I want Poch back

[glasgowspur]

I think that as with practically everything the truth lies somewhere inbetween. @billyiddo @thfcsteff are absolutely right that Poch should have been given time to do his rebuild - I wasn’t so sure personally but with the magic of hindsight and the calibre of manager we’ve had in since and no real progression you can’t argue against that.

However, its also easy to forget that Poch was a shadow of the energetic charismatic coach we grew to love by the end. He was having meltdowns and coming out with unexplainable things, and he physically looked like a broken man. It was the best thing for himself more than anyone else that he left by the end - regardless of whose fault it was that he was in that state.

As for now, let’s see what things are looking like by the end of the season. Things change so quickly in football. New signings in the window and potentially Conte will change tactic after the World Cup in terms of these slow starts, who knows. And despite the doom and gloom (of which I was very much part of yesterday) we are still in the top 4 and in the Champions League knockouts - most teams in this league would give their left nut for that. I believe Conte will get this team firing before the end of the season. But if not and Conte doesn’t seem up for the challenge going forward? Poch would be tempting for next season for sure…..

Poch was a victim of his own success, he could see that we were almost there and with some luck, bravery and determination we could achieve.
Ultimately it all happened to quickly, which drove expectations, to early in the stadium build when budget was tight and before the players really began to believe.
Mouras miracle in Amsterdam turned out to be curse imho, we took a peek into the big time and bricked ourselves.
Instead of spurring us on it caused us to regress into ourselves.

 

[billyiddo]

I think that as with practically everything the truth lies somewhere inbetween. @billyiddo @thfcsteff are absolutely right that Poch should have been given time to do his rebuild - I wasn’t so sure personally but with the magic of hindsight and the calibre of manager we’ve had in since and no real progression you can’t argue against that.

However, its also easy to forget that Poch was a shadow of the energetic charismatic coach we grew to love by the end. He was having meltdowns and coming out with unexplainable things, and he physically looked like a broken man. It was the best thing for himself more than anyone else that he left by the end - regardless of whose fault it was that he was in that state.

As for now, let’s see what things are looking like by the end of the season. Things change so quickly in football. New signings in the window and potentially Conte will change tactic after the World Cup in terms of these slow starts, who knows. And despite the doom and gloom (of which I was very much part of yesterday) we are still in the top 4 and in the Champions League knockouts - most teams in this league would give their left nut for that. I believe Conte will get this team firing before the end of the season. But if not and Conte doesn’t seem up for the challenge going forward? Poch would be tempting for next season for sure…..

Yeah i think it's fair to say that by the end too much damage had been done and at that point it was likely irreparable without there first being some time apart. Of course the argument is that it shouldn't have got to that stage and more should have been done, by all parties, to make it work - there was something special about the club at the point we walked out of WHL and that doesn't come around too often.

 

[glasgowspur]

I'm not backing the opinion we should make any change now - i mean if Conte was to walk i wouldn't hesitate to bring Poch in personally but if it's down to me- we see what the 2nd half of the season brings, this could easily be a season where the end justifies the means.

The big question will be if we have a dodgy second half of the season and Conte remains uncommitted - do we risk going in to a new season with a manager who might walk away? At that point unless he's happy with the backing he is getting and is indicating that he's committed to the project of building the team over several windows it may be best to not take uo the extension

Conte is still the best manager we could have just now, he is the man for the job.
But honestly I would take clampbell and finishing 16th for a season if it achieved clearing out the stables and starting a fresh.
Someone at the club has to lay down a marker and say this is no longer acceptable.

 

[harr1984]

Yeah i think it's fair to say that by the end too much damage had been done and at that point it was likely irreparable without there first being some time apart. Of course the argument is that it shouldn't have got to that stage and more should have been done, by all parties, to make it work - there was something special about the club at the point we walked out of WHL and that doesn't come around too often.

Damn, you saying all this has brought it all back - the memories of the togetherness of the team and fans. Still not totally convinced it would be the right thing to do for him to come back yet, but I wouldn’t criticise Levy for getting him back either if Conte was to leave….

 

[billyiddo]

Conte is still the best manager we could have just now, he is the man for the job.
But honestly I would take clampbell and finishing 16th for a season if it achieved clearing out the stables and starting a fresh.
Someone at the club has to lay down a marker and say this is no longer acceptable.

No he's the biggest name/best on paper - as with any appointment that only counts for so much.

If he's too stuck in his ways and carries on with the safety first negative football despite it taking us backwards then he is evidently not the best man for the job.

We don't need to start afresh this is just you still blaming the old players for the lack of quality signed since they were originally here - we need a few additions in key positions and a manager who can get them playing as a team. Bastoni/Gvardiol type CB, x 2 if possible, Dumfries at RWB and Maddison - then we have the key components of a good team covered - this can be done over the next couple of windows, not enough to have us up with City but enough to have a team with good quality in the right areas and the right blend to play football without having to compromise because of weak links in the starting XI

 

[Gutter Boy]

He didn't want a dof.

He brought his 2nd and 3rd ones in himself - Planes then Mitchell.

 

[Kandi1977]

Just remember that when Levy did allow him free reign, he bought NDombele, LoCelso, Sess and Clarke. There is no doubt in my mind that at least the first two were his choices. Signing hew players under his watch was generally a disaster. So much money wasted.

Ndombele would have been a success with Poch. He's doing well in Napoli, and I'm sure Poch would let him do what he's best at.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Ndombele would have been a success with Poch. He's doing well in Napoli, and I'm sure Poch would let him do what he's best at.

Define doing well?

 

[Finney Is Back]

at what stage does that come in though, it can't be Levy, he's given us the best of everything we can afford, he doesn't think we are small, he didn't build a europa league stadium, or training ground, he's never held money back, what comes in goes straight back out again

I think some in the squad have that attitude, but it's not the chairman or the manager

I agree with you here when it comes to overall finances. However I disagree with you as the club was allowed to drift quite badly in terms of its scouting and youth development. Though I hope that Paratici coming in will turn around that decline.

 

[parklane1]

By the way, history is a great leveler.
There were many, many supporters who did not believe Poch deserved time and backing in the period before he was sacked. I will never forget it. Twas when I realized once and for all that no club is immune to fickle fans.

Pretty much how i feel ( i did not want him sacked when he was and should have been given more time to turn it round) However as you say fickle fans flip flop and suggesting bring Pooch back is ( imo) a big mistake and i hope it does not happen.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Just remember that when Levy did allow him free reign, he bought NDombele, LoCelso, Sess and Clarke. There is no doubt in my mind that at least the first two were his choices. Signing hew players under his watch was generally a disaster. So much money wasted.

I think all of them are probably actually good players (though there are question marks at how suited Ndombele and Lo Celso are for the PL). The crazy thing though was that Poch got sacked before being able to integrate those players into his team properly due to them arriving injured/getting injured soon after arriving. We gave a manager no new signings for 18 months and then sacked him having finally given him £100m to spend before seeing how the team looked with the players he had wanted. It was a very strange decision indeed and I think one only taken because of the hard-on that Levy had always had for Mourinho. Had it not been for Pochettino regularly getting us into the CL ahead of schedule the overspend on the new stadium would've crippled us. IMO Pochettino had absolutely earned himself a season finishing outside of the CL or even outside of the European places completely. I thought it was then poetic justice on the chairman that having sacked him we only ended up in the Europa League and then The Europa Conference League anyway.

For the record I think we need to stick with Conte. The football is dire right now but we saw how difficult it was to get even a half reasonable new manager after we had sacked Mourinho (at a really stupid time to sack him). Getting rid of a renowned manager like Conte with us 4th in the league and into the last 16 of the CL would make us a laughing stock in the football World. Who would want to come to our club when we sack managers who punch above the clubs weight in terms of relative expenditure in the PL? We need to grind it out until the transfer window and then do all we can to give him 2 or 3 more good players to give him better options on the pitch. We have the nucleus of a good team, we just need a couple of new first choice players, some luck with injuries and then we could easily go on a good run.

I do think longer term we need to decide what type of club that we are however. Are we a team that should have a project type manager who is happy to take on younger players and develop them or do we want to a real 'big boy' and ensure we pay high transfer fees but also operate a far more competetive wage bill that enables a team to sign proper, established top players instead of players a level or two below that who are less guaranteed to make it. Perhaps it will depend upon which managers are available whenever Conte does go or, probably more importantly, which of those managers we can attract.

 

[harr1984]

Let’s be fair, it wasn’t a case of not giving Poch any new signings for 18 months though was it? If memory serves it was widely reported that Poch was offered players, and some decent ones at that which he turned down.

And even if it was the case, what manager worth his salt would put up with that? Can you imagine Conte putting up with no investment in players for such a period of time?

Im not going to pretend to know what went on with our player investment but it does seem some always bend over backwards to make excuses for Poch in this area - he wasn’t given the tools, the players he signed weren’t his players etc etc He was the leader of the club and it is partly on him whatever way it’s spun….

 

[parklane1]

Let’s be fair, it wasn’t a case of not giving Poch any new signings for 18 months though was it? If memory serves it was widely reported that Poch was offered players, and some decent ones at that which he turned down.

And even if it was the case, what manager worth his salt would put up with that? Can you imagine Conte putting up with no investment in players for such a period of time?

Im not going to pretend to know what went on with our player investment but it does seem some always bend over backwards to make excuses for Poch in this area - he wasn’t given the tools, the players he signed weren’t his players etc etc He was the leader of the club and it is partly on him whatever way it’s spun….

Does not fit the agenda of some. I did not want Poch sacked when he was ( i would have given him more time) but the truth is we were stinking the place out for quite a while in his later days. But as usual with a some fans all that is forgotten when they are on a bitching mood.

 

[glasgowspur]

No he's the biggest name/best on paper - as with any appointment that only counts for so much.

If he's too stuck in his ways and carries on with the safety first negative football despite it taking us backwards then he is evidently not the best man for the job.

We don't need to start afresh this is just you still blaming the old players for the lack of quality signed since they were originally here - we need a few additions in key positions and a manager who can get them playing as a team. Bastoni/Gvardiol type CB, x 2 if possible, Dumfries at RWB and Maddison - then we have the key components of a good team covered - this can be done over the next couple of windows, not enough to have us up with City but enough to have a team with good quality in the right areas and the right blend to play football without having to compromise because of weak links in the starting XI

You call it blaming, i say its asking them to take responsibility.
Our squad is weaker than the dopped clubs, utd and Liverpool, but its not weaker than a forest team sitting bottom of the league. And its not the first time a result or performance like this has happened.
Hugo is mid 30s, kane is approaching 30 and getting run into the ground by club and country, similar with son, none of them are going to improve and will definitely not be better by the time the next two windows are over.
They are not the future.

 

[Lilbaz]

Does not fit the agenda of some. I did not want Poch sacked when he was ( i would have given him more time) but the truth is we were stinking the place out for quite a while in his later days. But as usual with a some fans all that is forgotten when they are on a bitching mood.

From feb to when he was sacked we were in relegation form in the league. The cl final papered over some of the cracks. I wanted to give him till the end of the season but can understand why levy pulled the trigger.

Tbf the only 2 that i remember not wanting to give more time to were avb and ramos.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Let’s be fair, it wasn’t a case of not giving Poch any new signings for 18 months though was it? If memory serves it was widely reported that Poch was offered players, and some decent ones at that which he turned down.

And even if it was the case, what manager worth his salt would put up with that? Can you imagine Conte putting up with no investment in players for such a period of time?

Im not going to pretend to know what went on with our player investment but it does seem some always bend over backwards to make excuses for Poch in this area - he wasn’t given the tools, the players he signed weren’t his players etc etc He was the leader of the club and it is partly on him whatever way it’s spun….

Only right for a manager to turn down poor, substandard players who he feels aren't good enough to get the team where they need to be (i.e. winning the big trophies). Some of the players Pochettino asked for were a stretch but others were anything but impossible to get, one in particular was very easy to get but the club messed up with their game of brinkmanship. Also Sessegnon he wanted a year earlier so that he could rotate him in with Rose still playing but the club deemed that Fulham's fee was too expensive and chose to wait.

You are right that Conte wouldn't put up with that. In many ways Poch was just too nice. That is why it was so strange for Levy to sack Pochettino, especially then to get a manager who would have no problems using the press as his mouthpiece. Delicious irony in the fact that the Mourinho stint apparently ended when Levy wanted to prioritise European qualification while Jose refused and wanted to rest players midweek for the PL game to give us the biggest chance of winning the cup final at the weekend. Delicious in that Pochettino was always very much on message about it being fine to sacrifice the cups for the greater financial prize of CL qualification.

Levy sacking Pochettino was akin to me sacking the best bond trader my fund had ever had after that trader had delivered 4 straight years of overperformance just because he'd had a poor quarter and come in well under his targets.

All of that being said I don't think we should go back. Our academy has really rotted these past several years and we have little there that could come in and take on Pochettino's ideas and I'm not sure a large enough portion of the first team squad would suit those ideas either. More important than that though I don't think the club deserves to have him back. He was taken for granted far too much and jettisoned at the first sign of trouble. I think he will be back in the PL at some point and I think he'll probably do well when he comes back, I don't think that will be at Spurs however.

 

[glasgowspur]

I think all of them are probably actually good players (though there are question marks at how suited Ndombele and Lo Celso are for the PL). The crazy thing though was that Poch got sacked before being able to integrate those players into his team properly due to them arriving injured/getting injured soon after arriving. We gave a manager no new signings for 18 months and then sacked him having finally given him £100m to spend before seeing how the team looked with the players he had wanted. It was a very strange decision indeed and I think one only taken because of the hard-on that Levy had always had for Mourinho. Had it not been for Pochettino regularly getting us into the CL ahead of schedule the overspend on the new stadium would've crippled us. IMO Pochettino had absolutely earned himself a season finishing outside of the CL or even outside of the European places completely. I thought it was then poetic justice on the chairman that having sacked him we only ended up in the Europa League and then The Europa Conference League anyway.

For the record I think we need to stick with Conte. The football is dire right now but we saw how difficult it was to get even a half reasonable new manager after we had sacked Mourinho (at a really stupid time to sack him). Getting rid of a renowned manager like Conte with us 4th in the league and into the last 16 of the CL would make us a laughing stock in the football World. Who would want to come to our club when we sack managers who punch above the clubs weight in terms of relative expenditure in the PL? We need to grind it out until the transfer window and then do all we can to give him 2 or 3 more good players to give him better options on the pitch. We have the nucleus of a good team, we just need a couple of new first choice players, some luck with injuries and then we could easily go on a good run.

I do think longer term we need to decide what type of club that we are however. Are we a team that should have a project type manager who is happy to take on younger players and develop them or do we want to a real 'big boy' and ensure we pay high transfer fees but also operate a far more competetive wage bill that enables a team to sign proper, established top players instead of players a level or two below that who are less guaranteed to make it. Perhaps it will depend upon which managers are available whenever Conte does go or, probably more importantly, which of those managers we can attract.

All during his tv work Jose put out the idea that the squad was good enough to win all it needed was the right approach, the correct guiding hand.
Turns out he was wrong.
Levy wanted to believe him, not in my opinion because he is a cheapskate but because he becomes emotionally attached to his players.

 

[Finney Is Back]

From feb to when he was sacked we were in relegation form in the league. The cl final papered over some of the cracks. I wanted to give him till the end of the season but can understand why levy pulled the trigger.

Tbfthe only 2 that i remember not wanting to give more time to was avb and ramos.

We finished 4th, the same thing that Conte was lauded for last season.... We also did that while going all the way to the CL final and I think towards the end we were prioritising trying to win a trophy (for once). All of that was after having zero new signings, losing a key first team squad member in Dembele and also having a huge number of our team go all the way to the WC Semi final and final.

If we finished 4th and got to the CL final this season I bet that you'd see Conte as an absolute GHod.

 

[glasgowspur]

Let’s be fair, it wasn’t a case of not giving Poch any new signings for 18 months though was it? If memory serves it was widely reported that Poch was offered players, and some decent ones at that which he turned down.

And even if it was the case, what manager worth his salt would put up with that? Can you imagine Conte putting up with no investment in players for such a period of time?

Im not going to pretend to know what went on with our player investment but it does seem some always bend over backwards to make excuses for Poch in this area - he wasn’t given the tools, the players he signed weren’t his players etc etc He was the leader of the club and it is partly on him whatever way it’s spun….

A lot of things are widely reported and never come to pass.
Gattuso for example.
Rightly or wrongly poch invested in the club emotionally and it no doubt affected his judgment on what he was prepared to put up with.
Poch was not blameless for what went wrong, but he is also not fully responsible for it going wrong.

 

[Finney Is Back]

All during his tv work Jose put out the idea that the squad was good enough to win all it needed was the right approach, the correct guiding hand.
Turns out he was wrong.
Levy wanted to believe him, not in my opinion because he is a cheapskate but because he becomes emotionally attached to his players.

Of course Jose did.... It earned him £15m a year and a nice big pay off. I always prefer to believe a person who has actually been working there (and doing a great job) than somebody looking in from the outside. Though even with the Jose mistake, we still may have actually won a trophy under him had the chairman not eventually interfered and sacked him!