Europa League 2012-13 - QF: Basel (SUI)

[The Moonlit Knight]

the League Cup is not quite a European cup competition is it? Keane was nearing the end of his career and offered a last chance shot at being in the Champions League and potentially in for the Premier League title (i believe Liverpool had finished 2nd the season prior?) Berbatov was wanted by United, the 2nd biggest club in the world

let's not forget either we had Ramos in charge at the time and things weren't looking good going in to the following season after finishing the league just inside the top 10(?) we certainly looked a world away from being involved in the hunt for the CL places again - so although it's a fair(ish) point you make about them both leaving - it's hardly a comparable situation to what we could possibly find ourselves in next season ie just missing out on CL football but winning a European cup, i believe that is the type of situation which players would be happy to stick around in as it shows not only that we are close on the league front but we also have a winning mentality in Europe - and that there is potential going in to the next couple of seasons.



take at look at the big name players which A.Madrid have managed to hold on to without CL football since they won their Europa Leagues as an example of a similar set of circumstances

The Europa League, FA Cup and League Cup won't satisfy ambitious players.

People in the UK are fixated with cups. Domestic cups have never meant much for most of the continental clubs and players. The FA Cup used to be special, even over here. Now no one over here cares about it either. I would think over here the Europa League would mean even more than it does to English clubs, but it doesn't. It's all about Champion's League.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

Ask Swansea fans if they thought winning the League was a silly distraction in their battle for midtable.

Do you know, year by year, the League Cup (Is it the Carling or has it changed again?) becomes ever more devalued, in a few years it will reach the stage when big clubs actually consider it an embarrassing trophy to take seriously in anyway. A Swansea-Bradford final will be the standard level of the finals of the future. It'll be disbanded within a decade.

It's called progress. Things change. If you don't adapt you go nowhere other than backwards.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Agree - CL football attracts players and helps retain your current lot....and thats even before getting on to the massive financial upside from getting into the CL compared to winning the Europa

Hope we rest some players on THurs and then play our best 11 vs Everton and Basel away, given there's a free weekend after the away leg

The problem is if you are successful in the junior trophies, then your team is highlighted. Good? Only if you also graduate to the big stage at the same time. Otherwise all you have done is put your manager and players in the shop window for those clubs who are on the big stage. For long term success its actually better to slip under the radar until you graduate to the big league, otherwise all that happens is your players and managers get poached.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

[/B]

So I guess you be feeling pretty down if we win the Europa then?
Would you bother watching the final, or would you just be seething that we should have conserved our energy to try and win the fourth placed trophy?

I'd be delighted if we win the Europa League, but at the same time it will be tinged with sadness if we win it and don't qualify for the Champion's League because if we win the Europa League and fail to qualify for the big stage, then the Europa League final is likely to be the last Spurs game for some of our better players and therefore weakens our chance of truly being competitive the following season and beyond.

 

[Spursalot]

“I am happy, very happy in this unique moment but I am especially so for the team. I have to thank GHod that Porto were able to be in such a position. Being the top goalscorer, scoring the most goals, that is a separate issue - what really matters is that the team wins. [The secret] is the strong desire shown by everyone,” he was quoted.


“The group is very united, eager and hungry, and we have shown that in every competition. We are excited, the team dreamed of this at the start to this season,” the forward concluded.


Ah no, i guess top players don't care about the Europa League. Falcao is pretty brick isn't he?

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Ask Swansea fans if they thought winning the League was a silly distraction in their battle for midtable.

It's a valid point, but we aren't Swansea. Or maybe that's just my perception and we really are a mid-table club that should be satisfied with the odd junior trophy every few seasons rather than competing on the big stage year in, year out. GHod knows that with the size of our stadium it is a fabulous achievement to be top six.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

“I am happy, very happy in this unique moment but I am especially so for the team. I have to thank GHod that Porto were able to be in such a position. Being the top goalscorer, scoring the most goals, that is a separate issue - what really matters is that the team wins. [The secret] is the strong desire shown by everyone,” he was quoted.


“The group is very united, eager and hungry, and we have shown that in every competition. We are excited, the team dreamed of this at the start to this season,” the forward concluded.


Ah no, i guess top players don't care about the Europa League. Falcao is pretty brick isn't he?

You are going into specifics to debate against a generalisation. I can't debate when the rules change that much. Especially considering the PR that players will speak publically is often chest thumping that they don't really believe in. I wonder what Falcao would prefer this year, a Europa League title or a £250K a week move to Barca? I wonder what his choice would be, if he was given that choice!

 

[Spursalot]

You are going into specifics to debate against a generalisation. I can't debate when the rules change that much. Especially considering the PR that players will speak publically is often chest thumping that they don't really believe in. I wonder what Falcao would prefer this year, a Europa League title or a £250K a week move to Barca? I wonder what his choice would be, if he was given that choice!

The rules haven't changed.


The players want to win these competitions, they want to be in these competitions.


Comparing a Europa League title or a 250k move to Barca is hilarious. It's like comparing an apple with a chair.


This is all about the image of the Europa in England, it is treated as a second rate competition. In the rest of Europe it's not.

 

[Libero]

Do you know, year by year, the League Cup (Is it the Carling or has it changed again?) becomes ever more devalued, in a few years it will reach the stage when big clubs actually consider it an embarrassing trophy to take seriously in anyway. A Swansea-Bradford final will be the standard level of the finals of the future. It'll be disbanded within a decade.

It's called progress. Things change. If you don't adapt you go nowhere other than backwards.

Its actually undergone a renaissance of sorts recently actually. I think that given the Oil money that has come into the game, Teams like Arsenal, Tottenham, Liverpool and even Chelsea strive to win it. Arsenal played a full strength side against us in 2010-2011 and we played a weakened side expecting them to do the same. chelsea field pretty strong sides all the way through. Its now teams who cannot afford to get caught up in a cup run because they are so fixated in staying in the top flight who field weakened sides.

Admitedly the last two finals haven't set the world alight but look at the finals before that? Arsenal v Birmingham City, Man U v Aston Villa, Spurs v Man U, Spurs v Chelsea, Arsenal v Chelsea, Man U v Wigan, Liverpool v Chelsea, Middlesbrough v Bolton and Liverpool v Man U.

Look at how many of those finals are top notch fixtures? And I would be willing to bet that the quality of the final in those games have been better generally than the FA Cup final.

Things change and your right in that progress can force that change. But I tell you now, progress for all the big clubs is that they want to win everything and that includes the League cup. It might not be as a high a priority as the league but trust me, if you offered Fergie the League Cup as his only trophy he would be going all out for it

 

[jimmyb]

The Europa League, FA Cup and League Cup won't satisfy ambitious players.

People in the UK are fixated with cups. Domestic cups have never meant much for most of the continental clubs and players. The FA Cup used to be special, even over here. Now no one over here cares about it either. I would think over here the Europa League would mean even more than it does to English clubs, but it doesn't. It's all about Champion's League.

This is demonstrably untrue.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

The rules haven't changed.


The players want to win these competitions, they want to be in these competitions.


Comparing a Europa League title or a 250k move to Barca is hilarious. It's like comparing an apple with a chair.


This is all about the image of the Europa in England, it is treated as a second rate competition. In the rest of Europe it's not.

OK, I will make this as clear as I can.

Players want to win trophies. If a player was given the choice at their current club of winning a trophy or not winning a trophy, it's a no brainer that the player will always choose a trophy.

If a player is given the choice of being at a club in a smaller league, or a mid-table club at a bigger league, where they can win a trophy but not compete for the bigger prizes of a major league title or the Champion's League vs playing for a genuine contender of a major league? I think most, not all, players would rather play for a side competing for league titles in a major league or the Champion's League than be content winning titles in Holland, or League Cups in England. Beyond that in some cases players would rather just be playing in a major league at any club rather than competing for titles in a smaller country.

The ideal scenario for any player is to win the smaller trophies first as it gives them silverware for their CV and also puts them in the shop window. A win win for the player, but a win lose for the club he plays for. This is footballing life for the most part and is pretty indisputable.

 

[jimmyb]

The problem is if you are successful in the junior trophies, then your team is highlighted. Good? Only if you also graduate to the big stage at the same time. Otherwise all you have done is put your manager and players in the shop window for those clubs who are on the big stage. For long term success its actually better to slip under the radar until you graduate to the big league, otherwise all that happens is your players and managers get poached.

fudge it. Let's not bother to win anything, then. Ever.

That would suit you, right?

Alternatively, you could just be talking gonads.

 

[billyiddo]

The Europa League, FA Cup and League Cup won't satisfy ambitious players.

People in the UK are fixated with cups. Domestic cups have never meant much for most of the continental clubs and players. The FA Cup used to be special, even over here. Now no one over here cares about it either. I would think over here the Europa League would mean even more than it does to English clubs, but it doesn't. It's all about Champion's League.

where is 'over here', mate?

 

[Spursalot]

fudge it. Let's not bother to win anything, then. Ever.

That would suit you, right?

Alternatively, you could just be talking gonads.

Can't see anything beyond this really.

 

[markysimmo]

=D>

Some people just get it and some don't.

All trophies are equal but some trophies are more equal than others.

I've got this friend called Jeremy. He won the Pontins snooker championship in the 2nd week of June in 1989, and he's convinced that it is just as worthwhile as the Snooker World Championship itself.

"A piece of silverware is a piece of silverware!" He always says as he holds up his 2 inch Aluminium trophy.

There's no reasoning with him.

As previous WUMs, idiots leave the board or are told to leave the board, new ones appear..

You sir have potential to be the next afan

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

This is demonstrably untrue.

In what sense? In Holland we've never cared much about the KNVB. Sure smaller clubs cared about it if they won because it was the best they could aim for realistically. No one over here really cares much about the Europa League either. It would be a nice day if Ajax made the final for sure, but I know I am not alone when I say that we'd rather see Ajax in the Champion's League for part of the season than see us in the Europa League, and win it, for the whole of the season. The owners would agree too!

 

[jimmyb]

I'd be delighted if we win the Europa League, but at the same time it will be tinged with sadness if we win it and don't qualify for the Champion's League because if we win the Europa League and fail to qualify for the big stage, then the Europa League final is likely to be the last Spurs game for some of our better players and therefore weakens our chance of truly being competitive the following season and beyond.

No, it isn't.

Besides, why should winning the Europa League make it any less likely that we will finish in the to 4?

It's defeatist, small time thinking.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

where is 'over here', mate?

Holland

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

fudge it. Let's not bother to win anything, then. Ever.

That would suit you, right?

Alternatively, you could just be talking gonads.

Alternatively, I could not be talking gonads. Winning the League Cup under Ramos assisted in setting us back two seasons. We were lucky it didn't end up more.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

No, it isn't.

Besides, why should winning the Europa League make it any less likely that we will finish in the to 4?

It's defeatist, small time thinking.

I am not arguing against whether we should try and win it. You understand that right?