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ENIC

In no way an influence on my decision, purely a view/theory but I think there are a number of reasons why the atmosphere seems "lesser" at the new stadium.

I think they fudged up the idea of the wall, they should have mapped it out for fans that want to create a din so they could move over from the old stadium to there (if they wish). They didn't do that and its also a mix of different ticket types which means a different dynamic between fans.

I think the music before hand is far too loud and suck the energy out the fans, I really think its a killer to the atmosphere not a plus

I think the stuff going on in and around the concourses has a distracting impact on the overall atmosphere, I was there one week and the drummer was belting out the same thing for 30 mins, by the time I got into the stand my head was cooked from it, was too much.

That said, I love the new stadium for what its, but its different, where as the old stadium was more like "get in see the game, get it off your chest for 90 mins, leave" the new stadium is the complete opposite.

I think fans have changed not the stadium

I've been in WHL when we were brick and it felt that the fudging stadium was going to fall down from the noise and banging

I've been in the new one when we are winning and the atmosphere is brick

And it's not tourist, or new season ticket holders, like a lot of society, entitlement, years of media pushing a narrative, a view that the team is here to entertain and if they don't we can be as brick/stupid/boo/whatever as much as we want. A view that my club isn't good enough unless I can lord over other fans with "accomplishments", when the fudge did how much you care/support you club become directly related to if we won a trophy last year?

Watched the highlights of Leeds playing this week (and yes, fudge them), but the way the crowd was behind that team is something all top 6 sides have lost (unless blowing away opposition or on great run)
 
I think fans have changed not the stadium

I've been in WHL when we were brick and it felt that the fudging stadium was going to fall down from the noise and banging

I've been in the new one when we are winning and the atmosphere is brick

And it's not tourist, or new season ticket holders, like a lot of society, entitlement, years of media pushing a narrative, a view that the team is here to entertain and if they don't we can be as brick/stupid/boo/whatever as much as we want. A view that my club isn't good enough unless I can lord over other fans with "accomplishments", when the fudge did how much you care/support you club become directly related to if we won a trophy last year?

Watched the highlights of Leeds playing this week (and yes, fudge them), but the way the crowd was behind that team is something all top 6 sides have lost (unless blowing away opposition or on great run)
I don't disagree, I know the old WHL could be dead, especially Sat morning games, could hear a pin drop.

I just honestly think there are elements at play at the new gaff that almost feels comfortable and its easy to get drawn into that comfort. And thats not a super criticism because I like the luxuries myself, it just is what it is.
 
We look back kindly on old WHL because we remember the highs and forget the many, many quiet meh games.

In the new WHL the club are refusing to engage with fan groups that want to start a singing section, see Tweet below.

I'm watching Lille v SGR right now and Lille fans have a separate podium with 2 nutters standing on it facing away from the game, directing the fans, shouting into microphones, calling out goalscorers etc.

Read this
 
We look back kindly on old WHL because we remember the highs and forget the many, many quiet meh games.

In the new WHL the club are refusing to engage with fan groups that want to start a singing section, see Tweet below.

I'm watching Lille v SGR right now and Lille fans have a separate podium with 2 nutters standing on it facing away from the game, directing the fans, shouting into microphones, calling out goalscorers etc.

Read this

Like I said mate, go watch some Championship teams highlights, then watch City/Pool/us, one set of fans has a far smaller set of expectations and the atmosphere reflects it.
 
We look back kindly on old WHL because we remember the highs and forget the many, many quiet meh games.

In the new WHL the club are refusing to engage with fan groups that want to start a singing section, see Tweet below.

I'm watching Lille v SGR right now and Lille fans have a separate podium with 2 nutters standing on it facing away from the game, directing the fans, shouting into microphones, calling out goalscorers etc.

Read this
Like Germany
It’s different and not for everyone
 
We didn't rebuild after Poch, we delayed and delayed because we thought the squad was good enough. You have made this very argument against the club many times over those years yourself. We didn't face up to the reality until we brought in Paratichi, Lange has then continued on from where he left off.
We didn’t finish a rebuild under Poch, didn’t even get half way through one but we sure as hell started one (and then cut it short by sacking him a short way into that season). Yes we delayed it for far too long but it finally got started in summer 2019.
 
We didn’t finish a rebuild under Poch, didn’t even get half way through one but we sure as hell started one (and then cut it short by sacking him a short way into that season). Yes we delayed it for far too long but it finally got started in summer 2019.

Rubbish…. You first made a decision for what you thought was the cheaper option bringing in Jose instead of listening to the great manager you already had who told you we needed a rebuild. You then appointed an absolute no-mark in Nuno.

Pochettino told Levy we needed (an expensive) rebuild. Mourinho told him that we didn't need a rebuild and he would win the league with the existing squad. Mourinho was therefore the cheaper option. Conte came a quarter of the way through the season after a we'd sacked Nuno Espírito Santo (a cheap option to replace Mourinho).


You've been saying that Levy didn't listen to Poch over his calls for a rebuild and chose to go with Jose who said we didn't need one for years- these two posts are from only a couple of months back - there's literally 5 years of posts saying the exact same thing. Now it's not only did Levy listen to Poch over the need for a rebuild it's that Mourinho was tasked with a rebuild that he wasn't even asking for! :tearsofjoy:

All this because you can't argue against the logic that if Ange needs time to see a rebuild through so does the club (hence the 4 / 5 rebuild crap)
 
You've been saying that Levy didn't listen to Poch over his calls for a rebuild and chose to go with Jose who said we didn't need one for years- these two posts are from only a couple of months back - there's literally 5 years of posts saying the exact same thing. Now it's not only did Levy listen to Poch over the need for a rebuild it's that Mourinho was tasked with a rebuild that he wasn't even asking for! :tearsofjoy:

All this because you can't argue against the logic that if Ange needs time to see a rebuild through so does the club (hence the 4 / 5 rebuild crap)
He didn’t listen to Poch as he sacked him when he had just started his rebuild: if he had listened to Poch he wouldn’t have (ridiculously IMO) jettisoned Poch just as his rebuild had finally commenced.

If Levy had listened to Poch he would’ve given him at least 2 years and 4 to 5 transfer windows to complete a rebuild. He instead did the very worst thing and let him start one only to give up on it.

He then fell for the oldest trick in the book from Mourinho who told him we didn’t need a rebuild and we could win the league with the existing squad. Of course looking in from the outside Mourinho would know much better than the man currently in the job, who had been there for 5 years doing extremely well but knowing that the squad had gone stale and some of their legs had gobe.

Mourinho then arrives realises that Pochettino was right (surprise surprise) and starts demanding his own new players.

The chairman lets him spend some money only to eventually sack him because Jose weirdly actually wants to prioritise winning a cup when we’ve got to the final. I mean who wants to win a cup when there’s a 5 percent chance of 4th place to be strived for!?!

We then go again with the next man who gets some more money to spend for his different system and a quarter of a season before he is binned (for another manager with a completely different system) and so on and so forth….

If the club want to embark upon a 5 year rebuild (I think a lot longer than Poch would’ve needed iif the club had invested properly in the recruitment department) then they should’ve been picking a manager (probably one with a similar style of play to Pochettino) and sticking with them through that rebuild.

I say Ange needs time for the very reason of what we have seen in the last 5 years…. Rebuilds need patience and to have a coherent strategy. Investing a bit in a rebuild only to tear that up and start again and do so over and over is unlikely to achieve a good result, instead it is likely to just waste money.

If the club really do want to keep chop and changing managers then we need to be far more like Brighton and at least bring in managers with a similar style of play so that we don’t have to continually start again.

5 years and still counting…. Just how long do tou think a rebuild should take and why in your World does the club get 5 years (and counting) for a rebuild but a manager can’t have more than 18 months? Despite the overwhelming evidence from the last 5 years and 5 managers that more time is needed?
 
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5 years and still counting…. Just how long do tou think a rebuild should take?

Well as previously explained Paratichi started the ball rolling and Lange has taken it on from there, so we're 3 years in. Asides from a couple of players we have had to purge the squad of all the players that preceded him signed during Hitchens time at the club and then replace what was essentially a whole squad of players - is 3 years a long enough time to replace a whole squad of players and leave yourselves with minimal work to do? I don't think so, maybe I'm being easy on them though
 
He didn’t listen to Poch as he sacked him when he had just started his rebuild: if he had listened to Poch he wouldn’t have (ridiculously IMO) jettisoned Poch just as his rebuild had finally commenced.

If Levy had listened to Poch he would’ve given him at least 2 years and 4 to 5 transfer windows to complete a rebuild. He instead did the very worst thing and let him start one only to give up on it.

He then fell for the oldest trick in the book from Mourinho who told him we didn’t need a rebuild and we could win the league with the existing squad. Of course looking in from the outside Mourinho would know much better than the man currently in the job, who had been there for 5 years doing extremely well but knowing that the squad had gone stale and some of their legs had gobe.

Mourinho then arrives realises that Pochettino was right (surprise surprise) and starts demanding his own new players.

The chairman lets him spend some money only to eventually sack him because Jose weirdly actually wants to prioritise winning a cup when we’ve got to the final. I mean who wants to win a cup when there’s a 5 percent chance of 4th place to be strived for!?!

We then go again with the next man who gets some more money to spend for his different system and a quarter of a season before he is binned (for another manager with a completely different system) and so on and so forth….

If the club want to embark upon a 5 year rebuild (I think a lot longer than Poch would’ve needed iif the club had invested properly in the recruitment department) then they should’ve been picking a manager (probably one with a similar style of play to Pochettino) and sticking with them through that rebuild.

I say Ange needs time for the very reason of what we have seen in the last 5 years…. Rebuilds need patience and to have a coherent strategy. Investing a bit in a rebuild only to tear that up and start again and do so over and over is unlikely to achieve a good result, instead it is likely to just waste money.

If the club really do want to keep chop and changing managers then we need to be far more like Brighton and at least bring in managers with a similar style of play so that we don’t have to continually start again.

5 years and still counting…. Just how long do tou think a rebuild should take and why in your World does the club get 5 years (and counting) for a rebuild but a manager can’t have more than 18 months? Despite the overwhelming evidence from the last 5 years and 5 managers that more time is needed?

Great post. You get to the heart of why Levy just had to vacate the football ops role at the club. The good news is that he did.

Unlike some, I don't think we measure the rebuild from when Ange started. The rebuild started 2 years prior when Paratici walked through the door and went to work on the squad. Some of my current disappointment is that we're now in year 4 of the rebuild and perhaps not as far along as we should be.

That being said, quite often it is the final pieces that help to find that important tipping point. I remember Poch throwing in Wanyama and we ended up with 86 goals scored, 26 conceded and hit 86 points in the league. Leicester had won the league with 81 points the previous season. For Poch, just that one signing made such a difference.

By September 2025, we need to have the missing elements of this current squad in place. It might be a slightly longer journey than Poch because of the age of the squad though. We still need the squad composition aligned to Ange's tactical system.
 
We look back kindly on old WHL because we remember the highs and forget the many, many quiet meh games.

In the new WHL the club are refusing to engage with fan groups that want to start a singing section, see Tweet below.

I'm watching Lille v SGR right now and Lille fans have a separate podium with 2 nutters standing on it facing away from the game, directing the fans, shouting into microphones, calling out goalscorers etc.

Read this

That twitter post is a tad dramatic though, I have seen managers with shorter leaving statements
 
Lot of assumptions in there

- ENIC/Levy aren't in it for quick flip (after 23 years we know that), and it's childish to say they don't want success. They want success within a self sustaining model (case there for will/can that work)
- We are no where near top of value, nor prices, nor tv deals, take a look at American Sports to understand how far it can still go. And it will help you understand why American investors are the new owners most likely.
- Saudi Sportswashing Machine probably increased our value, previously the argument would have been much cheaper to buy a City/Saudi Sportswashing Machine for a few hundred million than a Spurs for a few billions, the issues is FFP/PSR has shown there is a value to have a club that already generates top revenue to allow you to spend (Assuming buyer has deep pockets). Add in, a lot of the other options to buy don't have London, don't have the multiple revenue streams, don't have the infrastructure work done (lots of teams need new/refreshed stadiums).

Spurs has a very small pool of buyers that can buy us, but for that pool, it's a very attractive proposition.

I'm certainly not implying ENIC are looking to cash in on us ASAP. In fact I am saying the opposite.

Surely right now is the time to sell.

Of course ENIC want success. If they could, completely of their own accord, grant us a trophy they would. It is in their interests we are as succesful as we possibly can be, It is what will eventualy pocket Levy 25% of our sale price.

Yeah I can definently see American investment being a likely outcome.

I would be suprised if there's more money we can produce for ENIC aside from natural football inflation. I.e., inflation in line with what will be happening elsewhere.

Obviously American football will always be happening here. We will have many concerts.

I am very much on the fence with regards to ENIC. I massivley respect them, and Levy, for the growth during my liftime and the stadium they have delivered.

At the same time it is very clear we will never compete for honours under ENIC. Their approach to running a club is what a natural approach SHOULD be (a club that only spends what it earns).

But the aritifcal investment in Chelsea (not once but twice!), City and Saudi Sportswashing Machine shows our project will likely amount to nothing.

I am definently not anti-ENIC. I think they have run the club well. I do however feel we cannot compete under them.
 
But the turnover from our stadium / sponsorthips / etc is high. Just a shame we don't have CL money right now.

Cheats have spent 5 years worth of money in one go and tied themselves into some VERY long deals.
City are facing 115 charges, allegedly.
From this exact moment in time, from these current squads, imagine* if each team can spend per year for the next 5 years, something like:
MNC 70
LIV 120
ARS 100
CHE 50
MNU 150
TOT 100
NEW 50
AST 50
BRI 50

*I said IMAGINE
I am not saying this is the truth
I am saying IMAGINE

Whichever team wastes money will get worse and worse, whichever team spends wisely will get better and better.
All is not lost.

I wonder how much we invest on getting "the spend right". How much are Munn/Lange/Paratici/etc costing us? Very little compared to any player they choose to spend money on.

The vital thing is that we WILL have enough money to claw our way back upwards, IF it is spent well. We are not Ipswich.
 
Announcement:
The Future of Return of the Shelf

After much deliberation, the Return of the Shelf movement has unanimously voted to step away from working with Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.

We no longer feel aligned with what the Club is trying achieve, or that we are making any progress towards our primary goals.

While we remain dedicated to improving the atmosphere and bringing like-minded passionate fans together, we will now continue as an independent fan-driven movement.

Viva la independencia

Return of the Shelf

 
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Announcement:
The Future of Return of the Shelf

After much deliberation, the Return of the Shelf movement has unanimously voted to step away from working with Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.

We no longer feel aligned with what the Club is trying achieve, or that we are making any progress towards our primary goals.

While we remain dedicated to improving the atmosphere and bringing like-minded passionate fans together, we will now continue as an independent fan-driven movement.

Viva la independencia

Return of the Shelf


Sorry not on twitter. Are they going to stop going to games?
 
Announcement:
The Future of Return of the Shelf

After much deliberation, the Return of the Shelf movement has unanimously voted to step away from working with Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.

We no longer feel aligned with what the Club is trying achieve, or that we are making any progress towards our primary goals.

While we remain dedicated to improving the atmosphere and bringing like-minded passionate fans together, we will now continue as an independent fan-driven movement.

Viva la independencia

Return of the Shelf

Who are they and what do they do?
 
Sorry not on twitter. Are they going to stop going to games?
Who are they and what do they do?
They were trying to create an atmosphere at the stadium - trying getting a singing section, etc.

It was a failure sadly. Although I don't think severing ties with club is a move that will help them. I wonder if the guy behind it is also going to step away from FAB?
 
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