Hard work

[Rorschach]

Personally I'd rather have Tevez than Berbatov. Tevez's ability is equally as good AND he tries hard.

Tevez is superb but he's not on the same level in terms of pure skill as Berbatov, imo.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Tevez is superb but he's not on the same level in terms of pure skill as Berbatov, imo.

Berbatov is a more skillful player and has a better first touch. They both can score from set pieces. I think Tevez is a better finisher. Tevez won Emirates Marketing Project so many points in the 2010/11 season, nearly as many as Van Persie won for Arsenal last season.

 

[Lily White]

I suppose as fans we want our players to show as much passion for the game and our team as we do, we appreciate players who put the effort in regardless of natural skill and talent.

 

[milo]

I suppose as fans we want our players to show as much passion for the game and our team as we do, we appreciate players who put the effort in regardless of natural skill and talent.

I agree. Do you think that is a particularly British attitude or do you think that it is universal?

 

[scaramanga]

Whilst a talented, hard-working player is the ideal, I'll take a lazy, talented player over a talentless hard-worker every time.

 

[AuroRaman]

Sorry mate don't agree with some of that.

- Agree that Brits that work in the UK are very hard working. I suppose they have to in order to have a decent lifestyle.

- Don't agree with the work rate or ethic of of Brit expats in Africa. For a lot of them it is like a holiday, and a major upgrade to their
lifestyle. They come from living in a flat or a semi detached to be housed free in a mansion in a safe leafy suburb. On top of this they have company provided gardeners, house help, cook etc. In a place like Kenya, they spend as much time as they can to visit the game parks,
beaches, play golf, tennis ( membership provided by the company) BTW, this does not apply to the Brits alone. Most western expats are the same. What I have noticed is that we are getting more Asian expats. They cost less and work harder, and are usually more qualified. Plus they adapt more easily to the local conditions.

- Agreed The work shy lot need sorting out. The current welfare system in the UK will cause a disaster very soon.

All IMO of course.

That's fair enough mate. I haven't been to Kenya so you have a much better understanding of things in this part of the world.

 

[awesome dawson]

Hard working players aren't necessarily the kind of players we need. Michael Brown works hard but he's extremely limited. Dirk Kyut works hard.

However when someone like Ade sulks around (and Berbatov was guilty of this towards the end) just because they think they're above having to try, it p1sses me off.

 

[Fuego]

I agree. Do you think that is a particularly British attitude or do you think that it is universal?

It's more British than universal. It's not exclusively British and there are tons of different ways of looking at it.

I love pressing, so if a player presses but when we have the ball doesn't even move half of the time, walks around and comes alive with the ball at his feet, that's more acceptable to me than someone who doesn't press but runs the rest of the time... So that's why I needed to clarify that. But the term "luxury player" comes up over here plenty, I'm not sure how many other countries have such a term.

We don't have so many number 10s, not proper number 10s. Our strikers traditionally are supposed to do something... England was the home of the 442 for so long, wingers were wide midfielders, every midfielder whether wide or cm was almost expected to be box to box. The English game is about running around like headless chickens for end to end matches, being physical and physically fit were hugely important qualities.

You look at England football teams and you could see a reflection of the English game. Running and running, trying, no rotation policy. The result was usually good group games, getting tired in the knockout rounds and going out of international tournaments.

Whilst a talented, hard-working player is the ideal, I'll take a lazy, talented player over a talentless hard-worker every time.

This, all day long. I'd rather have a team are lazy and camp in the opposition's box, passing them to bits and playing at a walking pace rather than a team of headless chickens that try really hard but don't have the skill required.

If you put some of the best lazy Italian club teams against some of the most hard working English 4th tier teams, the hard work and bravery will be demolished by the team that is simply better.


That said, qualities loved by English media? I suppose "media" is the right word, but watchers of football too.... Anyway, those qualities would see a team of big, strong, hard working, brave, blah blah blah players. I've always preferred technical ability to physical attributes, so it's only natural for me to stick with technical ability here. Whether it's a case of "can not" work hard or "will not" work hard might also come into it.

Times are changing, but if you look at the English players this country has produced, it has not been with a technical focus.


For the record, I'm not saying everything has to be the extreme. It's not a choice between a Messi that only walks or a guy that has no technical ability but runs for 95 minutes a match. If it's a case of having a team with A grade technical ability that still do the basics when it comes to work that doesn't seem too bad.

 

[awesome dawson]

Ha the idea that the British are lazy is an idea only people who have never been outside the UK have. Go to Spain, Greece or Italy...you'll find out what lazy means. Every football fan of every nation loves a trier. It makes them relate to the player as there's a guy that appears to care at least half as much as they do!

In Australia, British workers have a reputation for being hard working.

Whether this is due to the Aussies being lazy or because most of the people who head over here are motivated, I'm not sure but as a nation I don't think it is accurate to say that the British are lazy.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think what I am asking is whether British fans (or is it a northern European thing?) value application and effort over other attributes?

I think one sign of this could be British fans impatience with possession play, at any ground in the country you will hear fans screaming for a team to get the ball forward quickly, if it is being passed sideways or backwards.

I think it is a British thing. It goes back to Sunday League/Hackney Marshes type football when anybody who would try to put their foot on the ball or dribble they have the shouts of 'don't mess about there!' or 'get rid of it' or 'don't let him do that!' (after which he'd be wellied).

Probably other factors that mean in England the 'trying' and 'running about a bit' is more prevalent are the fact it was always mostly a working class game, played in a less hot climate than say Brazil and in essesnce is a simple game that most people feel they can achieve the main aim (scoring a goal) by doing what anybody can do and doesn't particularly need having GHod goven talents - upping your work and appliaction.

 

[Spursalot]

I think what I am asking is whether British fans (or is it a northern European thing?) value application and effort over other attributes?

I think one sign of this could be British fans impatience with possession play, at any ground in the country you will hear fans screaming for a team to get the ball forward quickly, if it is being passed sideways or backwards.

I'm british and i don't think you can be the real deal without a bit of both.

Not sure it's an overvaluing of application, it's just usually relatively easy to see if you think someone is giving it their all, however it's far more difficult to tell if it's their lack of ability that might be holding them back.


Passing backwards has it's merits, passing sideways does to. However what really does my nut in is when we pass sideways through our midfield so slowly that we may as well not even bother. You're supposed to be trying to work the opposition and create gaps but with Parker running in circles at times and Dembele not the quickest of decision makers we sometimes lull ourselves into doing it.


Our problem there is more that one of them is at his best taking on his man and the other when we don't even have the ball.

 

[Fuego]

I think it is a British thing. It goes back to Sunday League/Hackney Marshes type football when anybody who would try to put their foot on the ball or dribble they have the shouts of 'don't mess about there!' or 'get rid of it' or 'don't let him do that!' (after which he'd be wellied).

Oh fudge me. I just remembered "if in doubt, put it out"... My under 11 or under 12 team being coached to hoof the ball "clear" in our own half... Defenders that'd hit balls out for throw ins when there was not an opposition player anywhere near them. We must have averaged about 20% possession in matches, it was awful. Really really awful. That was the year we moved up to 11 a side... Horrible coaching.

Edit: Oh and the short players only allowed to play on the wings... Not even at full back. Hilarious. Our best players were tiny and were played out of position... Our strikers were the ones that had parents that transported the team.

OMG. I'm so glad I didn't persist with that team.


In fairness, I could defend, run quickly and score goals. (I used to score way more goals than anyone else in training matches, but that was due to me being fast and the defenders being big and slow as well as hoofing the ball all the time.) But I was played in midfield and didn't have the energy to run up and down for an entire match. So I would probably have been classed as lazy rather than hard working. I also lacked other qualities such as strength and height... (In my defence, I was stupid and tried to sprint all the time. So it wasn't a case of being lazy as such, just a case of not able to run all day. I wish someone would have told me about the merits of jogging. I had two speeds, sprinting and walking. Wasn't a problem in training but in matches with 20% possession, that'd be a problem.)

 

[scaramanga]

Oh fudge me. I just remembered "if in doubt, put it out"... My under 11 or under 12 team being coached to hoof the ball "clear" in our own half... Defenders that'd hit balls out for throw ins when there was not an opposition player anywhere near them. We must have averaged about 20% possession in matches, it was awful. Really really awful. That was the year we moved up to 11 a side... Horrible coaching.

Edit: Oh and the short players only allowed to play on the wings... Not even at full back. Hilarious. Our best players were tiny and were played out of position... Our strikers were the ones that had parents that transported the team.

OMG. I'm so glad I didn't persist with that team.


In fairness, I could defend, run quickly and score goals. (I used to score way more goals than anyone else in training matches, but that was due to me being fast and the defenders being big and slow as well as hoofing the ball all the time.) But I was played in midfield and didn't have the energy to run up and down for an entire match. So I would probably have been classed as lazy rather than hard working. I also lacked other qualities such as strength and height... (In my defence, I was stupid and tried to sprint all the time. So it wasn't a case of being lazy as such, just a case of not able to run all day. I wish someone would have told me about the merits of jogging. I had two speeds, sprinting and walking. Wasn't a problem in training but in matches with 20% possession, that'd be a problem.)

I played Left Back as a kid and I still remember gems like "the ball or the man gets past you, not both". Or "let him know you're there the first time he tries a bit of skill - he won't do it again".

The English game (in its pure form) is by far the least interesting I've ever seen and I include the Italian way of playing in that.

 

[Wriggly]

I think effort only really gets noticed when we are either chasing a game or playing brick. We are winning 4-0 and it wont matter.

If you're clever with the ball, the movement is good and the team is on the same wavelength then you dont have to run around like a Gordon Durie all game.

 

[he_is_you_know]

"Arbeit!", as Steffen Freund says. Without hard work, you're not really free to do any of the fancy flicks and tricks that we all love. We should pay special heed to our German chum's advice. Maybe we should even have something the players see every day when they drive in for training. Have a big sign on the gate saying Arbeit macht fr...oh, er, never mind actually.

 

[FatBloke]

"Arbeit!", as Steffen Freund says. Without hard work, you're not really free to do any of the fancy flicks and tricks that we all love. We should pay special heed to our German chum's advice. Maybe we should even have something the players see every day when they drive in for training. Have a big sign on the gate saying Arbeit macht fr...oh, er, never mind actually.

Arbeit macht Champions League?

 

[ArcspacE]

Arbeit macht Champions League?

Jawohl!

 

[Aldo]

"Arbeit!", as Steffen Freund says. Without hard work, you're not really free to do any of the fancy flicks and tricks that we all love. We should pay special heed to our German chum's advice. Maybe we should even have something the players see every day when they drive in for training. Have a big sign on the gate saying Arbeit macht fr...oh, er, never mind actually.

:lol:

 

[Kenyan Spur]

In Australia, British workers have a reputation for being hard working.

Whether this is due to the Aussies being lazy or because most of the people who head over here are motivated, I'm not sure but as a nation I don't think it is accurate to say that the British are lazy.

I feel I have to clarify my previous reply to AuroRaman..

I said that British Expats that I have come across in Africa are on a jolly.
This is because they are on a 2/3 year contract and want to enjoy the lifestyle etc.

On the other hand Brits who have emigrated to Australia, Canada, USA etc. are very different.

Expats are on a short term contract with everything provided/paid for.
On the other hand, guys who have decided to emigrate don"t have this luxury.
They are in it for the long haul. And they work very hard. They have to, in order to make a new better life.

I hope that clarifies my previous response to AuroRaman.