Knee jerk thread,

[We are Tottenham]

Tbh, I believe a lot of different parties are at "fault" here - Levy, AVB, bad luck with injuries, Miss VdV's illness and Modric's understandable hankering for better things, our scouting team, Porto, reality (in terms of the fact our rivals can outspend us by hundreds of millions), and our own boo-happy fans. There's no single reason - everything adds up into a feedback cycle that magnifies and reinforces our issues.

In truth, I think the fundamental problem still goes back to our mutilated squad, and that goes back to money (= our small stadium, or Joe Lewis not being a sugardaddy). Iirc it was Soccernomics that showed an incredible correlation between wages and finishing position in the league, and we have the sixth highest wages at best, while trying to squeeze into a tier of rivals who have *substantially* more money than us. Even on paper, I don't think we have any better than a midtable squad this year because we are so lacking in crucial qualities - not just creativity and vision and intelligence, but the basic ability to keep the ball under pressure, and to press ourselves (which I am definitely looking at AVB for).

Now, could we have backed up AVB better in the summer window? I think so, if we had not spent on both Dempsey and Sig (one is enough, thanks) and instead put that money into the one player AVB was desperate for - but then again, who knows what shenanigans Porto was up to at the last minute? So it's hard for me to blame Levy entirely. He is working within severe limitations - realistically we can't afford long-term salaries on the level of Bale and Ade, esp without CL, and still splash record transfer fees, but we have to pay that anyways or lose them to reality and risk a fan riot. Football as a sport is like a runaway hamster wheel - you have to pay more and more just to stay in the same position, so every year it gets harder and harder to compete.

At the same time, we ought to have enough talent and money to be outplaying, or at least controlling the game, against the likes of Norwich and Wigan. Here is where AVB needs to earn his dough. I don't need to see some brilliant swagger from a team that really doesn't have much, certainly not consistently, but I think even the most talentless donkeys (which we are not) can show much higher workrate and some actual pressing and composure on the ball ... at least as much as Wigan or Swansea. AVB has compounded the problem by not starting Ade and Lloris, while the loss of our five highest passers from last season - BAE, Parker, and Ade to injury/selection, and Modric and VdV to other teams - has deprived us of players who are actually interested in the ball and who might touch it more than ten times a game.

To that end, I'm also pointing to Everton as an example that you can still find talent even without much money if you have the right scouts, and to Swansea as an example that you don't necessarily need the most talented players to still control midfield. So ... our scouts. What the fudge are they doing? Yeah, ok, the money thing sucks, but we're not totally helpless here. If we're going to compete we need maximum concentration and commitment from everyone in our squad, a better go at things from AVB and Levy, and more creative scouts and a better youth system (which tbf, we are working on).

And finally, the fans. Seriously, I know we're frustrating to watch but we're not helping things here if we're booing our own club. When the going gets tough we ought to be more supportive, not less. Because our team needs us right now. And yet - I can understand the frustration of someone who pays a ridiculous amount of his or her hard-earned money to watch these turgid displays every week. It's not ideal, but to me it's understandable, and it goes back to the reality of football as a rigged game, a hamster wheel spinning itself off the brink to oblivion, demanding more and more blood to feed itself. Maybe when the bubble bursts, our connection to football will come back. For now, I think we have to ride out the ugly transition period.

I don,t think the booing had anything to do with todays result.

We were so poor....and lucky to get 0.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Tbh, I believe a lot of different parties are at "fault" here - Levy, AVB, bad luck with injuries, Miss VdV's illness and Modric's understandable hankering for better things, our scouting team, Porto, reality (in terms of the fact our rivals can outspend us by hundreds of millions), and our own boo-happy fans. There's no single reason - everything adds up into a feedback cycle that magnifies and reinforces our issues.

In truth, I think the fundamental problem still goes back to our mutilated squad, and that goes back to money (= our small stadium, or Joe Lewis not being a sugardaddy). Iirc it was Soccernomics that showed an incredible correlation between wages and finishing position in the league, and we have the sixth highest wages at best, while trying to squeeze into a tier of rivals who have *substantially* more money than us. Even on paper, I don't think we have any better than a midtable squad this year because we are so lacking in crucial qualities - not just creativity and vision and intelligence, but the basic ability to keep the ball under pressure, and to press ourselves (which I am definitely looking at AVB for).

Now, could we have backed up AVB better in the summer window? I think so, if we had not spent on both Dempsey and Sig (one is enough, thanks) and instead put that money into the one player AVB was desperate for - but then again, who knows what shenanigans Porto was up to at the last minute? So it's hard for me to blame Levy entirely. He is working within severe limitations - realistically we can't afford long-term salaries on the level of Bale and Ade, esp without CL, and still splash record transfer fees, but we have to pay that anyways or lose them to reality and risk a fan riot. Football as a sport is like a runaway hamster wheel - you have to pay more and more just to stay in the same position, so every year it gets harder and harder to compete.

At the same time, we ought to have enough talent and money to be outplaying, or at least controlling the game, against the likes of Norwich and Wigan. Here is where AVB needs to earn his dough. I don't need to see some brilliant swagger from a team that really doesn't have much, certainly not consistently, but I think even the most talentless donkeys (which we are not) can show much higher workrate and some actual pressing and composure on the ball ... at least as much as Wigan or Swansea. AVB has compounded the problem by not starting Ade and Lloris, while the loss of our five highest passers from last season - BAE, Parker, and Ade to injury/selection, and Modric and VdV to other teams - has deprived us of players who are actually interested in the ball and who might touch it more than ten times a game.

To that end, I'm also pointing to Everton as an example that you can still find talent even without much money if you have the right scouts, and to Swansea as an example that you don't necessarily need the most talented players to still control midfield. So ... our scouts. What the fudge are they doing? Yeah, ok, the money thing sucks, but we're not totally helpless here. If we're going to compete we need maximum concentration and commitment from everyone in our squad, a better go at things from AVB and Levy, and more creative scouts and a better youth system (which tbf, we are working on).

And finally, the fans. Seriously, I know we're frustrating to watch but we're not helping things here if we're booing our own club. When the going gets tough we ought to be more supportive, not less. Because our team needs us right now. And yet - I can understand the frustration of someone who pays a ridiculous amount of his or her hard-earned money to watch these turgid displays every week. It's not ideal, but to me it's understandable, and it goes back to the reality of football as a rigged game, a hamster wheel spinning itself off the brink to oblivion, demanding more and more blood to feed itself. Maybe when the bubble bursts, our connection to football will come back. For now, I think we have to ride out the ugly transition period.

This post will look even better when the cold light of day returns=D>

 

[charlietheyid]

Tbh, I believe a lot of different parties are at "fault" here - Levy, AVB, bad luck with injuries, Miss VdV's illness and Modric's understandable hankering for better things, our scouting team, Porto, reality (in terms of the fact our rivals can outspend us by hundreds of millions), and our own boo-happy fans. There's no single reason - everything adds up into a feedback cycle that magnifies and reinforces our issues.

In truth, I think the fundamental problem still goes back to our mutilated squad, and that goes back to money (= our small stadium, or Joe Lewis not being a sugardaddy). Iirc it was Soccernomics that showed an incredible correlation between wages and finishing position in the league, and we have the sixth highest wages at best, while trying to squeeze into a tier of rivals who have *substantially* more money than us. Even on paper, I don't think we have any better than a midtable squad this year because we are so lacking in crucial qualities - not just creativity and vision and intelligence, but the basic ability to keep the ball under pressure, and to press ourselves (which I am definitely looking at AVB for).

Now, could we have backed up AVB better in the summer window? I think so, if we had not spent on both Dempsey and Sig (one is enough, thanks) and instead put that money into the one player AVB was desperate for - but then again, who knows what shenanigans Porto was up to at the last minute? So it's hard for me to blame Levy entirely. He is working within severe limitations - realistically we can't afford long-term salaries on the level of Bale and Ade, esp without CL, and still splash record transfer fees, but we have to pay that anyways or lose them to reality and risk a fan riot. Football as a sport is like a runaway hamster wheel - you have to pay more and more just to stay in the same position, so every year it gets harder and harder to compete.

At the same time, we ought to have enough talent and money to be outplaying, or at least controlling the game, against the likes of Norwich and Wigan. Here is where AVB needs to earn his dough. I don't need to see some brilliant swagger from a team that really doesn't have much, certainly not consistently, but I think even the most talentless donkeys (which we are not) can show much higher workrate and some actual pressing and composure on the ball ... at least as much as Wigan or Swansea. AVB has compounded the problem by not starting Ade and Lloris, while the loss of our five highest passers from last season - BAE, Parker, and Ade to injury/selection, and Modric and VdV to other teams - has deprived us of players who are actually interested in the ball and who might touch it more than ten times a game.

To that end, I'm also pointing to Everton as an example that you can still find talent even without much money if you have the right scouts, and to Swansea as an example that you don't necessarily need the most talented players to still control midfield. So ... our scouts. What the fudge are they doing? Yeah, ok, the money thing sucks, but we're not totally helpless here. If we're going to compete we need maximum concentration and commitment from everyone in our squad, a better go at things from AVB and Levy, and more creative scouts and a better youth system (which tbf, we are working on).

And finally, the fans. Seriously, I know we're frustrating to watch but we're not helping things here if we're booing our own club. When the going gets tough we ought to be more supportive, not less. Because our team needs us right now. And yet - I can understand the frustration of someone who pays a ridiculous amount of his or her hard-earned money to watch these turgid displays every week. It's not ideal, but to me it's understandable, and it goes back to the reality of football as a rigged game, a hamster wheel spinning itself off the brink to oblivion, demanding more and more blood to feed itself. Maybe when the bubble bursts, our connection to football will come back. For now, I think we have to ride out the ugly transition period.

Good post.

 

[onlyme]

Good post.

You read it all? A summary would be nice for others.

 

[skyfarer]

You read it all? A summary would be nice for others.

I can give you a tl;dr: reality sucks, everyone's been sucking at least a little, must try better

(unsurprisingly, my senior econ thesis was 200 pages...in size 8 font)

In all honesty I'm just surprised at the amount of "it's Levy's fault" versus "it's AVB's fault" versus "but we've got injuries and it's not actually that bad" going on. To me just about everyone shares the blame and could do better, but I understand where there are issues out of everyone's control, and I can also understand some decisions that in hindsight have turned out pretty bad (e.g. the summer transfer window). I have a pretty fatalistic view of football as a whole and these days I often ruminate more about the long-term direction of the sport than just Spurs. Same thing for the economy (it's silly season over here in the U.S., thanks to the election).

 

[Pirate55]

It will be interesting to see how long AVB continues to start with 4-2-3-1 at home. Unless we are playing a three man midfield, or one of the top teams and we want to stifle them at the beginning of the game, I can't see any point in it. The opposition knows exactly how we are we going to line up, and we give them a nice 45 minutes to get into the game and get a bit of self-belief while we pass the ball backwards and forwards across the defence.

What are we doing starting with two defensive midfielders against Wigan? It says 'we're afraid you might score' rather than 'we are going to stuff you at our home ground'. It is crap psychology. It is crap football tactics too.

=D>

 

[DHSF]

We were brick utter brick today but for me what really made me lose the plot was the substitution. I made a joke five minutes before the sub that I wouldnt be surprised if AVB subs Defoe for Ade - but I was fudging joking. arghhhhh.

I am hopeful in that this performance today really does make AVB think and change the way we play at home in particular. He seems like a stubborn guy (some may call it faith in his system) but im hopeful today was the straw that makes him become more attack minded and less defense orientated.

 

[SlumDilla]

1) Sandro injury - you ask why, because more than likely AVB will be forced to play youth in the EL instead of risking and pushing our first teamers for that competition.
2) Tom Carroll - good to see him get game time, even tho Falque should've come in instead he showed some composed passing and had a superb tackle towards the end of the game. We should see him get EL and FA Cup game starts.
3) Sigurdsson as a CM - Not a great performance but there were flashes of what he can do in that position. Actually showed great energy, not great in the tackle but does hussle and harass opposition players. Would much rather him than Hudd next to sandro for the next match.

 

[glorygloryeze]

1) Sandro injury - you ask why, because more than likely AVB will be forced to play youth in the EL instead of risking and pushing our first teamers for that competition.
2) Tom Carroll - good to see him get game time, even tho Falque should've come in instead he showed some composed passing and had a superb tackle towards the end of the game. We should see him get EL and FA Cup game starts.
3) Sigurdsson as a CM - Not a great performance but there were flashes of what he can do in that position. Actually showed great energy, not great in the tackle but does hussle and harass opposition players. Would much rather him than Hudd next to sandro for the next match.

This is assuming Sandro is even available. Without Sandro, Parker, Dembele and Livermore to choose for CM we are F-ked

 

[Jurgen the German]

My take on AVB so far is that he is primarily a cautious manager, who approaches the game with the philosophy of take care of defence first, keep the ball, then score goals second. Now that is fine if you have some of the best forwards in the world, and a brilliant playmaker, as he did at Porto -and to an extent at Chelsea. But we don't have those players, and AVB is going to have to become a little less risk averse if he wants to succeed.

We may be 4th, and I still think we might nick a win or a draw away from home the way he plays. But I don't see us making 4th without some big money signings -unlikely in January -or a bit of rethink of his football philosophy.

If AVB doesn't work out, then Levy will have to take his share of the blame for this. My biggest worry about AVB was that he wasn't goint to relent in his stubbornnes in certain situations. I hope he realises that we are at our best when we attack and keep attacking when were winning because it looks like a bad match at the moment in the sense that he's cautious.

 

[glorygloryeze]

When all's said and done, I don't actually think AVB can really do much different in terms of selection right now.

Fact is we missed Sando today after he went off; he would have protected the defence a hell of a lot better than Thudd can, who is simply not mobile enough. If he had played 442, how would that have worked? We'd more than likely have got picked off through the middle at an even easier rate. And who would have been able to contro, possession enough to get it to Bale or Lennon to get balls into Defoe and Ade?

I think without Dembele, Sandro even Livermore, AVB's caution is totally understandable.

We may have to play such a 4-4-2 system away at City and Arsenal and without Sandro, Dembele, Parker or Livermore; if/when our asses are handed to us in both games I wonder whether people will realise exactly what we lost in Modric

 

[SlumDilla]

This is assuming Sandro is even available. Without Sandro, Parker, Dembele and Livermore to choose for CM we are F-ked

Yeah, pretty much. Maybe Verts and Sig in the middle if Sandro isn't available.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

If AVB doesn't work out, then Levy will have to take his share of the blame for this. My biggest worry about AVB was that he wasn't goint to relent in his stubbornnes in certain situations. I hope he realises that we are at our best when we attack and keep attacking when were winning because it looks like a bad match at the moment in the sense that he's cautious.

I love the fact that we are 5th in the league and you start your post like that. I think 5th after 10 games and our injuries is not so bad. Sure we have been far from brilliant but we can get better methinks

 

[Roy1983]

I love the fact that we are 5th in the league and you start your post like that. I think 5th after 10 games and our injuries is not so bad. Sure we have been far from brilliant but we can get better methinks

Crazy. The fact were 5th doesn't soften the blow of the 3 brick home performances this season. 1 point at home to WBA, Norwich and Wigan is ok just cos were 5th!?! Lol I don't fudging think so.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I love the fact that we are 5th in the league and you start your post like that. I think 5th after 10 games and our injuries is not so bad. Sure we have been far from brilliant but we can get better methinks

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with our league position, but the jury is still out on AVB and my biggest fear is he hasn't learnt from his mistakes at Chelsea.

 

[Roy1983]

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with our league position, but the jury is still out on AVB and my biggest fear is he hasn't learnt from his mistakes at Chelsea.

I don't think he has personally.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

I don,t think the booing had anything to do with todays result.

We were so poor....and lucky to get 0.

i disagree, but i do wonder if negativity on places like this seeds the atmosphere and the booing at the ground?

we've already seen a poster determine that he's decided to boo one player in particular on Thursday. so if a fan can pick up support for that kind of attitude on a message board before the game, does that embolden him to redouble his 'efforts' at the ground?

 

[NaijaSpurs]

Crazy. The fact were 5th doesn't soften the blow of the 3 brick home performances this season. 1 point at home to WBA, Norwich and Wigan is ok just cos were 5th!?! Lol I don't fudging think so.

As bad as things may have been this season I would still take the first quarter of this season above the last quarter of last season, do you or anybody else on this forum disagree?

Over the past couple of seasons I remember us getting beat by the likes of Wigan, Norwich, QPR, West Ham, Blackpool and drawing with Wolves and Birmingham so lets not pretend we never player crap before AVB came to Spurs, but then I should not be surprised with so many people on here suffering from selective amnesia

 

[NaijaSpurs]

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with our league position, but the jury is still out on AVB and my biggest fear is he hasn't learnt from his mistakes at Chelsea.

I don't think he has personally.

Cut the guy some slack, he has not been able to bring in his own player and personally I think if BAE, Parker, Demebele, Ade and Kaboul, all key players, had been played more games we would have done better. He has inherited a team with not a lot of strength in depth and has key injuries. To be equal on points with the team in 4th place is fine by me. In time he will bring in his own players and get key ones back.

Personally I think it is foolhardy to give up on AVB after 10 league games

 

[DHSF]

As bad as things may have been this season I would still take the first quarter of this season above the last quarter of last season, do you or anybody else on this forum disagree?

Over the past couple of seasons I remember us getting beat by the likes of Wigan, Norwich, QPR, West Ham, Blackpool and drawing with Wolves and Birmingham so lets not pretend we never player crap before AVB came to Spurs, but then I should not be surprised with so many people on here suffering from selective amnesia

Im certainly not forgetting the crappy results over the last few years but lets get one thing straight we always looked like scoring ie. creating chances even in our worst results or performances we created pressure and played with a bit of pace. I mean QPR last season we lost 1-0 but had what 20 shots on goal?

if we lost yesterday but actually showed some sort of performance then the vitriol wouldnt be as bad as it is. Its just that performance (not the first) was so bad, dull, boring, inept, labored etc that it just made me think of the bad old days. Im unsure if you were there (youre not from UK are you?) but when you sit/stand there and a performance is THAT bad where there is no movement, pace, or enthusiasm etc then you just have to wonder. We did look leggy and tired but we are only a quarter of the way through the season.

Im not just blaming AVB here but from the top through to the fudgein tea lady. The strategy is led from the top and if the top do not support the important people in providing them the best possible resources then its gonna be doomed to failure.