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Liverpool thread
- Thread starter southstand1882
- Start date
What utter nonsense.
Liverpool fans charged at Juve fans in an adjoining section, having been provoked for a good half hour by Juve fans throwing missiles. When the Liverpool fans charged, the Juve fans fled. Their flight was what caused the crush. And the crush was what caused the weak and inadequate wall to collapse. And the collapse of the wall is what led to the tragic death of so many Juve fans.
Should Liverpool fans have charged? Of course not. But then, Juve fans shouldn't have provoked them. UEFA shouldn't have put the two sets of fans in adjoining sections, with no proper segregation. UEFA shouldn't have held the game at a clearly inadequate and antiquated stadium (Liverpool begged them to hold it elsewhere). The Belgian police should have intervened quicker and realised that the provocation and likelihood of a response was escalating.
Should Liverpool fans accept their share of the blame for the tragedy? Absolutely. Just as every other party should.
But "mass murder"?
fudging stupid and ignorant thing to say.
Quite embarrassing this thread
It is, let's hope GG crashes again so we lose it forever...
Sheffield Spur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
So now its official. The police and authorities are to blame 100%. Not the fans, at all. From the moment the Leppings Lane gates were opened, I would agree that is the case, and suspected it to be so for a long time.
The Bill had a chain of command, and clearly those at the top were to blame. If you saw the TV programme on ITV on Hillsborough, the other night, you will have seen Trevor Hicks (lost both his daughters at Hillsborough) very graciously credit many bobbies on the ground, so many of the Joe Average 'footsoldier' bobbies did a good job, improvising in fast-moving and unimaginable circumstances. Without being trained? I also suspected this to be the case. Look at how many of the coppers statements were changed.
If a senior copper and a 'local politician' 'leaked' damming information to the press just after the catastrophe, to 'deflect' towards the fans (as was reported yesterday), who were they? Has it been admitted yet? If the copper was the senior one in charge on the day (Dukinfield), he is utterly finished. The second in command at Hillsborough has since died. Who was the local politician? Again, this is key information to see just how far the cover-up extended. A local politician involvement then extends the cover-up into local politics, at least. Read on.
Apparently SWFC did not have a valid safety certificate in 1989, as was TV reported yesterday. ?????? This is incredulous. Why not? (it was granted by Sheffield City Council, at the time, as reported yesterday). Without a safety certificate, there should not have been so much as a marbles match there, let alone a major football match. SWFC should not have played any games either. So how is it, that they were? And for how long?
On the Look North programme on BBC1, yesterday teatime, the woman presenter spoke to Clive Betts, Sheffield MP, on videolink. Betts was the leader of Sheffield City Council in 1989. When pressed on the issue of the lack of the safety certificate at SWFC, and the council's involvement at the time, he looked very uncomfortable, and avoided answering the question. He responded (twice) by saying that Sheffield City Council had answered all questions back at the time. Well, that may so Betts, but much of what was said in the aftermath of Hillsborough has now been proven to be UNTRUE. How far does this extend? I have my suspicions...
Also, how much involvement did SWFC have in this issue? Did the cover-up extend into them too? They absolutely had to know they didn't have a safety certificate, but they certainly didn't mind the cash to continue rolling in at the turnstiles. Still, where theres muck, there's brass, as is said in these parts. The then long standing Owls Chairman was Bert McGee. He retired not long afterwards. Dave Richards (of FA fame) took over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Richards
Lots to think about, as is said in Escape To The Country.
I would like to sprinkle in some words and names which may, or may not be connected:
Sup. Dukinfield and his second in command
'early retirement'
Dore Golf Club
'local politicians'
Freemasonry.
Where I am very uncomfortable regarding fans, is prior to the gates being opened. Only on that, no 'guilty' fans would ever admit to any wrongdoing, would they? And certainly not now. 1970's and 1980's English football, and mobbing up to get in without tickets was widespread. Instant anonimity would be found once inside because of standing areas.
Football following in those two decades was rather different than now. Let me think of one choice example: SWFC fans at Rotherham. 1970's. Killed a police dog and threw it over a wall. Classy..... Spurs, MUFC, Chelsea, WHU, Saudi Sportswashing Machine had shocking reputations for trouble, and others. Some fans were utter scum then. Born in the gutter, live in the gutter and die in the gutter. Not all, of course.
Conclusion and Perspective
I have been a Spurs fan for 47 years (since I was 5), and I was in Hillsborough in 1981, for our semi final against Wolves. I was on the kop with the Wolves fans. I saw it all unfold opposite. My Liverpool-fan workmate here in 1989, had moved from Liverpool with his young family. He was on the Leppings Lane end that day, thankfully in the wings. He had months of counselling after. I could have had a ticket, and turned it down. My dad died of a heart attack in 1990. Aged 55. In our family, on both sides, there were shedloads of daughters, and three sons. Two sons were killed in car crashes (one at 17. On a life support machine, and his parents decided to turn it off. An impossible choice). I am the last in the line. I have a 13 year old son (and a Yid from birth). The youngest to die in Hillsborough was 10. I shudder at the thought of that.
The point I am trying to make is that there is so much brick in the world, it doesn't have to be increased by stupidity and ignorance, including on here.
As a final point, my very long standing mate is a fireman, and was on the pitch, helping, that day in 1989. He saw unspeakable sights. A body flattened, and the eyeballs exploded out by crushing (and worse than that). Ironically, he got the brick kicked out of him by Spurs fans at WHL, in the late 1970's. I find bitter irony in that.
Some of the comments on here defy belief, bringing shame to THFC supporters. It must stop. Now.
The Bill had a chain of command, and clearly those at the top were to blame. If you saw the TV programme on ITV on Hillsborough, the other night, you will have seen Trevor Hicks (lost both his daughters at Hillsborough) very graciously credit many bobbies on the ground, so many of the Joe Average 'footsoldier' bobbies did a good job, improvising in fast-moving and unimaginable circumstances. Without being trained? I also suspected this to be the case. Look at how many of the coppers statements were changed.
If a senior copper and a 'local politician' 'leaked' damming information to the press just after the catastrophe, to 'deflect' towards the fans (as was reported yesterday), who were they? Has it been admitted yet? If the copper was the senior one in charge on the day (Dukinfield), he is utterly finished. The second in command at Hillsborough has since died. Who was the local politician? Again, this is key information to see just how far the cover-up extended. A local politician involvement then extends the cover-up into local politics, at least. Read on.
Apparently SWFC did not have a valid safety certificate in 1989, as was TV reported yesterday. ?????? This is incredulous. Why not? (it was granted by Sheffield City Council, at the time, as reported yesterday). Without a safety certificate, there should not have been so much as a marbles match there, let alone a major football match. SWFC should not have played any games either. So how is it, that they were? And for how long?
On the Look North programme on BBC1, yesterday teatime, the woman presenter spoke to Clive Betts, Sheffield MP, on videolink. Betts was the leader of Sheffield City Council in 1989. When pressed on the issue of the lack of the safety certificate at SWFC, and the council's involvement at the time, he looked very uncomfortable, and avoided answering the question. He responded (twice) by saying that Sheffield City Council had answered all questions back at the time. Well, that may so Betts, but much of what was said in the aftermath of Hillsborough has now been proven to be UNTRUE. How far does this extend? I have my suspicions...
Also, how much involvement did SWFC have in this issue? Did the cover-up extend into them too? They absolutely had to know they didn't have a safety certificate, but they certainly didn't mind the cash to continue rolling in at the turnstiles. Still, where theres muck, there's brass, as is said in these parts. The then long standing Owls Chairman was Bert McGee. He retired not long afterwards. Dave Richards (of FA fame) took over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Richards
Lots to think about, as is said in Escape To The Country.
I would like to sprinkle in some words and names which may, or may not be connected:
Sup. Dukinfield and his second in command
'early retirement'
Dore Golf Club
'local politicians'
Freemasonry.
Where I am very uncomfortable regarding fans, is prior to the gates being opened. Only on that, no 'guilty' fans would ever admit to any wrongdoing, would they? And certainly not now. 1970's and 1980's English football, and mobbing up to get in without tickets was widespread. Instant anonimity would be found once inside because of standing areas.
Football following in those two decades was rather different than now. Let me think of one choice example: SWFC fans at Rotherham. 1970's. Killed a police dog and threw it over a wall. Classy..... Spurs, MUFC, Chelsea, WHU, Saudi Sportswashing Machine had shocking reputations for trouble, and others. Some fans were utter scum then. Born in the gutter, live in the gutter and die in the gutter. Not all, of course.
Conclusion and Perspective
I have been a Spurs fan for 47 years (since I was 5), and I was in Hillsborough in 1981, for our semi final against Wolves. I was on the kop with the Wolves fans. I saw it all unfold opposite. My Liverpool-fan workmate here in 1989, had moved from Liverpool with his young family. He was on the Leppings Lane end that day, thankfully in the wings. He had months of counselling after. I could have had a ticket, and turned it down. My dad died of a heart attack in 1990. Aged 55. In our family, on both sides, there were shedloads of daughters, and three sons. Two sons were killed in car crashes (one at 17. On a life support machine, and his parents decided to turn it off. An impossible choice). I am the last in the line. I have a 13 year old son (and a Yid from birth). The youngest to die in Hillsborough was 10. I shudder at the thought of that.
The point I am trying to make is that there is so much brick in the world, it doesn't have to be increased by stupidity and ignorance, including on here.
As a final point, my very long standing mate is a fireman, and was on the pitch, helping, that day in 1989. He saw unspeakable sights. A body flattened, and the eyeballs exploded out by crushing (and worse than that). Ironically, he got the brick kicked out of him by Spurs fans at WHL, in the late 1970's. I find bitter irony in that.
Some of the comments on here defy belief, bringing shame to THFC supporters. It must stop. Now.
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Didn't they nearly cause a disaster in Rome the year before? Do you think this justice campaign will stop now or will they try and get the accidental death verdict overturned, possibly into Manslaughter or more perhaps... Didn't the then Liverpool manager have to make a plea for the Liverpool fans to calm as their actions under influence in Heysel caused this tragedy?
I thought my post was quite clear that they were jointly responsible, with pretty much everyone else involved in the match, for what happened.
The point I was getting at is that it is stupid, ignorant and irresponsible to use such inflammatory and preposterous language as "mass murder".
I love the fact that some people say they should 'move on' yet all those who still want to blame the Scousers keep referring to Heysel. There is no link to Hillsborough from Heysel. I hated Liverpool fans as much as any when they go us all banned from Europe but Hillsborough is not connected in any way as there is no evidence to suggest fans misbehaved.
Who were they rioting with - other Liverpool fans? As I said earlier, Spurs fans similarly rioted in Feyenoord in 74. When our fans were crushed at Hillsborough in 81, there was no link between the two. It is quite ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
Who were they rioting with - other Liverpool fans? As I said earlier, Spurs fans similarly rioted in Feyenoord in 74. When our fans were crushed at Hillsborough in 81, there was no link between the two. It is quite ludicrous to suggest otherwise.
Perhaps that was a exaggeration, however, I'm sure the relatives of the 39 are not calling it an unfortunate incident...
no one is denying what happened as heysal was bad and that liverpool fans were culpable, what people are disputing (and returner has phrased it brilliantly above) is that the heysal disaster is somehow evidence that liverpool fans were to blame for hillsborough, or the vile assertion that liverpool fans deserved what they got at hillsborough for the role they played in heysal, it's not difficult!
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
Its a football forum. No one ever admits they were wrong about anything here.
Very true. I guess there will always be people who prefer to believe corrupt police officers, politicians and the likes of Kelvin McKenzie - even when it has been proven they lied. And when all else fails, use very poor humour. This place hasn't changed a bit!
tommysvr
Paul Stalteri
One thing that confuses me is the amount of passion people have for a subject that never has or never will affect them. Most of them are Liverpool fans but clearly some on here take this very personally. Maybe it's because you were there in 81 and believe it could easily have been you, or maybe it's because of the cover up stuff. But I just find it strange....a little bit like those who mourn the death of celebrities to an extreme level.
It was a tragedy and is very sad. But it happens every day. I'm just not sure why Hillsborough is the one major football event that gets people so emotional.
It was a tragedy and is very sad. But it happens every day. I'm just not sure why Hillsborough is the one major football event that gets people so emotional.
thfcsteff
Teddy Sheringham
Sorry,stupid phone...anyway. Heysel. Those of us who are old enough will know that this match became a focal point for some sort of stupid 'revenge' thing bleeding over from the 1980 euros. Thus several sides had their 'firms' out there trolling for violence. The most common were the headhunters. I sadly knew some idi
thfcsteff
Teddy Sheringham
idiot from school who lopped over there for trouble (16 year old taco) and there were many. It wasn't all them obviously, but it wasn't all to do with scousers by any stretch. As for the assertion that Heysel had anything to do with Hillsborough, well, all I can say is that's just false-generalist ignorance at its worst.