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ENIC

@SpurMeUp - see here.

1. You've failed to acknowledge that Levy has closed the gap on the elite clubs. You've not answered that question and ended up on a tangent.

I have, you just don't like the answer. It isn't all down to him, it's down to the explosion in value of the Premier League taking us with it as passengers. Some of it is down to him. Not all. Growth in commercial revenue by contrast, for example, has lagged compared to our rivals.

2. You’d prefer to support Leicester, even with them relegated now? One short moment in the sun but long term a Championship yo-yo club. You’d prefer that honestly? The league title would have sated your incessant desire, changed your life and made you a more happy go lucky chap? For all the supposed woes we ‘suffer’, I'll take trophyless Spurs and our long term trajectory which started upwards under Enic.

Like I said, why worry about the 'doing a Leeds' trope we've been worrying about irrationally for 20 years? Couldn't we be bought by FSG and won leagues and Champions Leagues without it?

3. What you are saying is that to own a PL club you have to subsidize it? That is an unsustainable position and means you can only win stuff if you are the elite of the elite of the elite wealth wise. And you'd be right. We have that setup now but there are greater controls coming becuase its unsustainable as a specticle. Outside of the oil funded clubs – we can see that cash investment into players are always finite. Owners like Randy Learner or Srivaddhanaprabha may invest 100s of millions, but look what happened to their clubs when the cash stopped! So you are either in with the dirty oil money or prone to crash and burn.

That is how football was. It is how it is. It is how it will be. A PL club, or any club, is almost always a loss-making endeavour. You *have to* subsidize it, comes with the territory.

We aren't doing something the 'right' way, we are just conducting a masochistic experiment of crippling ourselves for zero reason other than to enrich our owners who don't want to spend more than the bare minimum on us. Almost no one else operates this way.

4. You build a club with genuine revenue to challenge the hegemony. Which is what Levy has started to do. Something you have trouble admitting. Which marks you as somewhat irrational, whether you can admit it or not. Spurs could elevate towards the United model in 5-20 years. Far far from certain, but we’re in with a shot, we have a platform. We need to build incrementally and win trophies.

>Spurs could elevate towards the United model

...and you call me the irrational one? Come on, mate. It took 22 grinding years to go from roughly the 7th or 8th most revenue to between the 5th and 6th.

Catching United will take a century at this rate.


5. How do you know whether Levy values the club like you do? Spurs support was passed down to him via his family, and he has a local connection to the area. Of course he's a business man, but there is more going on than just money. He could have raised cash for land in his own name and built 100 x 1 bed flats and retired. A cinch (xcuse the commercial pun) compared to the work he does do. Like a lot of people Levy is interested in his legacy, interested in history. He is at every game. He put everything he had into the stadium and training complex development.

It's interesting you're going with this tack, considering Levy infamously admitted he had no interest in football in an interview in 2002, describing ENIC's move into football as 'purely financial'. Surprising for such a life long fan.

It isn't me, it's from BBC journo and award-winning writer Tom Bower's book 'Broken Dreams'. I quote -

"There is no passion here,' said Levy, admitting that neither Lewis nor himself was particularly keen on football. 'This is purely financial.'"

I'm willing to grant that maybe he developed an attachment in the 20 years he's hung around like a bad smell
. But I highly doubt that backstory of him being a lifelong fan, yada yada yada.

6. Arguably, Levys failing is actually not being more involved in the football side. You mentioned Bloom at Brighton he is far more involved in the player trading setup, recruitment and sales. Yet you are desperate that this highly successful Cambridge graduate should not use their brain to help with the playing side. Again it is not really rational.

I don't care about Bloom's decision making. I care that he invested in his team, which makes him better than Levy by a country mile.
 
Sigh.

View attachment 15836View attachment 15836

So, that's 200m to Arse since then up to early 2022, including the 184m Kroenke loaned Arse to pay off stadium loans. Not including another injection later that year, even more this year (article suggests up to 200m of Kroenke's own money, but it's likely to be smaller than that).

It's not far off. Would you want me to dig up the figures for the other owner injections as of 2023? 126m for Wolves (at least) since 2020, some proportion of 360m for Aston Villa since 2018, and so on.
So he's loaned the club money to pay.off other loans?

In which case, taking the most generous view, all he's put into the club is the interest. And that assumes he's charging no interest at all on the loans.
 
No, there's no expectation that you be here every min. It would give you a bit of credibility if the only times you were on weren't just to spout something negative. If there was a little balance with you actually giving recognition to the good then when you do spout something negative then the reaction might not be "here we go again".

People see what they want to see. If you only see me posting something negative, that's on you, not me.

The only way I could change that is if I was here 24/7 posting about everything all the time, clapping like a loon at all and sundry. And frankly mate, you ain't worth it.

Wouldn't ask for the reverse, either, because both of us have better things to do.
 
But that is what *always* happened mate - football clubs were usually loss making entities to begin with, and outside of a few exceptions, *always* had to be subsidized by owners just to exist. Owners didn't buy football clubs to make a profit, they did it to spend their money on a passion project, for any number of reasons. So why is it any different just because the scale of that spending is bigger now?

Two thirds of all European clubs made losses in 2022/2023 - about the same proportion were making losses in 1992, and doubtless before then as well.

Almost no one goes into football to make money - as the BBC quoted someone saying, 'the quickest way to make 1M in football is to spend 2M.'

We are just burdened by being one of the very few clubs across football history to have been bought to make a profit - run at zero loss to the owners, with absolutely nothing from them, so they can earn a massive whack when they sell up.

Emirates Marketing Project is now spending on the scale of billions, so it takes billions to match them. Those billions exist - Todd Boehly's spent, what, more than half a billion since he got to Chelsea last year? Stan Kroenke has spent 600m of his own money on Arsenal these last few years. FSG pumped in just 300m of their own money and got Liverpool winning the lot.

But all of them see nothing wrong with relying on owner investment to compete - because that is what football has always been.

And we need better, more ambitious owners to match them. It's the only way to compete.
Well Levy made himself highest paid chairman not based on football results. Says a lot about the ambitions of the club doesn't it.

And why can't Levy contribute more millions since he is eventually going to profit in billions when he sells?



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1. The leagues growth has no bearing on the revenue gap to the elite clubs. (maybe it has made closing it even harder). So you can't use the growth of the PL as a way to avoid crediting Levy for closing the revenue gap for Spurs. There is more to do, but it is the only sustainable way to compete that doesn't involve oil-derived funding.

2. I am no worried about doing a Leeds as we have a secure setup. Would you gamble your house on red? Why would you do the same with your club?

3. Could you possibly explain Manchester United? The don't fit your reality at all. They generate huge revenue and pay out dividends and pay off huge debts. Have done for decades now. Hmmm your sweeping generalisations don't seem too logical.

4. Unlike you I am not too worried if we don't become the elite overnight. I am here for the journey. I'll enjoy the successs when it comes, but a tropohy won't change my life in a meaningful way. The point is we have a platform, and success can come quickly when all the ingredients come together. If our 'platform' was where we were pre-Enic, attaining Europe would be our celing.

5. As you know, but failed to mention, the 20 year old quote was when Enic took over Ranger FC. Which was sold, no doubt for a profit.

6. Your last point just shows up your irrationality. According to you, you don't care about success, just that an individual invests money into a club. Even if they are tinkling it away and attain nothing.

Are you sure your position holds water?
 
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Well Levy made himself highest paid chairman not based on football results. Says a lot about the ambitions of the club doesn't it.

And why can't Levy contribute more millions since he is eventually going to profit in billions when he sells?



Sent from my SM-T865 using Fapatalk
Where would levy get the cash from to invest/lose?
He isn’t a mega rich man
His money is tied up in the club already I’m afraid
 
One thing that many people who don't own/run a business regularly fail to grasp is that by reinvesting the profits, they are investing their own money.

Every dividend not taken is effectively investment.

I have no idea how many other PL owners do or don't take dividends. I suspect ENIC are not the only ones not to.
 
I have just reported a post on twitter which read "Levy and Lewis deserve death" - seemingly from a UK based Spurs fan albeit not a regular tweeter.
I know there is a lot of dislike and even hatred towards ENIC but some of the language used is beyond insulting and ridiculous, it's potentially dangerous. (Not on here obviously). I wish people would stop to think sometimes.
 
I have just reported a post on twitter which read "Levy and Lewis deserve death" - seemingly from a UK based Spurs fan albeit not a regular tweeter.
I know there is a lot of dislike and even hatred towards ENIC but some of the language used is beyond insulting and ridiculous, it's potentially dangerous. (Not on here obviously). I wish people would stop to think sometimes.

Are you sure he wasn't Saudi based?
 
All the best to Kane, hope he wins the lot there, over and over. Also though I'm not Levy's biggest fan anymore, I'd like to see someone else have a crack of the chairman whip, well done him for not dragging it to deadline day.
 
I have just reported a post on twitter which read "Levy and Lewis deserve death" - seemingly from a UK based Spurs fan albeit not a regular tweeter.
I know there is a lot of dislike and even hatred towards ENIC but some of the language used is beyond insulting and ridiculous, it's potentially dangerous. (Not on here obviously). I wish people would stop to think sometimes.
Idiots behind a keyboard thinking it's ok to say stuff online they'd never say face to face to the person.
 
I have just reported a post on twitter which read "Levy and Lewis deserve death" - seemingly from a UK based Spurs fan albeit not a regular tweeter.
I know there is a lot of dislike and even hatred towards ENIC but some of the language used is beyond insulting and ridiculous, it's potentially dangerous. (Not on here obviously). I wish people would stop to think sometimes.

your report has been received, Elon’s retweeted the death post, boosted it and commented “interesting”
 
I have just reported a post on twitter which read "Levy and Lewis deserve death" - seemingly from a UK based Spurs fan albeit not a regular tweeter.
I know there is a lot of dislike and even hatred towards ENIC but some of the language used is beyond insulting and ridiculous, it's potentially dangerous. (Not on here obviously). I wish people would stop to think sometimes.

I always thought you were one of the more sensible fans, someone I respected.

Disappointed in you to be honest, reposting stuff like that.

Haha just reread it, said reported, thought you said repost
 
So he's loaned the club money to pay.off other loans?

In which case, taking the most generous view, all he's put into the club is the interest. And that assumes he's charging no interest at all on the loans.

That assumes he'll ask for his money back. Given the level of his sustained, ambitious investment, seems unlikely.

@SpurMeUp - see below.

1. The leagues growth has no bearing on the revenue gap to the elite clubs. (maybe it has made closing it even harder). So you can't use the growth of the PL as a way to avoid crediting Levy for closing the revenue gap for Spurs. There is more to do, but it is the only sustainable way to compete that doesn't involve oil-derived funding.

Not at all. The reason is because of the disparity in how league revenues have grown in the last twenty years. Look at this for an overview from just 2012 to 2012 - note that matchday revenues only climbed by less than 50%, but commercial and TV revenues both tripled. And of that amount, TV revenues jumped the most. TV revenue went from roughly 50% of total revenue to over 60%.

The big differentiators for clubs are commercial revenue and matchday revenue, since broadcasting is equal (mostly). The fact that the proportion of both has decreased as a part of overall revenue compared to broadcasting has narrowed the gap across the league
.

2. I am no worried about doing a Leeds as we have a secure setup. Would you gamble your house on red? Why would you do the same with your club?

Well, then why is the only alternative you offered to ENIC's grinding rule being a) Leicester winning the league and getting relegated, of b) Leeds? Why can't we aspire to an FSG? A Bloom? Hell, even a Boehly? People with the intelligence, ambition and wealth to compete?

3. Could you possibly explain Manchester United? The don't fit your reality at all. They generate huge revenue and pay out dividends and pay off huge debts. Have done for decades now. Hmmm your sweeping generalisations don't seem too logical.

I really don't get what you're asking me to explain about United. What do you want me to explain?

4. Unlike you I am not too worried if we don't become the elite overnight. I am here for the journey. I'll enjoy the successs when it comes, but a tropohy won't change my life in a meaningful way. The point is we have a platform, and success can come quickly when all the ingredients come together. If our 'platform' was where we were pre-Enic, attaining Europe would be our celing.

We have sold our best player and finished 8th. When they took over we were finishing 8th-12th or thereabouts. In 22 years, our platform has grown *marginally*, but not by nearly enough to win anything, since, y'know, we mostly haven't. 22 years of (almost) sod all investment for that marginal gain?
5. As you know, but failed to mention, the 20 year old quote was when Enic took over Ranger FC. Which was sold, no doubt for a profit.

Read it again. Read it closely. Neither Levy nor Lewis were particularly interested in football - not Scottish football, not Rangers football, just football.

Strange for a 'lifelong fan' to have no interest in the sport his supposed club plays.


6. Your last point just shows up your irrationality. According to you, you don't care about success, just that an individual invests money into a club. Even if they are tinkling it away and attain nothing.

Again, really not sure what you mean. Absent other considerations, an owner that puts their own money into their club will generally be superior in my eyes to one that does not, because he or she has a personal stake in the club's success. As Theodore Roosevelt once stated, they are in the arena, they take risks, and thus they are better than those grey souls that know neither victory nor defeat. The latter is an admirable description of Daniel Levy.

Are you sure your position holds water?
 
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