatred towards Thatcher. The sense that it was never about fixing Britain, or our industries. It was about permanently destroying the working class that had built up in the period after the war, about putting them in their place and transferring their wealth to the few Southern middle and upper-class Tory voters because that's who Thatcher really wanted to see benefit from her policies. Not the nation as a whole, and certainly not the voting poor.

 

[scaramanga]

All my life, the only experience I had of British industry was people telling me it didn't exist anymore. That it was something mythical in the black-and-white past, before we came to rely on banksters and fraudsters as our main source of national revenue. And what a pride and joy that's been.

There were problems with the industries, as there will always be problems when one class or another over-reaches for political and social power. The unions grew too big, and didn't listen when compromise was offered: inflation-busting wages were turned down because they felt they could get more, and power cuts and strikes once a year were accepted practise.

For this, Thatcher destroyed them. All of them. Destroyed the North, destroyed the mines, and finally, put in place policies that would lead to the destruction of the factories.

Justified response? Like I said, history will decide. But the funny thing is, the service sector based in the City (i.e, the lovely banksters) played with Credit Default Swaps and fudged us over, sending us into what is now likely to become a triple recession. Yet we do not see them being destroyed, as Thatcher destroyed the unions and the North. No, they are given passes and we are patted on the head and told that we must not hobble our one remaining industry, and that they all deserve their bonuses because they're ever so sorry.

This political inequality is what drives the hatred towards Thatcher. The sense that it was never about fixing Britain, or our industries. It was about permanently destroying the working class that had built up in the period after the war, about putting them in their place and transferring their wealth to the few Southern middle and upper-class Tory voters because that's who Thatcher really wanted to see benefit from her policies. Not the nation as a whole, and certainly not the voting poor.

That's nothing but myth and rhetoric invented by those who see being anything other than working class as inherently wrong an those who failed to take the opportunities Thatcher gave them.

The working class were finally able to own homes and shares - something never possible before. They were also able to make huge amounts of money - literally millions in the City - something that had previously been the reserve of the upper class, not even middle class.

My parents are the perfect example of what Thatcher created. When I grew up my parents were incredibly poor. We probably wouldn't have been described as in poverty, but we were about as close as it gets. Thanks to the work Thatcher did my parents are now in a position where they'll be extremely comfortable for the rest of their lives - a lifestyle my grandparents wouldn't even recognise.

I'm fortunate enough never to have had to work in a pre-Thatcher Britain, but I'm constantly glad of the work she did for those of us that want to work now.

 

[Richie]

The opposition to things like regional pay are why the north is still struggling. If it costs the same to set up no matter where you are in the country, why be anywhere but around London and its major infrastructure?

 

[DubaiSpur]

That's nothing but myth and rhetoric invented by those who see being anything other than working class as inherently wrong an those who failed to take the opportunities Thatcher gave them.

The working class were finally able to own homes and shares - something never possible before. They were also able to make huge amounts of money - literally millions in the City - something that had previously been the reserve of the upper class, not even middle class.

My parents are the perfect example of what Thatcher created. When I grew up my parents were incredibly poor. We probably wouldn't have been described as in poverty, but we were about as close as it gets. Thanks to the work Thatcher did my parents are now in a position where they'll be extremely comfortable for the rest of their lives - a lifestyle my grandparents wouldn't even recognise.

I'm fortunate enough never to have had to work in a pre-Thatcher Britain, but I'm constantly glad of the work she did for those of us that want to work now.

makkag's post puts it perfectly:

"The cultural revolution during her time in office mirrored the economic revolution. When she arrived in office, 67 per cent of the country belonged to the C2DE economic class – the so-called working class – but when she left office that had fallen to just 51 per cent and has continued to collapse, according to Ipsos Mori. Aspiration was unleashed. "

Wealth moved away from the working class, and towards a narrow, focused band of people. Loadsamoney!

I'm running out of ways to describe what aspiration really means, but never mind. For every success story like your family's, there are a larger number of stories of depression, hopelessness and welfare dependency in the north. For every family like yours, there are those that were never able to retrain, refocus or adapt to the changing circumstances because their home-towns were utterly devastated by the loss of the principal industries they were built around.

Those millions in the City had to come from somewhere: it is, in the end, a zero-sum game. Though I suspect that doesn't ultimately matter to those who believe the only reason people don't get jobs is because they have pre-entrenched 'beliefs' about things they believed they once had a right to. Not everyone is enamoured of the rat-race Thatcher forced us all into.

But you wont change, I won't change, the north won't change and the rabid dog-eat-dog capitalism that is seeing our wealth stashed away in the Virgin Islands while we scrabble to cut police, ambulance, emergency and NHS services...that won't change.
And, for probably the last time, history will judge her for what she did. And she will not be judged based on what she did for a minority of people, but for what she did to the country as a whole, as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland.

So, if no one's changing their minds (quite apt, given the lady was never one for turning), then this discussion only serves to dredge up bitter sentiments and political tensions on both sides of the divide, and thus serves no useful purpose.

Thank you for listening to me over the last few pages, it's been therapeutic. I'm done. She's dead, I've said what I've had to say, and I'd like to focus on what can be done on repairing this broken society we now live in as opposed to the person who, in my opinion, caused nearly all of it.

' Well I hope you live long now, I pray the Lord
your soul to keep
I think I'll be going before we fold our arms
and start to weep
I never thought for a moment that human life
could be so cheap
'Cos when they finally put you in the ground
They'll stand there laughing and tramp the dirt down. '

 

[Superhudd]

The era before Thatcher was 10 times worse.

That is all.

 

[DubaiSpur]

The era before Thatcher was 10 times worse.

That is all.

Yep, garbage is infinitely worse than most of that.


See, anyone can take an image or two, add a snarky line and project an air of certainty.

 

[Richie]

Dubai, I'm not going to quote your entire post but you alluded to the idea that the economy is a zero sum game, that for the south/middle class to prosper the north/working class had to suffer. This is wholly and completely wrong.

 

[Superhudd]

Yep, garbage is infinitely worse than most of that.


See, anyone can take an image or two, add a snarky line and project an air of certainty.

Mine was from Leicester Square during the 3 day week. Was yours recent? Mayday riots, 7-11 and Tottenham? Just saying.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Mine was from Leicester Square during the 3 day week. Was yours recent? Mayday riots, 7-11 and Tottenham? Just saying.

Orgreave 1984, Falklands casualties and Tottenham. One a miners' strike , the second a field hospital for the casualties Maggie didn't want marching alongside returning vets because it would spoil her political image and the third a symptom of post-Maggie hopelessness. And if you can claim the era before thatcher was all garbage in Leicester Square, I can claim the era post-thatcher was all urban drift, relentless misery and squalor, leading up to the Tottenham Riots.

Like I said, images are pointless in politicised debates, and your argument would be a lot more credible if you just stated what you thought in your own words instead of tacking an entire era of British history behind one picture of a garbage-filled square.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Dubai, I'm not going to quote your entire post but you alluded to the idea that the economy is a zero sum game, that for the south/middle class to prosper the north/working class had to suffer. This is wholly and completely wrong.

The idea came from an interview with David Steel conducted by the Independent at the turn of the century that I still remember, talking about how Maggie's policies destroyed Northern England. I did imagine you wouldn't agree, and would be happy to listen to your reasons for it later, on either this or the '21 trillion pounds' thread. In fact, I'l probably ask you myself.

But for now, I want to get as far away from all mention of this woman as possible. It's given me a headache just talking about her.

 

[Superhudd]

You seem very well written for DubaiSpur, and seem to have lived in the Thatcher years. I thought you were a kid living in the arab states when I first read your posts when you posted on the old Stadium thread regarding Arab sponsorship. Its almost like you have aged 30 years in a blink.

 

[johnola]

That third picture would be about ten years into new labours tenure, about fifteen after Thatcher.

Haha!

 

[Superhudd]

Anyone else agree that the Poll Tax was/is better than the Council Tax.

 

[Superhudd]

1978 Jaws 2 released, under Labour rule. Who actually ran the country!?.. government or the over sized pot bellied union masters across the country.

In the Thatcher years at least the country got back on its feet.. I suggest we would be like Greece otherwise, work when we feel like it whilst paying no taxes, then look at each other wondering why the country was fudged, blaming everyone but ourselves.

 

[DubaiSpur]

You seem very well written for DubaiSpur, and seem to have lived in the Thatcher years. I thought you were a kid living in the arab states when I first read your posts when you posted on the old Stadium thread regarding Arab sponsorship. Its almost like you have aged 30 years in a blink.

I am a kid. I don't deny it. I was barely out of my toddler shorts when the Conservatives stabbed Maggie in the back, and spent my formative and teenage years in Dubai, blissfully unaware of the reasons why my parents moved or what became of my many relatives still living in the north of England whom I'd never met or even seen.

But I have enough of a grasp on history, and enough stories garnered from the family members I know who were part of the great industrial masses she destroyed, to form my own opinions. I've gone from the UK, to the UAE, to the UK again and then on to Canada, and have seen the best and worst of all three countries. I've had enough of an advanced education to analyse why that is so. And my conclusions point me in one direction when it comes to the UK.

If I seem to have lived in the Thatcher years, it is because a large portion of my university career was spent exhaustively studying them, writing about them and listening to my relatives rage against them. I certainly do not mean to deceive people as to my origins or my past.

 

[DubaiSpur]

That third picture would be about ten years into new labours tenure, about fifteen after Thatcher.

Haha!

Point being, if garbage on the streets can be said to have been permanently displayed pre-Thatcher, then equally the Tottenham riots and social unrest can be said to have been direct products of life after Thatcher.

Pictures can be made to prove many points.