ENIC

[Muttley]

Agreed. I think the succession planning would have happened if we trusted Poch, because he seemed to have a really great eye for when a given player had peaked, and when the right time to move them on would be. In his ideal world, we probably move out a couple of these players each season, sign replacements that would have started from a higher level than the ones we signed at the start of his reign, and importantly welcomed them into a squad where the culture and style was well established.

As it was, we tried to keep that squad together as long as we could, right the way through Jose arguing he could get a tune out of them that Poch couldn’t (likely from the club / Levy being scarred from being forced to lose Modric, Bale, Carrick, Berbatov). The idea being that we had a great squad, and just needed to keep them for a change. Of course it wasn’t just the quality of the players, it was a culture and a system that meant that levelled up. And when it came time to replace them all, major surgery was required, inevitably we didn’t spend on top class proven replacements and so we began a cycle again, only this time having destroyed the culture that made us what we were.

I always use the 2017 summer and 2018 Jan windows as what typified Spurs at that time.

We sold Walker, Wimmer, Bentaleb, Njie, Fazio, Jansen - one Spurs legend (for me) and a kid in Bentaleb who had talent but seemed to have attitude issues. I couldn't blame Poch for moving him on. The other 4 players moving on were for the reason we recruited badly in the first place. However we gained something like £80-100m in recouped money.

We bought Sanchez, Moura, Aurier, Llorente, Foyth, Gazzaniga for slightly more than we recouped. It was just shocking recruitment. Our scouts thought Sanchez was going to be a high end centre half to replace Toby or Jan eventually. In Aurier and Moura we went into the £25m for a 25 year old model. When is that ever going to work? Moura's career stats at Spurs were incredibly poor. We should have consolidated down to Trips and KWP, but then had to watch the hapless Aurier for many seasons. We bought average and we got average results.

So we ultimately sold 6 and bought 6. We should have sold 6 and bought 2 elite signings with academy promotion. That is how you improve.

We went from 86 league points to 77 and then down to 71 and then again down to 59. A 27 point decline in the league in 3 seasons. Absolutely shocking football operations management from the club.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I always use the 2017 summer and 2018 Jan windows as what typified Spurs at that time.

We sold Walker, Wimmer, Bentaleb, Njie, Fazio, Jansen - one Spurs legend (for me) and a kid in Bentaleb who had talent but seemed to have attitude issues. I couldn't blame Poch for moving him on. The other 4 players moving on were for the reason we recruited badly in the first place. However we gained something like £80-100m in recouped money.

We bought Sanchez, Moura, Aurier, Llorente, Foyth, Gazzaniga for slightly more than we recouped. It was just shocking recruitment. Our scouts thought Sanchez was going to be a high end centre half to replace Toby or Jan eventually. In Aurier and Moura we went into the £25m for a 25 year old model. When is that ever going to work? Moura's career stats at Spurs were incredibly poor. We should have consolidated down to Trips and KWP, but then had to watch the hapless Aurier for many seasons. We bought average and we got average results.

So we ultimately sold 6 and bought 6. We should have sold 6 and bought 2 elite signings with academy promotion. That is how you improve.

We went from 86 league points to 77 and then down to 71 and then again down to 59. A 27 point decline in the league in 3 seasons. Absolutely shocking football operations management from the club.

Yeah, I think Walker to Trippier was almost the ideal succession planning in action. We even saw it at the end of the previous season where Trippier started the NLD, Walker was dropped, and we still monstered them.

I have sympathy for the Sanchez deal too. I think in a high line in the right system he could have been great. Too much of his time with us was under Jose and I don’t think he’s his style of player.

Overall though I agree, Aurier never felt like a Poch player, Moura never seemed fully trusted by him. It just seemed like there came a point where we stopped trusting Poch. The Walker deal was perfect for me - sold for maximum value, was about to become a risk to the culture, has a ready made replacement ready to go. We should have done similar with Toby, with Eriksen, with Dele, with Moussa.

 

[Muttley]

Yeah, I think Walker to Trippier was almost the ideal succession planning in action. We even saw it at the end of the previous season where Trippier started the NLD, Walker was dropped, and we still monstered them.

I have sympathy for the Sanchez deal too. I think in a high line in the right system he could have been great. Too much of his time with us was under Jose and I don’t think he’s his style of player.

Overall though I agree, Aurier never felt like a Poch player, Moura never seemed fully trusted by him. It just seemed like there came a point where we stopped trusting Poch. The Walker deal was perfect for me - sold for maximum value, was about to become a risk to the culture, has a ready made replacement ready to go. We should have done similar with Toby, with Eriksen, with Dele, with Moussa.

Yeah, I don't blame Poch though. Our recruitment team from the chairman down couldn't close a door in that period. We were linked with the young De Ligt and De Jong as well as Bruno. We were linked with Dybala as well as other key players. The message always seemed to be that we had the money but couldn't get the deals over the line. In reality, I'm not sure we had the right platform for some of these players. We definitely didn't have the negotiation skills to attract them. It must have been a frustrating time for Poch who couldn't get the players at the level he had.

I've always been on the fence with Sanchez. I absolutely applauded Levy and the club for spending £42m on a player. I don wonder whether the manager and recruitment team felt he woud become elite though. It's not as if he was bad though. He had one great season with Vertonghen whilst Toby was injured. Just showed what a leader Jan was. He could get the guys either side of him as LCB 10-20% better than they were when he wasn't there. It was also Davies best spell in the side. Ledders did that with Dawson as well a few years prior.

 

[Baleforce]

Yeah, I don't blame Poch though. Our recruitment team from the chairman down couldn't close a door in that period. We were linked with the young De Ligt and De Jong as well as Bruno. We were linked with Dybala as well as other key players. The message always seemed to be that we had the money but couldn't get the deals over the line. In reality, I'm not sure we had the right platform for some of these players. We definitely didn't have the negotiation skills to attract them. It must have been a frustrating time for Poch who couldn't get the players at the level he had.

I've always been on the fence with Sanchez. I absolutely applauded Levy and the club for spending £42m on a player. I don wonder whether the manager and recruitment team felt he woud become elite though. It's not as if he was bad though. He had one great season with Vertonghen whilst Toby was injured. Just showed what a leader Jan was. He could get the guys either side of him as LCB 10-20% better than they were when he wasn't there. It was also Davies best spell in the side. Ledders did that with Dawson as well a few years prior.

but those examples turned out not to be that level either

 

[Baleforce]

Yeah, I think Walker to Trippier was almost the ideal succession planning in action. We even saw it at the end of the previous season where Trippier started the NLD, Walker was dropped, and we still monstered them.

I have sympathy for the Sanchez deal too. I think in a high line in the right system he could have been great. Too much of his time with us was under Jose and I don’t think he’s his style of player.

Overall though I agree, Aurier never felt like a Poch player, Moura never seemed fully trusted by him. It just seemed like there came a point where we stopped trusting Poch. The Walker deal was perfect for me - sold for maximum value, was about to become a risk to the culture, has a ready made replacement ready to go. We should have done similar with Toby, with Eriksen, with Dele, with Moussa.

Walker had become a liability, he could have trademarked the word brainfart, this forum was done with him and all for getting rid.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Walker had become a liability, he could have trademarked the word brainfart, this forum was done with him and all for getting rid.

A player also given his trajectory we wouldnt be able to keep, Poch was playing for Trips to be his successor and we tried to move on

I find these intricate efforts to pick every moment apart ridiculous.

 

[Muttley]

but those examples turned out not to be that level either

It's a great point.

I think the Dutch Ajax pair are interesting. De Ligt has played and won league titles at Juve and BM but they've moved him on. He also formed part of the defence that got CL last season with Utd. De Jong has won several titles with Barca. I would say that's a high level for both, but you also see the injury records. There's no doubt Dybala and Bruno would have been amazing for us.

I actually think all 4 would have been really good for us. I've definitely missed some others at well based on my memory being poor.

Wasn't Moutinho another that fans mention a lot?

 

[Muttley]

A player also given his trajectory we wouldnt be able to keep, Poch was playing for Trips to be his successor and we tried to move on

I find these intricate efforts to pick every moment apart ridiculous.

Yeah, I remember Eriksen making similar comments. Like Modric before, he was never going to be a Spurs lifer. Nobody begrudged Harry moving either.

Sometimes you just need to move on. It's about the succession planning obviously.

 

[Baleforce]

It's a great point.

I think the Dutch Ajax pair are interesting. De Ligt has played and won league titles at Juve and BM but they've moved him on. He also formed part of the defence that got CL last season with Utd. De Jong has won several titles with Barca. I would say that's a high level for both, but you also see the injury records. There's no doubt Dybala and Bruno would have been amazing for us.

I actually think all 4 would have been really good for us. I've definitely missed some others at well based on my memory being poor.

Wasn't Moutinho another that fans mention a lot?

I have a lot of doubt on those two.

Moutinho we were screwed out of by the seller, wasn't an issue on our side iirc.

 

[Baleforce]

Yeah, I remember Eriksen making similar comments. Like Modric before, he was never going to be a Spurs lifer. Nobody begrudged Harry moving either.

Sometimes you just need to move on. It's about the succession planning obviously.

Look at those 3 players though, there hasn't been a CM in the entire game even half as good as Modric since he left, there hasn't been an MF anywhere near as good as Eriksen in the PL since he left, and there has never been, before or after, a PL forward as good as Harry Kane.

That is 3 players it was impossible to have a succession plan for.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Look at those 3 players though, there hasn't been a CM in the entire game even half as good as Modric since he left, there hasn't been an MF anywhere near as good as Eriksen in the PL since he left, and there has never been, before or after, a PL forward as good as Harry Kane.

That is 3 players it was impossible to have a succession plan for.

I think this underweights the value of a functioning culture and system that allows players to reach their peak level. We sign Fernandes in a settled side, rather than have to watch him play for a basket case United all these years, and I’m sure we see a better player.

I think we absolutely could have succession planned better. We would have needed to be smart, not do it all at once, but it was possible to do far better than we did.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Walker had become a liability, he could have trademarked the word brainfart, this forum was done with him and all for getting rid.

I’m not sure I’d go as far as liability but I think it just reinforces the point. We were able to get maximum value for a player who was starting to get less consistent in his performances with us, who would start to become a risk to the culture if we forced him to stay, and where we had a successor primed and ready who didn’t represent much of a drop off at all in quality.

It was perfectly done. I think it was accepting our place in the food chain too. Being strategic and taking ownership of a situation. Knowing we couldn’t keep everyone, knowing we needed to keep evolving, but also knowing that culture and unity was important to what we had built. Unfortunately we get to a place later on where Eriksen is just done with us, we get nothing for Dele, Rose is held on to so long to the point that he doesn’t even make the squad in his final year, and the whole culture that levelled up everyone’s game just dissipates. Poch always said we just needed to be smarter than the other teams that had more money, and that was the way.

I really think if we trusted him more we’d be in a much better position right now.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Yeah, I don't blame Poch though. Our recruitment team from the chairman down couldn't close a door in that period. We were linked with the young De Ligt and De Jong as well as Bruno. We were linked with Dybala as well as other key players. The message always seemed to be that we had the money but couldn't get the deals over the line. In reality, I'm not sure we had the right platform for some of these players. We definitely didn't have the negotiation skills to attract them. It must have been a frustrating time for Poch who couldn't get the players at the level he had.

I've always been on the fence with Sanchez. I absolutely applauded Levy and the club for spending £42m on a player. I don wonder whether the manager and recruitment team felt he woud become elite though. It's not as if he was bad though. He had one great season with Vertonghen whilst Toby was injured. Just showed what a leader Jan was. He could get the guys either side of him as LCB 10-20% better than they were when he wasn't there. It was also Davies best spell in the side. Ledders did that with Dawson as well a few years prior.

The Dybala image rights nonsense was a big factor in my waning support for Levy continuing as Chairman. It seemed that all too often we’d get to deadline day praying that we could get over these complications that made the deals oh so difficult.

 

[Baleforce]

The Dybala image rights nonsense was a big factor in my waning support for Levy continuing as Chairman. It seemed that all too often we’d get to deadline day praying that we could get over these complications that made the deals oh so difficult.

I'm glad we kept ourselves above flimflam like that.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

The Dybala image rights nonsense was a big factor in my waning support for Levy continuing as Chairman. It seemed that all too often we’d get to deadline day praying that we could get over these complications that made the deals oh so difficult.

Nonsense that was confirmed by United not wanting to touch him for the same reason.

They approached 3 clubs in the UK for it and all of them walked.

 

[robp135]

The issue in the Pochettino era was that we never really commited to a squad building philosophy.

We somewhat stumbled upon a top tier coach and a top tier group of players. The ideal in that scenario is that you the add 1/2 top tier players to that squad each season. That was not possible due to the stadium build.

The alternative should have been to invest in the trully elite young talent. Players like Saliba, Bellingham, Haaland is who we should have been going after and been a more appealing option at that time than club who were at or below us.

Then in time once the stadium is built and the revenues are up you build on that. Keep those players long term and add the 1/2 elite players.

Issue one sat in the middle. We signed the B tier 23–26 year olds that the elite clubs did not want along with the B tier youth prospects.

 

[Muttley]

The issue in the Pochettino era was that we never really commited to a squad building philosophy.

We somewhat stumbled upon a top tier coach and a top tier group of players. The ideal in that scenario is that you the add 1/2 top tier players to that squad each season. That was not possible due to the stadium build.

The alternative should have been to invest in the trully elite young talent. Players like Saliba, Bellingham, Haaland is who we should have been going after and been a more appealing option at that time than club who were at or below us.

Then in time once the stadium is built and the revenues are up you build on that. Keep those players long term and add the 1/2 elite players.

Issue one sat in the middle. We signed the B tier 23–26 year olds that the elite clubs did not want along with the B tier youth prospects.

Not so different from what we should do now right? We've done the major overhaul and 1 or 2 elite purchases per year sounds great to me.

I have my doubts whether we will ever achieve the quality over quantity thing at Spurs. It just seems to be the way we roll sadly.

 

[robp135]

Not so different from what we should do now right? We've done the major overhaul and 1 or 2 elite purchases per year sounds great to me.

I have my doubts whether we will ever achieve the quality over quantity thing at Spurs. It just seems to be the way we roll sadly.

This Summers strategy was the correct one. Moving forward we should be signing 1-2 elite players in positions of need along with some young players who are either ready to compete for minutes or get loaned.

 

[robp135]

I’m not sure I’d go as far as liability but I think it just reinforces the point. We were able to get maximum value for a player who was starting to get less consistent in his performances with us, who would start to become a risk to the culture if we forced him to stay, and where we had a successor primed and ready who didn’t represent much of a drop off at all in quality.

It was perfectly done. I think it was accepting our place in the food chain too. Being strategic and taking ownership of a situation. Knowing we couldn’t keep everyone, knowing we needed to keep evolving, but also knowing that culture and unity was important to what we had built. Unfortunately we get to a place later on where Eriksen is just done with us, we get nothing for Dele, Rose is held on to so long to the point that he doesn’t even make the squad in his final year, and the whole culture that levelled up everyone’s game just dissipates. Poch always said we just needed to be smarter than the other teams that had more money, and that was the way.

I really think if we trusted him more we’d be in a much better position right now.

Had we sold Dier for £50M in 2027, Rose for £50M in 2018 and Dele for £80M in 2019 what would the reaction of the fan base been?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Hindsight Hotspurs FC