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Energy costs

Gifter said:
The compunding factor in the energy rises is that they seam/stream right through everything else we have to buy. Today I was in Tesco's and looked up and there must have been a 50-60ft rise in the structure which is just open to the roof, got me thinking about the electrical/heating costs for a building of that size, then extrapolate that out across the country in every field of commerce, plus councils, hospitals etc.

It's massive and will add at least another 1% to everything else.

Gordinho - I'd say they certainly are colluding. The 10's or whatever this decade is called will be looked back on as the 'pant's down' decade I rekon.
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Without a doubt, everything is being exposed for the rotten state it's in, from MP's expenses, Leveson, South Yorks police being rotten and colluding with the government to hide the fact, family entertainers being exposed as serial rapists and abusers, right through to state involvement in murder. I bet those previously dismissed as tin foil hat wearers and delusional conspiracy theorists are walking round with smug grins on their faces at the moment. :)

PS. Libor as well.
 
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Gifter said:
The compunding factor in the energy rises is that they seam/stream right through everything else we have to buy. Today I was in Tesco's and looked up and there must have been a 50-60ft rise in the structure which is just open to the roof, got me thinking about the electrical/heating costs for a building of that size, then extrapolate that out across the country in every field of commerce, plus councils, hospitals etc.

It's massive and will add at least another 1% to everything else.

Gordinho - I'd say they certainly are colluding. The 10's or whatever this decade is called will be looked back on as the 'pant's down' decade I rekon.
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Interesting you mention Tescos, a friend of mine wrote his masters thesis on energy use in Supermarkets. Well over 50% of thier energy cost is on refrigeration because they are open faced with no door, in contrast to a home fridge/freezer which is much more efficient. In fact, they save a lot on heating because the heat generated from the fridges is recycled to heat other parts of the building.
 
Gordinho said:
The rate of inflation is immaterial if their rise in prices is based on the true cost of purchase gas and selling it on. However, I'm sceptical of anything the energy companies say, I'm not convinced they're not colluding to fix prices, plus of course when some of the energy companies are saying they pay X to buy a unit of gas or electric they neglect to mention the wholesaler is part of the same group so they are in fact just shunting money around within one organisation. So the left hand is buying from the right hand and then passing on the increased costs to us while the right hand is enjoying a handsome increase in profits.
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See, heres the problem I have with claiming collusion between the companies, why would they all do it?

Lets assume the price rises are artifically inflated by uncompetitive collusion between companies. That means there is an artifically large gap between production cost from the companies and our end user bills. Why would every company go along with it? It may appear that they all make more money, but if one company decided not to do it and keep prices at their natural competitive level customers would flock to them because other prices are artifically high. Therefore it makes no sense for them all to do it, because one can just undercut the rest and make far far more profit than if they just go along with the price rises.
 
Also, I haven't done it but if you compare the rise in energy prices with the rise in petrol prices I imagine you will see some correlation. With all western countries printing money like theres no tomorrow I see no reason to believe inflation is as low as the figures suggest.
 
Richie said:
See, heres the problem I have with claiming collusion between the companies, why would they all do it?

Lets assume the price rises are artifically inflated by uncompetitive collusion between companies. That means there is an artifically large gap between production cost from the companies and our end user bills. Why would every company go along with it? It may appear that they all make more money, but if one company decided not to do it and keep prices at their natural competitive level customers would flock to them because other prices are artifically high. Therefore it makes no sense for them all to do it, because one can just undercut the rest and make far far more profit than if they just go along with the price rises.
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BA and Virgin did it in the past so I'm sure there are sound commercial reasons for operating a cartel, the simplest reason that springs to mind is that if prices are based on what the market will bear rather than true costs then all the colluding companies can keep their snouts in the trough rather than one take all the customers but have lower profit margins per customer.

Why have competition and efficiencies when it's easier to jointly fleece the whole market?
 
Gordinho said:
BA and Virgin did it in the past so I'm sure there are sound commercial reasons for operating a cartel, the simplest reason that springs to mind is that if prices are based on what the market will bear rather than true costs then all the colluding companies can keep their snouts in the trough rather than one take all the customers but have lower profit margins per customer.

Why have competition and efficiencies when it's easier to jointly fleece the whole market?
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Yes but the point is that a company can spring up and undercut the competition and take business away from every colluding company. To follow on from your example, look at how a business like Easyjet and Ryanair took off (pun intended) and became the biggest airways companies.

The only time a monopoly can really hurt consumers is when the government gets involved through regulation which curbs free market forces and restricts genuine competition in the market.
 
Richie said:
Yes but the point is that a company can spring up and undercut the competition and take business away from every colluding company. To follow on from your example, look at how a business like Easyjet and Ryanair took off (pun intended) and became the biggest airways companies.

The only time a monopoly can really hurt consumers is when the government gets involved through regulation which curbs free market forces and restricts genuine competition in the market.
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Ryanair and Easyjet aren't in competition with Virgin and BA in my opinion. Especially when you consider the price fixing was in the long haul market, the only long haul Easyjet and Ryanair offer is from where they land to where they say they land.

If you think free market forces are genuinely operating in the energy market then I will respectfully ask that we agree to disagree. :)
 
Richie said:
Also, I haven't done it but if you compare the rise in energy prices with the rise in petrol prices I imagine you will see some correlation. With all western countries printing money like theres no tomorrow I see no reason to believe inflation is as low as the figures suggest.
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This =D>
 
Gordinho said:
Ryanair and Easyjet aren't in competition with Virgin and BA in my opinion. Especially when you consider the price fixing was in the long haul market, the only long haul Easyjet and Ryanair offer is from where they land to where they say they land.

If you think free market forces are genuinely operating in the energy market then I will respectfully ask that we agree to disagree. :)
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In our (Virgins) defence, I would like to point out that we blew the whistle on this and dobbed BA in it.
 
Bring on Nuclear Power and fudge the fudgewit companies who are bleeding the people dry back to France and whevever else they are.

Does anyone know whether major Energy Businesses pay full tax or not, or are they laundering there monies through Luxembourg or the like.

◾E.ON – Based in Dusseldorf, Germany, completed take over of Powergen in 2002.
◾EDF (Électricité de France) – Paris based, produced 22% of EU Electricity in 2003, 74.5% of which was from Nuclear Power.
◾NPower – It’s parent comapny is german giant RWE
◾Scottish Power – Controlled by Iberdola, a huge Spanish Utilities company
◾British Gas – Centrica ltd took over the British Gas name in the UK
◾Scottish and Southern Energy – Based in Perth, Scotland since its inception in 1998

The top four can fook off as far as I'm concerned.


Same for the Water and Trains.

Back to state owned.

To point out, I think the rises are being done on purpose with the aim of getting everyone on board to bring in Nuclear Power under the pretence of a cheaper power resource.
 
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Crawley said:
In our (Virgins) defence, I would like to point out that we blew the whistle on this and dobbed BA in it.
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I'm absolutely sure they're reasons for doing this were absolutely pure. As a matter of interest, did they make good the loss to everyone they'd overcharged prior to blowing the whistle?
 
Richie said:
Also, I haven't done it but if you compare the rise in energy prices with the rise in petrol prices I imagine you will see some correlation. With all western countries printing money like theres no tomorrow I see no reason to believe inflation is as low as the figures suggest.
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Especially when you factor in usury, when the US creates say $1 Trillion, that is not just new money diluting the value of that already in circulation, but money that is made from paper, then loaned to the FED with interest levied. Fairly sure it is the same here, and we wonder how/why every country is in debt!

I've read previously that Hitler wanted to end third party usury in Germany and instead start printing his own money, funnily enough that is when world leaders sprung up to stand against him (ponderous smiley). Scum suckers the lot of them.
 
Richie said:
Also, I haven't done it but if you compare the rise in energy prices with the rise in petrol prices I imagine you will see some correlation. With all western countries printing money like theres no tomorrow I see no reason to believe inflation is as low as the figures suggest.
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I was going to ask the same question. I'd imagine oil prices are considerably higher, partly because of the extra demand from China.

However, oil prices are quite volatile. The energy companies seem to pass on the increases pretty quickly but the prices don't seem to come down when prices decline, at best they don't go up as much.

Edit: Here are the prices ...

global_oil_production_consumption_price_2000-01_2012_03.jpg

Global monthly oil production, consumption and price, 2000-2012 (Data source: EIA)



Anyone have fond memories of the large price reduction in 2009?
 
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Gordinho said:
Without a doubt, everything is being exposed for the rotten state it's in, from MP's expenses, Leveson, South Yorks police being rotten and colluding with the government to hide the fact, family entertainers being exposed as serial rapists and abusers, right through to state involvement in murder. I bet those previously dismissed as tin foil hat wearers and delusional conspiracy theorists are walking round with smug grins on their faces at the moment. :)

PS. Libor as well.
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Burn the heretic!
 
So. Yesterday I get my latest bill from E:eek:n.

Having been in credit all summer, I now show a debit amount. Nothing major. Consumption up as its the winter months, obviously.
But that is how this works, isn't it?...........what you use in winter, you don't use in summer, so the bill averages out, right?

So, having been paying £122 per month (since the last rise), they are now telling me they want £151 per month.

Now, even basic maths says to me that is NOT an 8.7% rise. That is closer to bloody 25%.

I'm off to start a Twitter campaign, because this is simply wrong.

Problem is, we are all too accepting. Time to stop.

I'm bloody fuming.
 
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