markysimmo
Johnny nice-tits
So a vote is taking place at 5pm about the UK getting involved in Iraq, etc
What do people think about it here, its clear these ISIS Jihadists pose a real threat to the safety of people round the world, you just think its a matter of time before a major terrorist attack happens somewhere again, its a little worrying
Britain cannot 'walk on by' in the face of the threat posed by 'psychopathic terrorists', David Cameron warned today as he urged MPs to back air strikes in Iraq.
The Prime Minister told a packed House of Commons that ISIS is a terrorist group like no other, responsible for 'staggering brutality' and posing a direct threat to the British people.
MPs are expected to back sending RAF Tornados to destroy carefully chosen targets in Iraq in a vote at 5pm.
But divisions emerged over expanding action into neighbouring Syria, with Mr Cameron insisting there is a 'strong case' for action but Labour leader Ed Miliband blocking it without a UN Security Council resolution - which Russia is certain to veto
MPs have been recalled to Westminster today to vote on British involvement in air strikes against ISIS - also known as Islamic State or ISIL - in Iraq, at the request of the Iraqi government.
Six RAF Tornados have been stationed in Cyprus for the past six weeks and have been flying surveillance flights over northern Iraq.
They could begin dropping bombs and missiles within hours of the Prime Minister giving orders after the Commons vote at 5pm
There is growing consensus on the principle of air strikes in Iraq, even backed by the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby. But there were repeated calls for the action to be replicated in Syria.
Mr Miliband said it would be 'better' to seek a UN Security Council resolution on action in Syria
But former Lib Dem leader Sir Menzies Campbell said the demand was 'wholly pointless', as MPs from across the political spectrum said it made no sense to not to include Syria in today's vote.
Opening the debate, Mr Cameron said: 'There is no more serious issue than asking our armed forces to put themselves in harm's way to protect our country.'
He insisted British involvement in military action in Iraq was necessary and in the national interest, working with local partner countries to build an international coalition.
He admitted the 2003 invasion of Iraq by Tony Blair's government 'hangs heavy' over the Commons, but warned today's situation is 'very different'.
'This is not 2003, we must not use past mistakes as an excuse for indifference or inaction,' the PM added.
He said the UK has a 'duty' to act and could not leave responsibility for keeping the British people safe to other countries.
'Is there a threat to the British people? The answer is yes,' he said. 'ISIL has already murdered one British hostage and has threatened to murder two more.'
Mr Cameron added: 'ISIL is a terrorist organisation unlike those we have dealt with before.
'The brutality is staggering - beheadings, crucifixions, gauging out of eyes, use of *struggle cuddle* as a weapon. All those things belong to the dark ages.'
Challenged by Labour MP David Winnick, who warned previous interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, had ended in failure, Mr Cameron insisted doing nothing was not an option.
'This is about psychopathic terrorists who are trying to kill us. Like it or not they have already declared war on us. There isn't a walk on by option.'
Labour veteran Dennis Skinner intervened to ask the Prime Minister: 'How long will this war last and when will mission creep start?'
Mr Cameron replied: 'This is going to be a mission that will take not just months but years, but I believe we have to be prepared for that commitment.'
The Cabinet unanimously backed military action against ISIS yesterday, and the Government is expected to secure a large majority in Parliament later.
But the motion to be debated in Parliament today explicitly rules out strikes in Syria, and a separate vote would be needed for British warplanes to expand their targets
Mr Cameron hinted that opposition from the Labour party meant today's debate was narrowly focussed on Iraq.
He said there was a 'strong case' for UK action in Syria but he 'did not want to bring motion to the House that there wasn't consensus for'.
He backed the US-led air strikes against ISIS targets in Syria, but no British action can be taken there without a further debate and vote at Westminster.
'I do believe there is a strong case for us to do more in Syria but I did not want to bring a motion to the House today which there wasn't consensus for,' he said
'It's better if our country can proceed on the basis of consensus.'
He added that he did not believe there was a 'legal barrier' to action in Syria but he acknowledged the situation there was 'more complicated' than in Iraq because of the civil war and the position of President Assad.
Most Conservative and Lib Dem MPs are expected to back military action in Iraq, but some Labour MPs are likely to defy Mr Miliband's support to vote against it.
Mr Miliband told MPs he was supporting the government motion for air strikes against ISIS in Iraq.
He said: 'Let us be clear at the outset what is the proposition: air strikes against ISIL in Iraq.
'Not about ground troops. Nor about UK military action elsewhere. And it is a mission specifically aimed at ISIL.'
Mr Miliband added: 'It is not simply that ISIL is a murderous organisation, it has ambitions for a state of its own - a Caliphate across the Middle East, run according to their horrific norms and valuesSo we cannot stand by against the threat of ISIL.
'But in acting against them we need to learn the lessons from the past. That means a comprehensive strategy, humanitarian and political as well as military, rooted in the region.
'Some of this is underway. More needs to be done.
'I believe although this is difficult, this is the right thing to do. There is no graver decision for our Parliament and our country.
'But protecting our national interest, security and the values for which we stand is why I will be supporting the motion this afternoon.'
Sir Richard Ottaway, chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, said he feared deaths if British action takes place.
But he said he would back the Government's proposal for Iraq with 'a feeling of depression and trepidation', although he also called for it to be extended to Syria.
Former Tory Cabinet minister Ken Clarke described Britain's involvement in military action as largely symbolic.
But the senior Conservative MP said the symbolism was important as it will help the UK influence the diplomacy and politics needed to stabilise the Middle East.
Mr Clarke said: 'I am left with the feeling that certainly I should support this motion because some of our best allies are taking part in this intervention.
'But I still think we're at the early stages of working out exactly where we're going and I do think that our almost symbolic participation in these military attacks - six aircraft and our intelligence are no doubt valuable to our allies - but we're symbolically joining with them.'
Conservative MP Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) questioned whether the Government was 'seriously contending that by air strikes alone we can roll back Isil' and added: 'Is this gesture politics'.
Tory John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) questioned whether western air strikes could be 'actively counter productive'.
Green MP Caroline Lucas (Brighton Pavilion) told the Prime Minister: 'Killing extremists does not kill their ideas.'
Respect MP George Galloway said the bombing should be left to Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other countries in the region.
'The last people who should be returning to the scene of their former crimes are Britain, France and the United States of America,' he added.
The debate comes amid warnings the RAF has been reduced to the 'bare bones' by defence cuts.
Former head of the RAF, Air Chief Marshall Sir Michael Graydon, said the RAF was at rock bottom after years of cuts.
He said the RAF was already committed to defending UK air space as well as operations in Afghanistan, Nigeria, and the Falklands.
'The lack of combat aircraft is a major weakness,' he said. 'This has been raised time and time again and basically ignored. We really are at rock bottom. To sustain this operation is going to be quite a stretch.'
Air Commodore Andrew Lambert added: 'I think it's do-able, but we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel, so let's hope Ukraine doesn't bubble up into something nasty.'
But Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond denied the use of only six aircraft suggested Britain was not fully committed to the operation.
'We are not contributing in a half-hearted manner,' the Foreign Secretary said. 'There are many aspects to this campaign, it isn't just about airstrikes.
'It's about a much broader package of support for countries in the region to deal with this emerging threat.
'And we won't defeat ISIL with military action alone. We have to defeat it through an intelligent, political approach as well - cutting off the financial flows, the flows of foreign fighters, making sure that people can't get to and from Isil strongholds...and challenging its narrative.'
Mr Cameron was humiliated a year ago when he lost a Commons vote on military action to support rebels seeking to overthrow the Assad regime in Syria.
Number 10 has deliberately taken its time in building consensus on military action.
Mr Cameron will open the debate on this morning, and his deputy Lib Dem Nick Clegg will close it before the vote.
Addressing the UN Security Council in New York this week, Mr Cameron said ISIS had behaved with 'medieval barbarity'.
'One of the most disturbing aspects is how this conflict is sucking in our own young people, from modern, prosperous societies,' the Prime Minister said.
Today's Commons motion stresses that the proposes action is aimed at 'supporting the Government of Iraq in protecting civilians and restoring its territorial integrity, including the use of UK air strikes to support Iraqi, including Kurdish, security forces' efforts against ISIL in Iraq'.
It stresses that the British government 'will not deploy UK troops in ground combat operations' and insist that the motion 'does not endorse UK air strikes in Syria as part of this campaign and any proposal to do so would be subject to a separate vote in Parliament'.
ACTION AGAINST ISIS: FULL MOTION BEING DEBATED IN PARLIAMENT
This is the text of the motion debated by MPs:
'That this House condemns the barbaric acts of ISIL against the peoples of Iraq including the Sunni, Shia, Kurds, Christians and Yazidi and the humanitarian crisis this is causing;
'Recognises the clear threat ISIL poses to the territorial integrity of Iraq and the request from the Government of Iraq for military support from the international community and the specific request to the UK Government for such support;
'Further recognises the threat ISIL poses to wider international security and the UK directly through its sponsorship of terrorist attacks and its murder of a British hostage;
'Acknowledges the broad coalition contributing to military support of the Government of Iraq including countries throughout the Middle East;
'Further acknowledges the request of the Government of Iraq for international support to defend itself against the threat ISIL poses to Iraq and its citizens and the clear legal basis that this provides for action in Iraq;
'Notes that this motion does not endorse UK air strikes in Syria as part of this campaign and any proposal to do so would be subject to a separate vote in Parliament;
'Accordingly supports Her Majesty's Government, working with allies, in supporting the Government of Iraq in protecting civilians and restoring its territorial integrity, including the use of UK air strikes to support Iraqi, including Kurdish, security forces' efforts against ISIL in Iraq;
'Notes that Her Majesty's Government will not deploy UK troops in ground combat operations;
'And offers its wholehearted support to the men and women of Her Majesty's armed forces.'
What do people think about it here, its clear these ISIS Jihadists pose a real threat to the safety of people round the world, you just think its a matter of time before a major terrorist attack happens somewhere again, its a little worrying
Britain cannot 'walk on by' in the face of the threat posed by 'psychopathic terrorists', David Cameron warned today as he urged MPs to back air strikes in Iraq.
The Prime Minister told a packed House of Commons that ISIS is a terrorist group like no other, responsible for 'staggering brutality' and posing a direct threat to the British people.
MPs are expected to back sending RAF Tornados to destroy carefully chosen targets in Iraq in a vote at 5pm.
But divisions emerged over expanding action into neighbouring Syria, with Mr Cameron insisting there is a 'strong case' for action but Labour leader Ed Miliband blocking it without a UN Security Council resolution - which Russia is certain to veto
MPs have been recalled to Westminster today to vote on British involvement in air strikes against ISIS - also known as Islamic State or ISIL - in Iraq, at the request of the Iraqi government.
Six RAF Tornados have been stationed in Cyprus for the past six weeks and have been flying surveillance flights over northern Iraq.
They could begin dropping bombs and missiles within hours of the Prime Minister giving orders after the Commons vote at 5pm
There is growing consensus on the principle of air strikes in Iraq, even backed by the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby. But there were repeated calls for the action to be replicated in Syria.
Mr Miliband said it would be 'better' to seek a UN Security Council resolution on action in Syria
But former Lib Dem leader Sir Menzies Campbell said the demand was 'wholly pointless', as MPs from across the political spectrum said it made no sense to not to include Syria in today's vote.
Opening the debate, Mr Cameron said: 'There is no more serious issue than asking our armed forces to put themselves in harm's way to protect our country.'
He insisted British involvement in military action in Iraq was necessary and in the national interest, working with local partner countries to build an international coalition.
He admitted the 2003 invasion of Iraq by Tony Blair's government 'hangs heavy' over the Commons, but warned today's situation is 'very different'.
'This is not 2003, we must not use past mistakes as an excuse for indifference or inaction,' the PM added.
He said the UK has a 'duty' to act and could not leave responsibility for keeping the British people safe to other countries.
'Is there a threat to the British people? The answer is yes,' he said. 'ISIL has already murdered one British hostage and has threatened to murder two more.'
Mr Cameron added: 'ISIL is a terrorist organisation unlike those we have dealt with before.
'The brutality is staggering - beheadings, crucifixions, gauging out of eyes, use of *struggle cuddle* as a weapon. All those things belong to the dark ages.'
Challenged by Labour MP David Winnick, who warned previous interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, had ended in failure, Mr Cameron insisted doing nothing was not an option.
'This is about psychopathic terrorists who are trying to kill us. Like it or not they have already declared war on us. There isn't a walk on by option.'
Labour veteran Dennis Skinner intervened to ask the Prime Minister: 'How long will this war last and when will mission creep start?'
Mr Cameron replied: 'This is going to be a mission that will take not just months but years, but I believe we have to be prepared for that commitment.'
The Cabinet unanimously backed military action against ISIS yesterday, and the Government is expected to secure a large majority in Parliament later.
But the motion to be debated in Parliament today explicitly rules out strikes in Syria, and a separate vote would be needed for British warplanes to expand their targets
Mr Cameron hinted that opposition from the Labour party meant today's debate was narrowly focussed on Iraq.
He said there was a 'strong case' for UK action in Syria but he 'did not want to bring motion to the House that there wasn't consensus for'.
He backed the US-led air strikes against ISIS targets in Syria, but no British action can be taken there without a further debate and vote at Westminster.
'I do believe there is a strong case for us to do more in Syria but I did not want to bring a motion to the House today which there wasn't consensus for,' he said
'It's better if our country can proceed on the basis of consensus.'
He added that he did not believe there was a 'legal barrier' to action in Syria but he acknowledged the situation there was 'more complicated' than in Iraq because of the civil war and the position of President Assad.
Most Conservative and Lib Dem MPs are expected to back military action in Iraq, but some Labour MPs are likely to defy Mr Miliband's support to vote against it.
Mr Miliband told MPs he was supporting the government motion for air strikes against ISIS in Iraq.
He said: 'Let us be clear at the outset what is the proposition: air strikes against ISIL in Iraq.
'Not about ground troops. Nor about UK military action elsewhere. And it is a mission specifically aimed at ISIL.'
Mr Miliband added: 'It is not simply that ISIL is a murderous organisation, it has ambitions for a state of its own - a Caliphate across the Middle East, run according to their horrific norms and valuesSo we cannot stand by against the threat of ISIL.
'But in acting against them we need to learn the lessons from the past. That means a comprehensive strategy, humanitarian and political as well as military, rooted in the region.
'Some of this is underway. More needs to be done.
'I believe although this is difficult, this is the right thing to do. There is no graver decision for our Parliament and our country.
'But protecting our national interest, security and the values for which we stand is why I will be supporting the motion this afternoon.'
Sir Richard Ottaway, chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, said he feared deaths if British action takes place.
But he said he would back the Government's proposal for Iraq with 'a feeling of depression and trepidation', although he also called for it to be extended to Syria.
Former Tory Cabinet minister Ken Clarke described Britain's involvement in military action as largely symbolic.
But the senior Conservative MP said the symbolism was important as it will help the UK influence the diplomacy and politics needed to stabilise the Middle East.
Mr Clarke said: 'I am left with the feeling that certainly I should support this motion because some of our best allies are taking part in this intervention.
'But I still think we're at the early stages of working out exactly where we're going and I do think that our almost symbolic participation in these military attacks - six aircraft and our intelligence are no doubt valuable to our allies - but we're symbolically joining with them.'
Conservative MP Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) questioned whether the Government was 'seriously contending that by air strikes alone we can roll back Isil' and added: 'Is this gesture politics'.
Tory John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) questioned whether western air strikes could be 'actively counter productive'.
Green MP Caroline Lucas (Brighton Pavilion) told the Prime Minister: 'Killing extremists does not kill their ideas.'
Respect MP George Galloway said the bombing should be left to Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other countries in the region.
'The last people who should be returning to the scene of their former crimes are Britain, France and the United States of America,' he added.
The debate comes amid warnings the RAF has been reduced to the 'bare bones' by defence cuts.
Former head of the RAF, Air Chief Marshall Sir Michael Graydon, said the RAF was at rock bottom after years of cuts.
He said the RAF was already committed to defending UK air space as well as operations in Afghanistan, Nigeria, and the Falklands.
'The lack of combat aircraft is a major weakness,' he said. 'This has been raised time and time again and basically ignored. We really are at rock bottom. To sustain this operation is going to be quite a stretch.'
Air Commodore Andrew Lambert added: 'I think it's do-able, but we are really scraping the bottom of the barrel, so let's hope Ukraine doesn't bubble up into something nasty.'
But Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond denied the use of only six aircraft suggested Britain was not fully committed to the operation.
'We are not contributing in a half-hearted manner,' the Foreign Secretary said. 'There are many aspects to this campaign, it isn't just about airstrikes.
'It's about a much broader package of support for countries in the region to deal with this emerging threat.
'And we won't defeat ISIL with military action alone. We have to defeat it through an intelligent, political approach as well - cutting off the financial flows, the flows of foreign fighters, making sure that people can't get to and from Isil strongholds...and challenging its narrative.'
Mr Cameron was humiliated a year ago when he lost a Commons vote on military action to support rebels seeking to overthrow the Assad regime in Syria.
Number 10 has deliberately taken its time in building consensus on military action.
Mr Cameron will open the debate on this morning, and his deputy Lib Dem Nick Clegg will close it before the vote.
Addressing the UN Security Council in New York this week, Mr Cameron said ISIS had behaved with 'medieval barbarity'.
'One of the most disturbing aspects is how this conflict is sucking in our own young people, from modern, prosperous societies,' the Prime Minister said.
Today's Commons motion stresses that the proposes action is aimed at 'supporting the Government of Iraq in protecting civilians and restoring its territorial integrity, including the use of UK air strikes to support Iraqi, including Kurdish, security forces' efforts against ISIL in Iraq'.
It stresses that the British government 'will not deploy UK troops in ground combat operations' and insist that the motion 'does not endorse UK air strikes in Syria as part of this campaign and any proposal to do so would be subject to a separate vote in Parliament'.
ACTION AGAINST ISIS: FULL MOTION BEING DEBATED IN PARLIAMENT
This is the text of the motion debated by MPs:
'That this House condemns the barbaric acts of ISIL against the peoples of Iraq including the Sunni, Shia, Kurds, Christians and Yazidi and the humanitarian crisis this is causing;
'Recognises the clear threat ISIL poses to the territorial integrity of Iraq and the request from the Government of Iraq for military support from the international community and the specific request to the UK Government for such support;
'Further recognises the threat ISIL poses to wider international security and the UK directly through its sponsorship of terrorist attacks and its murder of a British hostage;
'Acknowledges the broad coalition contributing to military support of the Government of Iraq including countries throughout the Middle East;
'Further acknowledges the request of the Government of Iraq for international support to defend itself against the threat ISIL poses to Iraq and its citizens and the clear legal basis that this provides for action in Iraq;
'Notes that this motion does not endorse UK air strikes in Syria as part of this campaign and any proposal to do so would be subject to a separate vote in Parliament;
'Accordingly supports Her Majesty's Government, working with allies, in supporting the Government of Iraq in protecting civilians and restoring its territorial integrity, including the use of UK air strikes to support Iraqi, including Kurdish, security forces' efforts against ISIL in Iraq;
'Notes that Her Majesty's Government will not deploy UK troops in ground combat operations;
'And offers its wholehearted support to the men and women of Her Majesty's armed forces.'
