I aint no Sheikh-but lets talk weather

[spurspinter1]

I know human nature - anyone who understands it can tell you that enough people will never make their lives worse for some possible benefit that they may never receive due to much of the rest of the world not doing their bit. Do you genuinely think people will stop flying, stop eating meat, live in colder houses etc? Look where there have been gains - EVs are about 80-90% as good as real cars and so people are buying them, lab-grown meat apparently is indistinguishable from the real thing - people will eat that when technology makes it readily available. But tell people to holiday in the UK and not Monaco and they'll tell you to fudge off.

The hedonism bit is quite simple - you only get around a decade to do it properly without being a weird, old person. That's a one-off chance to spend 10 years getting completely off your tits, sleeping around and being completely irresponsible whilst doing little but chasing pleasure. You can't care loudly about brick, being entirely boring until you're 25 and then do the young person bit - it doesn't work that way around. You have to do that bit from your early-mid teens until your early-mid 20s - not doing that is wasting the most valuable resource any of us has. Problem is, the current generation of buzzkillers won't realise that until they've wasted it.

Who has said that people need to live in colder houses!? Absurd strawman. The current system is making people live in cold houses because a conflict in Ukraine spiked the prices and many can't afford heating, if governments were more proactive about not relying on fossil fuels it wouldn't be a problem. Already I'm gauging that you're not aware of the issues with how things currently are, whilst pretending things would be worse doing anything else.

As for not eating meat, plenty of people don't and it's not some new fangled idea. Life isn't worse by not consuming the flesh of what were sentient beings. You very well might be the kind of bloke who bases 40% of their personality around bacon but others have realized there's other ways and also realized who will be on the right side of history on that one. It might take lab based meat to sway you but others have already made a change, even if it's just reducing meat consumption via some like meat free Thursdays or whatever.

Regarding cars, the people that refuse the notion of EVs because petrol cars are a large part of their identity and are presumably desperate to suck off Jeremy Clarkson or any other top gear folk are a small portion of the population. Not everyone is the same, some people are actually considerate beyond their own likes / dislikes or convenience with no consideration of the impact, that idea seems to escape you, much like empathy does.

Flying wise, much like cars if we focus on it we'll find a more efficient way to do it but I do appreciate that many would not want to move away from the convenience of it within the pressures of today's life. 2 hour flight including a nightmare airport trip to Istanbul or a leisurely 4/5 day trip on a continental train stopping off at places on the way, there are ways to do things if we stop pretending to be in a rush.

As for the whole last paragraph, again I'll ask, what credentials do you have to be telling other people how to live their lives? There might be some projecting / envy going on there. You're indicating that you're irritated by Greta campaigning for change in climate policy by labelling it as virtue signalling and would be happier if she spent the time sleeping around whilst off her tits because she is young, does that view sound odd at all when it's recited back to you?

 

[Rorschach]

They’ll have to pay me to get rid. This is a woodsman’s cottage, in the woods, with a fireplace in each of the four rooms, and it’s next to the m25. We are surrounded by dead ash trees right now.

It isn’t like Tarquin buying in pellets from Estonia to burn in the middle of Camden and drilling a hole in his wall to vent the flue.

I'm not sure I get your point about Tarquin and the flue, but pellets are less polluting than wood afaik.

 

[scaramanga]

Who has said that people need to live in colder houses!? Absurd strawman. The current system is making people live in cold houses because a conflict in Ukraine spiked the prices and many can't afford heating, if governments were more proactive about not relying on fossil fuels it wouldn't be a problem. Already I'm gauging that you're not aware of the issues with how things currently are, whilst pretending things would be worse doing anything else.

As for not eating meat, plenty of people don't and it's not some new fangled idea. Life isn't worse by not consuming the flesh of what were sentient beings. You very well might be the kind of bloke who bases 40% of their personality around bacon but others have realized there's other ways and also realized who will be on the right side of history on that one. It might take lab based meat to sway you but others have already made a change, even if it's just reducing meat consumption via some like meat free Thursdays or whatever.

Regarding cars, the people that refuse the notion of EVs because petrol cars are a large part of their identity and are presumably desperate to suck off Jeremy Clarkson or any other top gear folk are a small portion of the population. Not everyone is the same, some people are actually considerate beyond their own likes / dislikes or convenience with no consideration of the impact, that idea seems to escape you, much like empathy does.

Flying wise, much like cars if we focus on it we'll find a more efficient way to do it but I do appreciate that many would not want to move away from the convenience of it within the pressures of today's life. 2 hour flight including a nightmare airport trip to Istanbul or a leisurely 4/5 day trip on a continental train stopping off at places on the way, there are ways to do things if we stop pretending to be in a rush.

As for the whole last paragraph, again I'll ask, what credentials do you have to be telling other people how to live their lives? There might be some projecting / envy going on there. You're indicating that you're irritated by Greta campaigning for change in climate policy by labelling it as virtue signalling and would be happier if she spent the time sleeping around whilst off her tits because she is young, does that view sound odd at all when it's recited back to you?

I've been to a vegetarian restaurant - a rather good one at that. It's no substitute for real food.

I have an EV - the one considered by many to be the best at the moment. It's just not as much fun as a real car. As a method of getting the kids to their schools and the shopping home it's as good as any car (assuming I'm not in too much of a hurry) but it will never be fun the way a good car is.

Airports are rarely much hassle - you just have to do it right. The only exceptions being MCO, who often force everyone to use the same check in desks and DOH, who make you wait for the extended families of royals before you can go anywhere.

I can tell people how to do it right because I got it right. If someone makes such a poor decision as not enjoying their youth, it becomes hard to take them seriously on everything else they do.

 

[johnola]

I'm not sure I get your point about Tarquin and the flue, but pellets are less polluting than wood afaik.

You said something about aesthetics.
How can pellets made from wood be less bad than wood?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I've been to a vegetarian restaurant - a rather good one at that. It's no substitute for real food.

I have an EV - the one considered by many to be the best at the moment. It's just not as much fun as a real car. As a method of getting the kids to their schools and the shopping home it's as good as any car (assuming I'm not in too much of a hurry) but it will never be fun the way a good car is.

Airports are rarely much hassle - you just have to do it right. The only exceptions being MCO, who often force everyone to use the same check in desks and DOH, who make you wait for the extended families of royals before you can go anywhere.

I can tell people how to do it right because I got it right. If someone makes such a poor decision as not enjoying their youth, it becomes hard to take them seriously on everything else they do.

'He's a man with a plan'...

 

[Rorschach]

You said something about aesthetics.
How can pellets made from wood be less bad than wood?

I didn't say anything about aesthetics, just pollution. You might be confusing me with someone else.

What I should have said was pellet stoves are less polluting than regular wood stoves because of their design, but both are bad for your health and the environment.

 

[johnola]

I didn't say anything about aesthetics, just pollution. You might be confusing me with someone else.

What I should have said was pellet stoves are less polluting than regular wood stoves because of their design, but both are bad for your health and the environment.

Fair enough. You didn’t I must be losing my marbles.

 

[Rorschach]

Fair enough. You didn’t I must be losing my marbles.

You are not losing your marbles. I put in a quote from a publication which mentioned aesthetics which I forgot about. I think they were referring to the aesthetics of a naked flame rather than the flue or whatever.

 

[johnola]

You are not losing your marbles. I put in a quote from a publication which mentioned aesthetics which I forgot about. I think they were referring to the aesthetics of a naked flame rather than the flue or whatever.

There is definitely a physical warming effect from looking into a fire. Whilst the radiant heat from a fire has different properties to the conductive hot air heat of central heating.

I would definitely miss these but I have had my tv set to the YouTube channel of a burning fire before when I couldn’t be bothered with the faff of the stove.

 

[Jurgen the German]

LOL. Do you think all she does is just virtue-signalling? I guess to some all virtue looks like virtue signalling, but this is about as bad a read as I've seen on here. I think the question you should be asking yourself is why like so many men do you find yourself triggered by this young autistic woman who is certainly virtue practicing rather than signaling.

I think Greta is fantastic. I wish more people of her generation acted like her when it comes to climate instead of just being all talk and no action. As to why so many men get triggered by her, I’ve often wondered this myself, I guess people don’t like to be spoken to or about as if they are being talked down to which isn’t Greta’s fault, maybe she is a little in-artful when she expresses herself at times but she’s still only 20. She gets peoples backs up but I’d like to think they are the kind of people who don’t care about the environment anyway and are a lost cause. The danger is she alienates people who are on the fence or those who can be convinced, I think it’s baffling that people still can’t see the planet is utterly screwed but that’s another discussion. I think we are going to have to start adapting. Sadly I am inclined to agree with Scara’s view that people are selfish. That doesn’t mean we should stop fighting for this planet but I have my doubts as to whether you are going to get 7 billion people to pull in the same direction, Covid showed it was impossible.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I've been to a vegetarian restaurant - a rather good one at that. It's no substitute for real food.

I have an EV - the one considered by many to be the best at the moment. It's just not as much fun as a real car. As a method of getting the kids to their schools and the shopping home it's as good as any car (assuming I'm not in too much of a hurry) but it will never be fun the way a good car is.

Airports are rarely much hassle - you just have to do it right. The only exceptions being MCO, who often force everyone to use the same check in desks and DOH, who make you wait for the extended families of royals before you can go anywhere.

I can tell people how to do it right because I got it right. If someone makes such a poor decision as not enjoying their youth, it becomes hard to take them seriously on everything else they do.

I've been to a vegetarian restaurant - a rather good one at that. It's no substitute for real food.

I have an EV - the one considered by many to be the best at the moment. It's just not as much fun as a real car. As a method of getting the kids to their schools and the shopping home it's as good as any car (assuming I'm not in too much of a hurry) but it will never be fun the way a good car is.

Airports are rarely much hassle - you just have to do it right. The only exceptions being MCO, who often force everyone to use the same check in desks and DOH, who make you wait for the extended families of royals before you can go anywhere.

I can tell people how to do it right because I got it right. If someone makes such a poor decision as not enjoying their youth, it becomes hard to take them seriously on everything else they do.

Pains me to agree with your assessment about human nature but I can’t disagree. People aren’t going to fly less, stop eating meat etc. I think we could all cut down which would help but I couldn’t give up meat and I don’t want to. Once synthetic meat becomes readily available and affordable to the public then it’s game over as I’ve also heard accounts that it’s indistinguishable from actual meat. Technology is the way out of this problem I agree.

Back to Greta, I can’t help but think her tone isn’t effective. But it is an emergency, how else should she approach an issue which she rightly sees as the most urgent issue on the planet? I would like to see gen z and millennials stop lecturing the older generations about how they ruined the planet. When you love Bitcoin as much as they do, pig out and conveniences like Amazon adore the likes of Kylie Jenner who has rooms full of clothes she never wears, quite frankly you’re in no position to lecture others about ruining the planet. Greta is an outlier IMO and actually follows through on the things she says. We need more people like her, just maybe express their views in a different way.

 

[Jurgen the German]

You don't think we should be serious about the impact humans are having on the planet? Seems like a fairly apathetic view with a sprinkle of "this has personally affected my commute so it is bad" thrown in for good measure.

I'm fairly certain Greta isn't constantly serious about everything, but is passionate about something who can benefit humanity greatly moving forward (unless it's too late, which for many it is). For those who's mission in life is to just look after themselves it must be frustrating / embarrassing to see other people that actually want to help others and improve things. Age isn't really a factor unless you get worked up by the idea of boomers / Gen Z / millennials being pitted against each other via culture war distractions, it's never too late nor early to do something positive.

I’ve always wondered how/why Gen X are left out of the culture wars. Seems like it’s Gen Z/Millenials v boomers as you point out and it’s skipped a generation (Gen X).

 

[spurspinter1]

I’ve always wondered how/why Gen X are left out of the culture wars. Seems like it’s Gen Z/Millenials v boomers as you point out and it’s skipped a generation (Gen X).

They're all just oversimplistic labels to get people hot and bothered anyway. Even in your above post "I would like to see Gen Z and Millennials stop lecturing older generations about how they've ruined the planet", then proceeding to play the blame game by bringing up Bitcoin, pigging out and amazon, these traits aren't exclusively limited to young folk so you're attributing a mass generalisation to devalue someone's argument.

It's not about age, it's about what you do and there are plenty of people who make active choices with a mind to helping the environment, no doubt they'd be labelled as virtue signalers who are just caring loudly. The thing is, it's easier to assume everyone else won't change and then use that as an excuse to not change your own actions. "Why should I stop doing X / Y / Z, everyone else does it?" and that attitude will be the death of us. Because I think everyone else is a clam, I'm going to act a clam myself. Whether it's the meat or fossil fuels lobbyists, every effort is made to belittle those who are actually doing the right thing. There's so many jokes about vegans or ridiculous narratives to undermine what they're doing but it's based on the uncomfortable truth from a moral and environmental standpoint. I say this whilst not being a vegan myself to be clear, cutting down makes sense but I'll admit that getting people to stop entirely isn't really the way to go, funnily enough people don't like being told they're compliant in processes involving raping cows etc. The dairy industry is diabolical but I do still partake occasionally, at least alternatives are getting better and are more accessible, oat milk is brilliant but not sure if pretend cheese will ever stack up to the real thing...

 

[scaramanga]

Pains me to agree with your assessment about human nature but I can’t disagree. People aren’t going to fly less, stop eating meat etc. I think we could all cut down which would help but I couldn’t give up meat and I don’t want to. Once synthetic meat becomes readily available and affordable to the public then it’s game over as I’ve also heard accounts that it’s indistinguishable from actual meat. Technology is the way out of this problem I agree.

Back to Greta, I can’t help but think her tone isn’t effective. But it is an emergency, how else should she approach an issue which she rightly sees as the most urgent issue on the planet? I would like to see gen z and millennials stop lecturing the older generations about how they ruined the planet. When you love Bitcoin as much as they do, pig out and conveniences like Amazon adore the likes of Kylie Jenner who has rooms full of clothes she never wears, quite frankly you’re in no position to lecture others about ruining the planet. Greta is an outlier IMO and actually follows through on the things she says. We need more people like her, just maybe express their views in a different way.

There are lots of people like her. Some are even grown ups and therefore worthy of our time. Some of them are even real people that don't feel the need to inconvenience me when I move around London.

 

[scaramanga]

raping cows etc. The dairy industry is diabolical but I do still partake occasionally,

You monster.

 

[Jurgen the German]

They're all just oversimplistic labels to get people hot and bothered anyway. Even in your above post "I would like to see Gen Z and Millennials stop lecturing older generations about how they've ruined the planet", then proceeding to play the blame game by bringing up Bitcoin, pigging out and amazon, these traits aren't exclusively limited to young folk so you're attributing a mass generalisation to devalue someone's argument.

It's not about age, it's about what you do and there are plenty of people who make active choices with a mind to helping the environment, no doubt they'd be labelled as virtue signalers who are just caring loudly. The thing is, it's easier to assume everyone else won't change and then use that as an excuse to not change your own actions. "Why should I stop doing X / Y / Z, everyone else does it?" and that attitude will be the death of us. Because I think everyone else is a clam, I'm going to act a clam myself. Whether it's the meat or fossil fuels lobbyists, every effort is made to belittle those who are actually doing the right thing. There's so many jokes about vegans or ridiculous narratives to undermine what they're doing but it's based on the uncomfortable truth from a moral and environmental standpoint. I say this whilst not being a vegan myself to be clear, cutting down makes sense but I'll admit that getting people to stop entirely isn't really the way to go, funnily enough people don't like being told they're compliant in processes involving raping cows etc. The dairy industry is diabolical but I do still partake occasionally, at least alternatives are getting better and are more accessible, oat milk is brilliant but not sure if pretend cheese will ever stack up to the real thing...

I’ve just pointed out that people of my age and younger often point the finger at older people for ruining the planet but if you idolise people like Kylie Jenner and enjoy pigging out on luxury and consumption then you’re not in a position to judge others. I largely agree with the rest of your post. We shouldn’t give up but I’m pessimistic about our chances of solving this problem, I think we will have to just adapt and hope technology comes up with the answers

 

[spurspinter1]

You monster.

To a certain degree, absolutely. I'd say at least I acknowledge it but that possibly may make it even worse (just in case it's not clear from the wording it's not me going around raping cows or commiting other heinous acts solely for taste pleasure).

If we all cut down to reasonable levels of dairy then there would be less need for the horrifying practices enacted on animals. Milk is in pretty much everything, I had a family member who had a kid with serious lactose intolerance problems and it's a nightmare trying to find dairy free products, even in things you'd never expect dairy.

 

[spurspinter1]

I’ve just pointed out that people of my age and younger often point the finger at older people for ruining the planet but if you idolise people like Kylie Jenner and enjoy pigging out on luxury and consumption then you’re not in a position to judge others. I largely agree with the rest of your post. We shouldn’t give up but I’m pessimistic about our chances of solving this problem, I think we will have to just adapt and hope technology comes up with the answers

This may be pedantic but some may point the finger at certain demographics, not all and those doing so many not appreciate that older people didn't have access to the same technology and awareness that we are privy to today. It's an unhelpful stance from either perspective to blame people of a certain age demographic. It still happens but then we cycle back to the culture war point of everyone being mad at everyone else which takes the pressure off the people who actually have the authority to change things but would lose out on profits by doing so.

With Amazon and the like, it's the everything all the time aspect that's kind of haunting. The convenience of being able to click a button and something arrives later on the same day, we can figure that brick out but not something like I don't know, affordable housing?

 

[scaramanga]

To a certain degree, absolutely. I'd say at least I acknowledge it but that possibly may make it even worse (just in case it's not clear from the wording it's not me going around raping cows or commiting other heinous acts solely for taste pleasure).

If we all cut down to reasonable levels of dairy then there would be less need for the horrifying practices enacted on animals. Milk is in pretty much everything, I had a family member who had a kid with serious lactose intolerance problems and it's a nightmare trying to find dairy free products, even in things you'd never expect dairy.

It wasn't at all clear from the wording.

An even better solution to the tasty things that grow on a farm and moo/oink is a smaller population. In fact, the elephant in the room (never tried eating that - I imagine it would taste like McDonalds "meat") is that pretty much all of our climate issues can be solved with population reduction.

I remember learning at school that there were nearly 5bn people in the world and being amazed at what a huge number that is. We're somewhere north of 8bn now in just a generation and a bit.

The biggest and best result we can have for the climate is the education/equality of women around the world and freedom from religion (specifically those that forbid contraception or consider women to be the property of men).

 

[spurspinter1]

It wasn't at all clear from the wording.

An even better solution to the tasty things that grow on a farm and moo/oink is a smaller population. In fact, the elephant in the room (never tried eating that - I imagine it would taste like McDonalds "meat") is that pretty much all of our climate issues can be solved with population reduction.

I remember learning at school that there were nearly 5bn people in the world and being amazed at what a huge number that is. We're somewhere north of 8bn now in just a generation and a bit.

The biggest and best result we can have for the climate is the education/equality of women around the world and freedom from religion (specifically those that forbid contraception or consider women to be the property of men).

It would possibly solve the climate effects but not the question of ethics. If we think it's cool to do what we do to sentient animals because we're more cleverer, then shouldn't AI have the same right to do the same if not worse to us?

I know this isn't what you mean on McDonald's "meat" but the mcplant is actually pretty good, especially when blackout drunk!

The result and best result we can hope for is learning to live sustainably by means of renewable energy, it's odd to bring your anti religion stuff in to it but yes education and equal civil / human rights is something to strive for. You should add it in to your seminars telling young people to fudge around and drink / imbibe to excess otherwise you won't consider their views valid.