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Harry Winks

This whole thread is Diamond Diamond Diamond Diamond!

We were only 2-1 down when we ditched the diamond.
It was playing some weird 442/4231 hybrid when we conceded 5 goals.
 
SylDave said:
It’s nothing to do with Sissoko why he is playing at the base, I don’t want Sissoko in the team but you can’t spacegoat him for this.

We started playing this formation against Fulham at Wembley second game of last season, then played it in the 3-0 at Old Trafford and more frequently than is thought in the first half of last season, Dier, Wanyama(on the occasions he was known to be alive) and Skipp all played the right sided “box to box role” Sissoko is now being asked to play, Dembele and Winks were alternating at the base and Alli/Eriksen the tip and right side, Sissoko didn’t get anywhere near the team until Mid to late November until injuries meant he had to play by default.
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Is the truth of the situation.

And we look as comfortable with it now as we did then.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
It is worth pointing out - I think its clear NDombele is far from 400% in shape, and is clearly still trying to acclimate. Not easy while the team is so out of sorts.

Not really fair to judge him right now.

Ive seen enough to think he could well be an upgrade on Dembele in time, in pretty well all aspects.
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The guy is gonna Be huge for us
 
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SteveAWOL said:
As much as I like StatsBomb radars there’s still the question of how long it takes for N’dombele to adjust from playing in Farmer’s League to EPL... plus even his defensive stats for that league are inferior to old Mousa Dembele.


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whilst Winks defensive contribution remains questionable...

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Everyone's inferior to Dembele - the world needs to realise that.
 
fernadez said:
The amount of times I say to myself 'this wouldn't happen if Dembele was playing' is starting to get worrying.

It's starting to look like all Poch's success was built around having one of the best midfielders in the game running the show.
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Ssssshhhhh. Managers aren't allowed to exploit the use of elite players - see AVB/Bale for details.
 
SylDave said:
It’s nothing to do with Sissoko why he is playing at the base, I don’t want Sissoko in the team but you can’t spacegoat him for this.

We started playing this formation against Fulham at Wembley second game of last season, then played it in the 3-0 at Old Trafford and more frequently than is thought in the first half of last season, Dier, Wanyama(on the occasions he was known to be alive) and Skipp all played the right sided “box to box role” Sissoko is now being asked to play, Dembele and Winks were alternating at the base and Alli/Eriksen the tip and right side, Sissoko didn’t get anywhere near the team until Mid to late November until injuries meant he had to play by default.
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Its not spacegoating at all, its observation.

When it was clear Sissoko was going to be our only reliable midfielder, we started playing him all around the midfield in various roles/ways to see what got the best out of him.

Putting him in a relatively free roaming role to just be a bull in a china shop seemed the least worst/most effective way to play him.

That meant Winks, as our only other (semi) fit midfielder had to accommodate him, try and make the best of the situation. With Poch deciding he had the smarts and ability to sit in midfield and help us positionally and in possession.

Its nothing to do with an anti-Sissoko slant, scape goating or any of it. Its simply how I saw things develop.

Personally I think that was a mistake, and said as much at the time. Id have much rather fashioned Sissoko in to a Parker-like DM, sitting in front of the back line, staying deep and hunting/chasing/killing anything that came into our third. Allowing Winks (and whoever else was fit), as fundamentally better footballers, the freedom to play further forward and effect the game.

We could have had a solid defensive platform from which we could try and build some consistency, Sissoko would have been there all season providing it. Poch chose another way.


Bedfordspurs said:
The guy isn’t gonna Be huge for us
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Isnt?
 
We shipped out Dembele to china because he was crocked.
Dier has dubious long term fitness.
Wanyama crocked.

Then we wonder why Poch is so reliant on Sissoko.

Our midfield is/was threadbare.

Far too many longterm injuries to be a coincidence surely?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Its not spacegoating at all, its observation.

When it was clear Sissoko was going to be our only reliable midfielder, we started playing him all around the midfield in various roles/ways to see what got the best out of him.

Putting him in a relatively free roaming role to just be a bull in a china shop seemed the least worst/most effective way to play him.

That meant Winks, as our only other (semi) fit midfielder had to accommodate him, try and make the best of the situation. With Poch deciding he had the smarts and ability to sit in midfield and help us positionally and in possession.

Its nothing to do with an anti-Sissoko slant, scape goating or any of it. Its simply how I saw things develop.

Personally I think that was a mistake, and said as much at the time. Id have much rather fashioned Sissoko in to a Parker-like DM, sitting in front of the back line, staying deep and hunting/chasing/killing anything that came into our third. Allowing Winks (and whoever else was fit), as fundamentally better footballers, the freedom to play further forward and effect the game.

We could have had a solid defensive platform from which we could try and build some consistency, Sissoko would have been there all season providing it. Poch chose another way.
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I don’t disagree with anything you said regarding Sissoko, I don’t want him anywhere near the team, but I was responding to you saying Winks is playing this role because of Sissoko, he is not, Dembele or Winks we’re playing at the base before Sissoko was anywhere near the team, and Dier, Wanyama or Skipp we’re playing the role that Sissoko now is, which to me shows what Poch wants from this system.
 
Like I said previously … I think he is a tidy player that rarely gives the ball away but apart from that I think he gives nothing to the team … is the Tom Carroll of the Poch team.

I like him as a person … but that's about it.
 
SylDave said:
I don’t disagree with anything you said regarding Sissoko, I don’t want him anywhere near the team, but I was responding to you saying Winks is playing this role because of Sissoko, he is not, Dembele or Winks we’re playing at the base before Sissoko was anywhere near the team, and Dier, Wanyama or Skipp we’re playing the role that Sissoko now is, which to me shows what Poch wants from this system.
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And if you read the whole post, you will know exactly why I think he is there because of Sissoko (or, more specifically, how Poch thought best to use him).

The period you are referencing was a clusterfudge, and IMO it was clearly a period of trying desperately to find something that worked, rather than playing by some specific design.

Dembele in then out, Dier in then out, WInks in then out, oh fudge lets try this Skipp lad, not ready yet, who have I got? Sissoko is the only one here who can play every game, ok, where do I play him? Base - not good enough, AMR? Not good enough, b2b beserker? Well its not great but I can work with it...
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
And if you read the whole post, you will know exactly why I think he is there because of Sissoko (or, more specifically, how Poch thought best to use him).

The period you are referencing was a clusterfudge, and IMO it was clearly a period of trying desperately to find something that worked, rather than playing by some specific design.

Dembele in then out, Dier in then out, WInks in then out, oh fudge lets try this Skipp lad, not ready yet, who have I got? Sissoko is the only one here who can play every game, ok, where do I play him? Base - not good enough, AMR? Not good enough, b2b beserker? Well its not great but I can work with it...
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Im talking about the very beginning of last season from August onwards, Dembele/Winks were rotating due to Dembele’s fitness, but Dier was playing week in week out before any Illness/injuries and was being chosen as the right side of the diamond, Dembele/Winks playing at the base had nothing to with squad limitation imo, it was by design and still is.
 
SylDave said:
Im talking about the very beginning of last season from August onwards, Dembele/Winks were rotating due to Dembele’s fitness, but Dier was playing week in week out before any Illness/injuries and was being chosen as the right side of the diamond, Dembele/Winks playing at the base had nothing to with squad limitation imo, it was by design and still is.
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And Im talking about past that, when we settled into the shape we have now.

What you describe is hardly a stable situation is it? We came out of that with Winks at the base and Sissoko doing his thing as the accepted norm.
 
SylDave said:
Im talking about the very beginning of last season from August onwards, Dembele/Winks were rotating due to Dembele’s fitness, but Dier was playing week in week out before any Illness/injuries and was being chosen as the right side of the diamond, Dembele/Winks playing at the base had nothing to with squad limitation imo, it was by design and still is.
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How I see it as well. At that point we had options in personnel and formation and Poch played the diamond.

The Utd game where Lucas scored twice probably solidified it in his mind, but I was at that game and the scoreline flattered us slightly.

The changes in line up at that time was to try and find a selection that made the formation work rather than for any lack of options, we could have easily been playing 4-2-3-1. From that start of that season he's tried to have Winks at the base and everything built around that.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
And Im talking about past that, when we settled into the shape we have now.

What you describe is hardly a stable situation is it? We came out of that with Winks at the base and Sissoko doing his thing as the accepted norm.
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But when he had a full squad to select from he still actively choose Dembele/Winks at the base and Dier/Wanyama/Skipp on the right, why do you think that it is anything but Poch’s vision of the system he wants, Sissoko has effectively came in as that right sided box to box player.

fernadez said:
How I see it as well. At that point we had options in personnel and formation and Poch played the diamond.

The Utd game where Lucas scored twice probably solidified it in his mind, but I was at that game and the scoreline flattered us slightly.

The changes in line up at that time was to try and find a selection that made the formation work rather than for any lack of options, we could have easily been playing 4-2-3-1. From that start of that season he's tried to have Winks at the base and everything built around that.
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Poch even said himself after that game the result flattered us, I think it had more to do with United being in meltdown at the time, we then went and played three at the back away to Watford in the next game and looked awful.
 
SylDave said:
But when he had a full squad to select from he still actively choose Dembele/Winks at the base and Dier/Wanyama/Skipp on the right, why do you think that it is anything but Poch’s vision of the system he wants, Sissoko has effectively came in as that right sided box to box player.
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Because unlike you, I dont think he was making those choices by design, I think he was fighting fires.

Sissoko was played in a variety of ways, as was Winks, usually in an attempt to get some semblence of a midfield between all the upheaval we were having via constant injuries.

You dont agree, thats fine. I think Ive explained my point enough that we can just accept that.
 
mjc23 said:
Can we just accept he's not the lovechild of Modric and Pirlo. A tidy player who needs to be playing alongside an enforcer who offers him some protection.
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Could not agree more, he will be a very good player playing with Dier behind him. He is being asked to do a job that does not show him at his best.


nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
He seems to be being spacegoated right now, not sure why.

Wasnt his finest performance, but we had plenty worse out there.
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Agree with this as well.
 
parklane1 said:
Could not agree more, he will be a very good player playing with Dier behind him. He is being asked to do a job that does not show him at his best.




Agree with this as well.
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He is not the spacegoat but he is asked to do a job that he clearly is not up to
 
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