F.A statement on the word "yid"

[Bullet]

Do you think we'd even be having this conversation if we were known as an 'Asian club' and a mostly white crowd was chanting 'paki army' every week? And I don't think a few Asian fans in that instance saying they're fine with it would make things look any better.
?

Imagine if a club, say Aston Villa, had loads of Pakistani fans in the 80s and had been subject to loads of abuse during that time.
Imagine if the Villa fans had retaliated by chanting 'Paki army' and grouping together to fight back and look after the Pakistani fans in their fanbase.
Imagine if young Pakistani fans were attracted to the club because of that inclusiveness, a sign that it is OK and even positive to be a Pakistani football fan and a Villa fan.
And those young and old fans take pleasure in that feeling of inclusiveness at the games, they feel safe.
Meanwhile senior elder Pakistani figures in the community are not keen on the chanting and don't think it helps their cause at all.

Is that a fair comparison?

 

[SpursLodge]

Where did I say it was okay for him? That said, I just took your word for it that he does this but a quick search bring up articles where he specifically says he wouldn't use it in his songs for the reasoning I've already given. He can't reclaim something that wasn't his in the first place. I don't know if he's changed his mind since then but it wouldn't change anything. He'd be in the wrong if he was using it.

Maybe he's said that he wont use it but he certainly has in the past, I seem to remember a track in his back catalogue called Nigga where I'm pretty sure he uses it, a quick youtube search and you'll find it.

I've also heard interviews where black rappers have said that its fine for him to use it, again available on youtube.

The point here is whether you are using it to attack someone or not. We aren't using it in that way others are. Therefore, deal with them, once that's sorted then come to us and say, maybe it's time to let it go.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I don't see that anywhere? I don't think anyone is naive enough to think they'll stop just because we will but if we do then it does make the anti-Semitic language easier to root out. No one could then hide behind the 'they call themselves yids' thing and the naive people who think 'yid' just means 'Spurs fan' certainly might think again. Again, how do you distinguish between the hardcore anti-semites and those who simply mean 'yid' as in 'Spurs fan'? That is why he is saying that he wants the language out of football and to do that you can't say one set of fans can use it and another can't. That seems fairly sensible to me.



Mate, seriously, the far-right once tried to organise at Spurs and largely people did not walk away and leave them in place but instead showed them the door. So I don't have anytime for this argument that Baddiel, his brother and other Jews should stop supporting or going to Chelsea? Why should they? If they do then the bigots win. He has rightly made a stand and said he doesn't want to hear this ****e at football full stop. Again, how long would this have lasted if we'd become known as a 'black club' and called ourselves the 'nigger army'? Or an 'Asian club' chanting 'paki, paki, paki' at our heroes? Maybe after the upteempth points deduction? It has only been ignored in this instance, as Baddiel rightly says, because Jews are a tiny minority in the UK and any concerns can largely be ignored or dismissed. Up until now anyway.

"'Asian club' chanting 'paki, paki, paki' at our heroes?"
at the time Paki was offensive but common place - if we took this up in the 70's in the same way we did YIDs (at the time they would have been comparablly offensive, going to the Paki shop was even ok in the 80's) I think we would be in a safe place.

Words evolve as do societies - what meant one thing in the past does nto mean the same now, what once was ok is now not allowed.

The fact that Spurs took up the word Yid has made ti less powerful, think the same could be said for Nigger. Fact is we did not use a particlurly offensive word (as if we had used Paki) to shout, and now that word has more than one meaning. One is a word of pride for Tottenham of both our club and the way we have been inclusive of others in our history when others were not,

 

[treepits]

I think you can at least say you're reclaiming the word from the anti-Semites who have directed this at Jews over the years. It doesn't follow with non-Jews though - who are in the vast majority at games. I've never been racially abused as a 'yid'. It is not mine term to redefine or reclaim. Do you think we'd even be having this conversation if we were known as an 'Asian club' and a mostly white crowd was chanting 'paki army' every week? And I don't think a few Asian fans in that instance saying they're fine with it would make things look any better. It would quickly end after the fines and home games behind closed doors.

Which bring things onto a seperate point - which is how far will this be taken? For years the carrot approach has been used. 'Please stop using it' we've been asked from the various authorities. Now the stick is starting to appear. We onto to threats that individuals could be prosecuted. I think this is unworkable. They're going to prosecute tens of thousands of people? So the next step will be collective punishment. Fines, home games behind close doors, points deduction? What then?

But that's my point. I don't chant it to reclaim or redefine it, I do it because it's part of our identity as Spurs fans. I don't even think about the nasty connotations the word may have because it should be obvious to anyone that it is not being sung, or chanted, in a racist way. As a Jew, it angers me that it should be thought of any other way. There's always going to be an element of racism in this country, at least for the forseeable future, against any minority and Spurs fans cutting out singing yid army won't change that

Completely agree that we're heading to some kind of collective punishment though as can't see either side backing down and as you say, arresting thousands of people just isn't going to happen. But with UEFA handing out paltry fines to clubs whose chants ARE racist, I don't know what the FA can really do

 

[screen nayim]

I think you can at least say you're reclaiming the word from the anti-Semites who have directed this at Jews over the years. It doesn't follow with non-Jews though - who are in the vast majority at games. I've never been racially abused as a 'yid'. It is not mine term to redefine or reclaim. Do you think we'd even be having this conversation if we were known as an 'Asian club' and a mostly white crowd was chanting 'paki army' every week? And I don't think a few Asian fans in that instance saying they're fine with it would make things look any better. It would quickly end after the fines and home games behind closed doors.

Which bring things onto a seperate point - which is how far will this be taken? For years the carrot approach has been used. 'Please stop using it' we've been asked from the various authorities. Now the stick is starting to appear. We onto to threats that individuals could be prosecuted. I think this is unworkable. They're going to prosecute tens of thousands of people? So the next step will be collective punishment. Fines, home games behind close doors, points deduction? What then?

If Spurs got banned / points deduction or some other punishment for Yid Army chants, before Chelsea or West Ham got similar for their fans genuinely anti semitic antics then you'd have to question what the fcuk was going on in this country.

 

[Superhudd]

Why do Jews call there language Yiddish.. There are even papers called Yiddish Times. Yid is pretty much used in every daily life. I find the whole Yid debate baffling.

 

[DubaiSpur]

If Spurs got banned / points deduction or some other punishment for Yid Army chants, before Chelsea or West Ham got similar for their fans genuinely anti semitic antics then you'd have to question what the fcuk was going on in this country.

If Spurs are penalized for this while Chelsea's Belsen chanting goes unpunished, I am fairly certain we'll immediately lodge a complaint with both the Court of Arbitration for Sport and any UK judge we can get our hands on. Both those things are anathema to both FIFA and the gremlin-like FA, both of which are seemingly always terrified of their murkier dealings being exposed by non-football related authorities poking into events under their jurisdiction. And if either of them actually tries to take the fight to court, they'll quickly find out the hard way that a Premier League club is not like the little provincial teams they're used to steamrollering, with access to resources that makes it more than capable of hiring both the best lawyers and the best analysts to fight its corner.

It's a dangerous road for the FA to take, and that's why I think they'll just stick to requests instead. Too much to lose over something they probably see as too trivial to risk exposure in court for.

 

[THFC6061]

Why do Jews call there language Yiddish.. There are even papers called Yiddish Times. Yid is pretty much used in every daily life. I find the whole Yid debate baffling.

Yes, European (Ashkenazim) Jews generally use Yiddish as their everyday language, which is a mix of Russian, German, Hebrew and English.

By contrast, Spanish & Middle Eastern (Sephardi) Jews have a different everyday language called Ladino.

I wonder if they call themselves The Lads?

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Imagine if a club, say Aston Villa, had loads of Pakistani fans in the 80s and had been subject to loads of abuse during that time

This is where it falls down immediately, doesn't it? We didn't and we don't. It is just one of these bizarre football quirks that we were chosen as the 'Jewish club'. Ajax even more so. Hardly any Jewish fans. Racists at other clubs just decided to lob that as an insult at them.

Imagine if young Pakistani fans were attracted to the club because of that inclusiveness, a sign that it is OK and even positive to be a Pakistani football fan and a Villa fan. And those young and old fans take pleasure in that feeling of inclusiveness at the games, they feel safe

This is partly true in our case but at the same time... inclusive? Really? In this example, is the average Indian going to hotwheeling down to Villa Park? Because one of the unintended consequences of hitching ourselves to one section of the community is that you don't always to tend to attract the most tolerant sections of that community. You tend to start attracting nationalist types. See Celtic or Rangers as the extreme examples of this. See some of the reactions on Spurs forums when it was rumoured that we could have Arab buyers. Welcoming for one section of the community who were the victims of racism at football? Yes. Inclusive... No.

Meanwhile senior elder Pakistani figures in the community are not keen on the chanting and don't think it helps their cause at all

And the Pakistani fans of other clubs not so keen on hearing 'Paki this' and 'Paki that' being batted back and forth in every game involving Aston Villa? So much so that they don't take their children to this fixture anymore? Because these are the sort of people who have been complaining to Kick it Out for years and years and those are sort of stories they give.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

If Spurs got banned / points deduction or some other punishment for Yid Army chants, before Chelsea or West Ham got similar for their fans genuinely anti semitic antics then you'd have to question what the fcuk was going on in this country.

The issue here is that it is invariably individual lone idiots at Chelsea or West Ham shouting anti-semetic abuse. They still don't nearly enough get pulled out of the crowd and arrested enough, especially compared with other racism (Baddiel makes this point well), but we're not talking here about large sections of the stadium engaging in anti-Semitic chants. This is why even in Baddiel's video, he can only find the example of the far-right scum getting off a train and chanting 'Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz'. We don't even know if these are real matchgoing supporters - you have to seriously doubt it. Meanwhile, what do they hear every week at Spurs? Loud 'yid' related chants. And if the aim is stop *all* such chanting, it is no surprise that they've started to target us.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

If Spurs are penalized for this while Chelsea's Belsen chanting goes unpunished, I am fairly certain we'll immediately lodge a complaint with both the Court of Arbitration for Sport and any UK judge we can get our hands on.

We'd have to come up with evidence of the chants at Chelsea and West Ham.... cue tumbleweed.... it is invariably lone idiots and both clubs can argue they pull the odd one and are therefore trying to deal with them. We have no comparable argument beyond 'it is done in a positive way'. Once that is dismissed, we've got problems because these chants are loud and clear every single week.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

If Spurs are penalized for this while Chelsea's Belsen chanting goes unpunished, I am fairly certain we'll immediately lodge a complaint with both the Court of Arbitration for Sport and any UK judge we can get our hands on. Both those things are anathema to both FIFA and the gremlin-like FA, both of which are seemingly always terrified of their murkier dealings being exposed by non-football related authorities poking into events under their jurisdiction. And if either of them actually tries to take the fight to court, they'll quickly find out the hard way that a Premier League club is not like the little provincial teams they're used to steamrollering, with access to resources that makes it more than capable of hiring both the best lawyers and the best analysts to fight its corner.

It's a dangerous road for the FA to take, and that's why I think they'll just stick to requests instead. Too much to lose over something they probably see as too trivial to risk exposure in court for.

I have never understood how they have a go at us for chanting the word yid but the stuff chelsea chants does not even get a mention. I mean even when the press talk about leeds and man u they mention that some leeds fans sing "songs".

Personally i blame a media love in for chelsea.

 

[THFC]

The issue here is that it is invariably individual lone idiots at Chelsea or West Ham shouting anti-semetic abuse. They still don't nearly enough get pulled out of the crowd and arrested enough, especially compared with other racism (Baddiel makes this point well), but we're not talking here about large sections of the stadium engaging in anti-Semitic chants. This is why even in Baddiel's video, he can only find the example of the far-right scum getting off a train and chanting 'Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz'. We don't even know if these are real matchgoing supporters - you have to seriously doubt it. Meanwhile, what do they hear every week at Spurs? Loud 'yid' related chants. And if the aim is stop *all* such chanting, it is no surprise that they've started to target us.

I think you can at least say there is a semantic change when talking about the word 'yid'. The way it is being used at spurs? There is no specific intent from Spurs fans to break any rules or law.

 

[treepits]

The issue here is that it is invariably individual lone idiots at Chelsea or West Ham shouting anti-semetic abuse. They still don't nearly enough get pulled out of the crowd and arrested enough, especially compared with other racism (Baddiel makes this point well), but we're not talking here about large sections of the stadium engaging in anti-Semitic chants. This is why even in Baddiel's video, he can only find the example of the far-right scum getting off a train and chanting 'Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz'. We don't even know if these are real matchgoing supporters - you have to seriously doubt it. Meanwhile, what do they hear every week at Spurs? Loud 'yid' related chants. And if the aim is stop *all* such chanting, it is no surprise that they've started to target us.

Not true at all. I probably wouldn't hear 'individual lone idiots' if they were hissing in the next room, let alone in a stadium filled with 30-odd thousand people but it can be pretty loud on match days against Chelsea, West Ham, Leeds etc when you're sitting next to the away fans. Just because they drown it out on the telly, doesn't mean it's not happening

Baddiel could only find examples of potentially non-matchgoers chanting anti-semitic abuse because it fitted his argument

 

[Danners9]

We'd have to come up with evidence of the chants at Chelsea and West Ham.... cue tumbleweed.... it is invariably lone idiots and both clubs can argue they pull the odd one and are therefore trying to deal with them. We have no comparable argument beyond 'it is done in a positive way'. Once that is dismissed, we've got problems because these chants are loud and clear every single week.

If you could prove that not singing it would stop the abuse directed at Spurs from others then I think a lot would be in favour of letting the chant go.

As they can't, or in reality it simply won't stop, then there will forever be a stalemate. Even a trial, to see if it makes any difference. My feelings are that it won't, but it would give Spurs the high moral ground.

 

[the fox in the box]

is anyone going to the game on saturday?

maybe it would make a good point of the whole situation of people could video the inevitable Chelsea chants and we can then all start sharing them all over social media and put them in the hands of SSN, Baddiel, the press and see what is said about it then?

 

[markysimmo]

is anyone going to the game on saturday?

maybe it would make a good point of the whole situation of people could video the inevitable Chelsea chants and we can then all start sharing them all over social media and put them in the hands of SSN, Baddiel, the press and see what is said about it then?

good idea, i bet it would be ignored though, you just know all the chelsea old fav chants will be out in force

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Not true at all. I probably wouldn't hear 'individual lone idiots' if they were hissing in the next room, let alone in a stadium filled with 30-odd thousand people but it can be pretty loud on match days against Chelsea, West Ham, Leeds etc when you're sitting next to the away fans. Just because they drown it out on the telly, doesn't mean it's not happening

Baddiel could only find examples of potentially non-matchgoers chanting anti-semitic abuse because it fitted his argument

Then why has is there so little evidence of it over recent years? Particularly from the media who you would think would relish such stories? About the worst we've had recently is West Ham fans at the Lane last season after the events in Lazio. 'Viva Lazio' was loud and clear to me, along with other more abusive stuff which only came from a minority. I haven't heard mass anti-Semitic chants for over a decade now. Idiots shouting stuff into the away end? Loads. And you can easily hear it at somewhere like West Ham where they are right next to you. But things have actually moved on and anti-Semitism is generally aborred by the average supporter, even at West Ham and Chelsea. As for the hissing, I've heard this point made several times but even that West Ham game last season, they were clearly shouting 'sssh' when we'd gone quiet for a period. Not easy to distinguish between the two but the fact that were doing this when we went quiet suggests the main thrust was 'sssh' and not 'hiss'. If not, then pretty much every club that comes to WHL should be suspected of making 'hissing' noises and why would, for example, Man Utd fans engage in anti-Semitism against us? The worst of it is always from Chelsea, West Ham and Arsenal but on a mass scale? Not for a long time now. Meanwhile, we are chanting 'yid' in some form or another, every single week.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

If you could prove that not singing it would stop the abuse directed at Spurs from others then I think a lot would be in favour of letting the chant go.

As they can't, or in reality it simply won't stop, then there will forever be a stalemate. Even a trial, to see if it makes any difference. My feelings are that it won't, but it would give Spurs the high moral ground.

But what is meant by abuse here? Again, there are loads of fans of other clubs who use 'yid' in a abusive way but at the same time are not looking to be anti-Semitic in the slightest. In fact, they'd be appalled if they realised the full connotations. When they say 'yid' they mean 'Spurs. Now where is the line drawn here? They're not intending to be anti-Semitic when they use 'yid', we're not intending to be anti-Semitic when we use 'yid'. In the middle of this are Jewish fans of other clubs who just would like to go to a football game and not have their children hear a racial epithet bandied about (nearly always by non-Jews) like it is just a bit of banter. A racial epithet they've probably been abused with in the past. The same for the spillover into everyday life. It is of course used away from WHL. This seems reasonable to me. As is the view that it won't work to say that we can use it and others can't.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

"'Asian club' chanting 'paki, paki, paki' at our heroes?"
at the time Paki was offensive but common place - if we took this up in the 70's in the same way we did YIDs (at the time they would have been comparablly offensive, going to the Paki shop was even ok in the 80's) I think we would be in a safe place

No problem with chanting 'Paki Army' every week or 'paki, paki, paki' at an Asian player, for example? We'd already have had the points deducted and games behind closed doors by now and it would have long since stopped!