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Grass roots and the future

Where do you think all the youth players at premiership football clubs come from? Every single footballer starts at grass roots level - the more money pumped in to that level the higher the number of players produced and more than likely the overall quality of players produced. It's an investment in the future of the sport.

The clubs start to hunt round and take 4-6 year olds who mostly only just started at youth level as most clubs first age group is under 7s.

Two 5 year olds were taken from my sons club by spurs and one was let go just a year later.Thats ridiculous released at 6 as not good enough.

It could be crushing at that young age to be ditched already.Chelsea are supposedly the worst of the London clubs for poaching kids as they are not allowed to pay them to join they give them any gifts they want. I know a fella who used to work at scum and he was saying they started to ban scouts and agents from the younger kids games as all clubs are at it trying to pinch best talent from elsewhere using the we will give you this that the other to entice them away.

Prem clubs don't give a toss get them in chew them up and spit them out with there dreams in tatters even at an early age
 
It's a controversial view but I would like to see professional clubs stopped from having anything to do with kids below (I'm not certain on the age so this is plucking it out of thin air) 12 or 13.

If more money was taken from the top level and put into facilities and coaching in the amateur game, I think that the game would be improved and the quality of players coming through would be better.

Most importantly, I do not think that it is good for the kids to be linked to a professional club at that age or the affect it has on the vast majority of kids who do not go on to have a career as a professional footballer.
 
The clubs start to hunt round and take 4-6 year olds who mostly only just started at youth level as most clubs first age group is under 7s.

Two 5 year olds were taken from my sons club by spurs and one was let go just a year later.Thats ridiculous released at 6 as not good enough.

It could be crushing at that young age to be ditched already.Chelsea are supposedly the worst of the London clubs for poaching kids as they are not allowed to pay them to join they give them any gifts they want. I know a fella who used to work at scum and he was saying they started to ban scouts and agents from the younger kids games as all clubs are at it trying to pinch best talent from elsewhere using the we will give you this that the other to entice them away.

Prem clubs don't give a toss get them in chew them up and spit them out with there dreams in tatters even at an early age

Spot on. It would be far better if they could get access to good quality coaching close to home. Learn to enjoy the game but have a balanced childhood and a decent education.
 
Well there is obviously the bad side of playing through a system at a proffesional club. But also there are the benefits of better coaching on better surfaces and simply more coaching that will take you in the right direction as a young player. You can see the benefit it has with teams like Ajax so why cant that work here? the problem is with the prohibitive cost of good players these days every team is trying to poach young talent in the hope they will turn into the next star for their side on the cheap.

My friends son plays a lot of 6 a side. They have one coaching session a week. Its not enough to learn the basics really. I have been to see a fair few of his sons games. And although they do tend to play more on the ground due to the size of the pitch etc you can still see the big boys dominating, the state of the pitches causing them to have to play a certain way and the mentality of the coaches and parents to win at all costs.

If it was neccesary for any arranged league to have good quality pitches indoor or out and that any games were coached for enjoyment and not just winning then we might see that pass through to the later ages. Mucky pitches themself promote clogging it around to "get it up the other end" so to speak.

In the warmer climates its obviously much hotter, so kids tend to spend more time trying to be skillfull with the ball and not just running around expending energy. When i played with some guys in Portugal it was noticeable even for bit part players in their 30's who just want a kick around that they cared more about beating someone with skill than pace or strength. We need to be able to coach that in, then let the physicality of our nation be an addition to the player and not their main asset.
 
Spot on. It would be far better if they could get access to good quality coaching close to home. Learn to enjoy the game but have a balanced childhood and a decent education.
A friend of mine was approached by Chelsea and refused them for exactly that keeping up at school and not worrying solely about football and if he's good enough etc.

I fell this way as I know of a kid who come up with Wheelchair played through all the age groups with him was going places.
Broke his leg playing for scum 18s and after 12 months out they felt he fell behind at crucial period and released after that he went of the rails as only knew football from a young age.
 
Well there is obviously the bad side of playing through a system at a proffesional club. But also there are the benefits of better coaching on better surfaces and simply more coaching that will take you in the right direction as a young player. You can see the benefit it has with teams like Ajax so why cant that work here? the problem is with the prohibitive cost of good players these days every team is trying to poach young talent in the hope they will turn into the next star for their side on the cheap.

My friends son plays a lot of 6 a side. They have one coaching session a week. Its not enough to learn the basics really. I have been to see a fair few of his sons games. And although they do tend to play more on the ground due to the size of the pitch etc you can still see the big boys dominating, the state of the pitches causing them to have to play a certain way and the mentality of the coaches and parents to win at all costs.

If it was neccesary for any arranged league to have good quality pitches indoor or out and that any games were coached for enjoyment and not just winning then we might see that pass through to the later ages. Mucky pitches themself promote clogging it around to "get it up the other end" so to speak.

In the warmer climates its obviously much hotter, so kids tend to spend more time trying to be skillfull with the ball and not just running around expending energy. When i played with some guys in Portugal it was noticeable even for bit part players in their 30's who just want a kick around that they cared more about beating someone with skill than pace or strength. We need to be able to coach that in, then let the physicality of our nation be an addition to the player and not their main asset.

Agreed on some degree about facility's and coaching as a kid I toured with my youth side in holland and Spain the pitches were immaculate and facility's perfect where we would play on parks. So why not invest in youth football clubs aswell as taking kids early best of both worlds as ones not taken will progress to a better level as some bloom late .

As it stands it is prem clubs take there pick and forget the rest but a bit more funding will produce better footballers and they could still get picked up till late teens. I.e Smalling
 
Agreed on some degree about facility's and coaching as a kid I toured with my youth side in holland and Spain the pitches were immaculate and facility's perfect where we would play on parks. So why not invest in youth football clubs aswell as taking kids early best of both worlds as ones not taken will progress to a better level as some bloom late .

As it stands it is prem clubs take there pick and forget the rest but a bit more funding will produce better footballers and they could still get picked up till late teens. I.e Smalling

I Agree with all that. I think your point about surfaces abroad was what I was trying to get across as well. I feel the only way young players get to play on decent surfaces that promote playing and not clogging is through the main teams systems. As you say in Holland and Spain the local pitches were immaculate. You cannot say that about England unfortunately.

I would be all for Indoor Dome pitches to suit our terrible weather. but obviously that needs funding somehow. Also Schools and local clubs do not really train up the players. With the need for proper PE time and some teachers or coaches that are trained again its all just playing and not coaching.
 
I Agree with all that. I think your point about surfaces abroad was what I was trying to get across as well. I feel the only way young players get to play on decent surfaces that promote playing and not clogging is through the main teams systems. As you say in Holland and Spain the local pitches were immaculate. You cannot say that about England unfortunately.

I would be all for Indoor Dome pitches to suit our terrible weather. but obviously that needs funding somehow. Also Schools and local clubs do not really train up the players. With the need for proper PE time and some teachers or coaches that are trained again its all just playing and not coaching.

My concern with young children getting taken on by pro clubs is the impact it has on other (more important) areas of their life. Most children in that situation never go on to play professional football, I think that any system that we put in place should put their welfare at the centre.

Regarding funding, if the Premier League was forced to give up 10% of media rights to grassroots football and system was introduced to give fair compensation for the development of players, that should go a long way towards filling the gap.
 
if there was more money in the game at a grass roots level - more professional coaches, a better standard of pitches/training gear etc then those benefits which come from moving to a professional club could be experienced by a lot more children - and over the years i would assume it would go someway to raising the general level of English football (with the end result being a better national team and more home grown players in the premiership)

Galeforce - I guess this is where i see it differently to you is that the Premier League shouldn't be separate from the rest of the game - it should be English football as one - the success of the Premier League is the success of English football as a whole and in turn more money should find it's way down the rungs so as to ensure that English football as a whole remains the best it can be (whatever benefits the game at the bottom level benefits the game at the top basically is my view) it doesn't need to be an earth shattering amount X amount of professional youth coaches in each district, fully trained in the Uefa training courses - a higher standard of training pitches and equipment and so on - it really wouldn't amount to that much surely (compared to the 60 mil a year THFC look to be making in tv revenue alone in one season) and the benefits would be everlasting.
 
if there was more money in the game at a grass roots level - more professional coaches, a better standard of pitches/training gear etc then those benefits which come from moving to a professional club could be experienced by a lot more children - and over the years i would assume it would go someway to raising the general level of English football (with the end result being a better national team and more home grown players in the premiership)

Galeforce - I guess this is where i see it differently to you is that the Premier League shouldn't be separate from the rest of the game - it should be English football as one - the success of the Premier League is the success of English football as a whole and in turn more money should find it's way down the rungs so as to ensure that English football as a whole remains the best it can be (whatever benefits the game at the bottom level benefits the game at the top basically is my view) it doesn't need to be an earth shattering amount X amount of professional youth coaches in each district, fully trained in the Uefa training courses - a higher standard of training pitches and equipment and so on - it really wouldn't amount to that much surely (compared to the 60 mil a year THFC look to be making in tv revenue alone in one season) and the benefits would be everlasting.

It's funny that we can all agree on this topic and think it would in no doubt better the game in the country as a whole,yet very little is done by the people who need to make it happen Premier league /Fa
 
It's funny that we can all agree on this topic and think it would in no doubt better the game in the country as a whole,yet very little is done by the people who need to make it happen Premier league /Fa

The Premier League broke away from the Football League because they wanted to keep more money, so I think that it is unlikely that they would ever volunteer money to lower levels of the game.

Similarly, the FA have been given ultimatums by successive governments to reform and ignored them.

I think that the only way either will change is if they are forced to by the government.
 
Wouldn't summer football be an answer or start the season say last two weeks in july,so you've got a good two half / three months of daylight to play with before the clocks change....people start pre season training in july anyway so play up till xmas have 6 week break and finish the season in march/april.

Cricket may take a hit but end of the day you got to look after yourself inreality.
 
Wouldn't summer football be an answer or start the season say last two weeks in july,so you've got a good two half / three months of daylight to play with before the clocks change....people start pre season training in july anyway so play up till xmas have 6 week break and finish the season in march/april.

Cricket may take a hit but end of the day you got to look after yourself inreality.

The problem with that is I know a lot of clubs run cricket and football teams and the could not afford to lose the cricket section all together. So that won't happen in a lot of cases as said club would cease to exist as the money generated by all sections keep the clubs alive so you need the cricket to keep the football going and vice versa
 
Very interesting debate here re development of children.

I have a number friends (all aged 16-33) that have genuinely wanted to become footballers. The level that these guys play/ed at varies, but it ranges from playing from pro youth teams to playing first team football at decent non-league sides.

From what i can gather, i think if someone genuinely wants to be a footballer at the highest level they possibly can, then they should play for the biggest club possible from the youngest age possible. I think the level of "proffesionalism" in football has changed so much now compared to the 90's and 80's, that it is basically impossible for someone to ever play premier league football without having at least been part of a pro youth team(receiving the top quality training that these clubs offer) during a part of their teens.

If you look at players who have “worked their way up” these days, ie. Chris Smalling, Dwight Gayle etc, they have all at one stage in their lives been part of a pro youth setup. When you look at the premier league from the 90’s, we see loads of players such as Ian wright and Stuart Pearce who never played pro youth team football during their teens. It is my opinion that if someone hasn’t played pro youth team football during their teens, no matter what their dedication and talent, playing premier league football is probably impossible due to missing top level training at a key time period in their development. That is not to say they cannot play professional football (just not at the elite level of the premier league).

What my friends also stress is that the attitude and facilities also differ greatly when you go down the football ladder. I had a friend who was at Chelsea at 15 for 6 months, who then later joined Kingstonian’s youth team (a non-league side) when released, and another friend went from Fulham to Portsmouth (and is still there at 18 now). The guy from Chelsea not only talked of the change in facilities (which was expected), but also of the change in attitude. The players at Chelsea generally want to be a pro way more than those in a non-league youth team. This is shown through their level of professionalism in terms of training-rate, diets etc. Fulham to Portsmouth wasn’t as big a change obviously. But nonetheless, a slight drop in level was noticed here too.

In short, I guess my point here is that a bigger “culture of success” exists the higher up you go, and therefore each player thrives off each other in order to maintain a certain level of excellence. Kind of like the phenomena you get in private schools compared to public schools. And generally, when a player drops in level, part of his hunger goes too, and he carries this into his new (lower) club.


On the separate issue of “improving” the standard of football in England, and ultimately the national team, I don’t think the fundamental problem is the lack of resources at grass roots. Although an increase would no doubt help.

I think the problem more lies with the “English attitude” to the game and it’s interpretation of the rules. What I mean is that English football fans want to see their players (and children) “run around” and “get stuck in”, and “let the opposition know you’re there” etc. And because we value these kind of attributes and qualities more than any other country, our interpretation of the rules has also adjusted for this. As a result, we allow more things to go than other countries, who would blow up for a foul if the same incident happened in their country.

The problem with this is that at the elite (international) level:
1) Our players are playing to a different set of rules.
2) We haven’t developed the players that suit the international game.
Fundamentally, I think that we are producing players with massive quality and natural talent. But their development as players hinders them when playing in international competition. When I look at the likes of gerrard, lampard etc, they aren’t any different to the likes of pirlo, xavi, fabregas, schweinsteiger etc in terms of ability. The problem is that our players are about dynamism and “bravado” (as Ferguson puts it in his autobiography), because these are the traits that the English game develops and praises starting from grass-roots. The foreign bunch are more about technique (and less about “running around a lot” and “getting stuck in”), because they are a product of another youth system (with its own values). When we get the likes of Joe Cole and Glenn Hoddle etc, as English football fans, we don’t appreciate their qualities perhaps as much as a foreign fan may do, and hence, at the top level, our best players are the likes of Gerrard, whilst in Spain, it may be a Xavi or an Iniesta.

Moving onto the improvement of grass-roots facilities and equipment, I think this is a bit of a red herring to be honest. There are many countries around the world that produce top players who play in a technical manner that have far worse grass roots fascilities than us. I’m sure everyone here can name handfuls of them. And that is why, I think a change in the “English” football attitude/culture is probably our best hope of producing the kind of players that are suited to an international game.

I think this change is happening. We are starting to see more players like Wheelchair now. And at a level below the likes of Wheelchair, we are starting to see players like Tom Carrol, Tom Cleverley etc. Whilst in the “old-days” our second choice midfielders may have been the likes of Dennis Wise.
 
Thanks Neymar, that was an interesting post.

I don't think that anyone is arguing for thge current amateur set up over what top pro clubs can offer. What people (or at least I) am saying, is that if the Premier League money was shared around a bit more evenly then we could have better facilities and more trained coaches at the grass roots.

The onous should definitely be on technique and there would be space for players to join pro-clubs in their teens.
 
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