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Elon Musk buys twitter

Shouldn’t everyone be a free speech advocate? It shouldn’t be a left or right issue, everyone should be for it. It used to be a left wing cause, now it seems to have flipped to a right wing issue. The right used to be the ones banning video nasties and telling comedians they couldn’t say “fudge” on television. I agree you need to draw a line somewhere and that line is at hate speech. Not even sure I agree with Twitter fact checking posts about covid as to me that’s partially politically motivated. Although I did laugh when they did it to Trump previously.

I see Elon Musk has told employees to be exceptional or be fired. Gen Z must be like well my parents told me I’m exceptional just be existing :D

I think the clue is in the quotation marks around free speech activists.

Like Muskyboy lashing out at Apple for "hating free speech" when what they're doing is exercising their freedom of speech and freedom to decide for themselves where they advertise.
 
I think the clue is in the quotation marks around free speech activists.

Like Muskyboy lashing out at Apple for "hating free speech" when what they're doing is exercising their freedom of speech and freedom to decide for themselves where they advertise.

Yeah I’m fine with companies choosing where and how they advertise. I’m not convinced they do it purely for altruistic reasons, arguably comes down to money and how much negative publicity they would get from being associated with x company and the subsequent money they would lose but all the same, a company can choose who they partner themselves with. a recent example that comes to mind was when artists like Neil Young threatened to remove their music from Spotify if Spotify didn’t kick Joe Rogan off their platform. I have no problem with people not liking Rogan or not wanting to be associated with him in any way, but IMO it’s not a good look when people take that stance. Just leave the platform if you don’t like him. And I’m a big fan of Neil Young btw, my dad was also a huge fan and I have a lot of affection for his music for sentimental reasons.
 
Yeah I’m fine with companies choosing where and how they advertise. I’m not convinced they do it purely for altruistic reasons, arguably comes down to money and how much negative publicity they would get from being associated with x company and the subsequent money they would lose but all the same, a company can choose who they partner themselves with. a recent example that comes to mind was when artists like Neil Young threatened to remove their music from Spotify if Spotify didn’t kick Joe Rogan off their platform. I have no problem with people not liking Rogan or not wanting to be associated with him in any way, but IMO it’s not a good look when people take that stance. Just leave the platform if you don’t like him. And I’m a big fan of Neil Young btw, my dad was also a huge fan and I have a lot of affection for his music for sentimental reasons.

I definitely don't think they do it for altruistic reasons.

Personally I think doing what Neil Young did is a perfectly fine stance. But I can see the other side. My issue would more be with describing what he did as somehow being against free speech.
 
I definitely don't think they do it for altruistic reasons.

Personally I think doing what Neil Young did is a perfectly fine stance. But I can see the other side. My issue would more be with describing what he did as somehow being against free speech.

No issue with him taking his music elsewhere and away from Spotify if he doesn’t like or agree with the views or the content of the platform, just don’t think he needed to say “you can’t have Young and Rogan, you have to choose.” He could have gone on Rogan’s podcast and debated him on it, of course it’s his prerogative not to but that’s a far more adult way of disagreeing with someone then asking Spotify to de-platform Rogan.
 
I think the clue is in the quotation marks around free speech activists.

Like Muskyboy lashing out at Apple for "hating free speech" when what they're doing is exercising their freedom of speech and freedom to decide for themselves where they advertise.
Space Karen is not too happy about the 30% app store fee too. Considering his performance to date running this company I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't even aware of this fee.
 
Shouldn’t everyone be a free speech advocate? It shouldn’t be a left or right issue, everyone should be for it.

Not really no. Should we provide a platform for rapists, murderers and paedos in the interest of free speech? Back to my other point, why should we give people a platform under the banner of 'free speech' if what they say will incite attacks or harm? I don't see the 'free speech champions' asking for ISIS or al-qaeda to be given Twitter accounts. Aren't we denying them free speech?

Like my original point, should we allow people to deny the holocaust because heaven forbid we censor their freedom of speech on social media? Or should we go, "no, you're chatting absolute flimflam, you can still spout your lies but you can't spout them here".

No one is stopping their free speech. They're just deplatforming them for spreading lies, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
 
Not really no. Should we provide a platform for rapists, murderers and paedos in the interest of free speech? Back to my other point, why should we give people a platform under the banner of 'free speech' if what they say will incite attacks or harm? I don't see the 'free speech champions' asking for ISIS or al-qaeda to be given Twitter accounts. Aren't we denying them free speech?

Like my original point, should we allow people to deny the holocaust because heaven forbid we censor their freedom of speech on social media? Or should we go, "no, you're chatting absolute flimflam, you can still spout your lies but you can't spout them here".

No one is stopping their free speech. They're just deplatforming them for spreading lies, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Fully agree.

And for me that's what it means to be a free speech advocate. Acknowledging that free speech is of vital importance, but also that it's sometimes in direct conflict with other values that are equally important.

Furthermore recognising that having freedom of speech is not the same as having the right to a specific platform for that speech.

To me there's a lot of misconceptions around this. And the "free speech" advocacy I object to is more of a free speech extremism that in some cases ignores other values and doesn't separate free speech from "free platform".

Freedom of speech is being stopped or threatened many places in the world of course. Twitter banning people for spreading harmful lies is not one of those.
 
No issue with him taking his music elsewhere and away from Spotify if he doesn’t like or agree with the views or the content of the platform, just don’t think he needed to say “you can’t have Young and Rogan, you have to choose.” He could have gone on Rogan’s podcast and debated him on it, of course it’s his prerogative not to but that’s a far more adult way of disagreeing with someone then asking Spotify to de-platform Rogan.

Personally I think attempts at de platforming can be valid. I'm rather sure we'd agree in more extreme examples.

We probably draw the line for when we think that's OK somewhat differently.

I'm not convinced debating Rogan on his podcast is necessarily the most adult way of disagreeing in all or this specific example.

I'm a strong believer in debate and conversation between people who are honest actors looking to figure out what's true. Between people willing to look at the other side of an argument, take different arguments seriously.

I don't think debates with dishonest actors are useful. Having someone not trained at debates nor an expert in the relevant field to debate a dishonest actor is an outright bag idea imo.

Now, not saying Rogan is a dishonest actor. Just as an example. I wouldn't want a non expert debating him though as he's well trained in broadcasting narratives and opinions and is full of claims that are very difficult for a non expert to handle on the spot.

So for me the adult way to handle this is not to engage in a debate that could easily end up as counter productive. To publically voice objections and putting pressure on Spotify to do something about the lies they are helping to spread seems like a good idea. Including saying "me or him".
 
Not really no. Should we provide a platform for rapists, murderers and paedos in the interest of free speech? Back to my other point, why should we give people a platform under the banner of 'free speech' if what they say will incite attacks or harm? I don't see the 'free speech champions' asking for ISIS or al-qaeda to be given Twitter accounts. Aren't we denying them free speech?

Like my original point, should we allow people to deny the holocaust because heaven forbid we censor their freedom of speech on social media? Or should we go, "no, you're chatting absolute flimflam, you can still spout your lies but you can't spout them here".

No one is stopping their free speech. They're just deplatforming them for spreading lies, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Not sure if I ever suggested that murderers, rapists or terrorists should be allowed to have free speech. There’s a clear line that says you can’t incite hatred which is covered under the law. That’s where I draw the line, speech that incites prejudice and hatred.
 
Personally I think attempts at de platforming can be valid. I'm rather sure we'd agree in more extreme examples.

We probably draw the line for when we think that's OK somewhat differently.

I'm not convinced debating Rogan on his podcast is necessarily the most adult way of disagreeing in all or this specific example.

I'm a strong believer in debate and conversation between people who are honest actors looking to figure out what's true. Between people willing to look at the other side of an argument, take different arguments seriously.

I don't think debates with dishonest actors are useful. Having someone not trained at debates nor an expert in the relevant field to debate a dishonest actor is an outright bag idea imo.

Now, not saying Rogan is a dishonest actor. Just as an example. I wouldn't want a non expert debating him though as he's well trained in broadcasting narratives and opinions and is full of claims that are very difficult for a non expert to handle on the spot.

So for me the adult way to handle this is not to engage in a debate that could easily end up as counter productive. To publically voice objections and putting pressure on Spotify to do something about the lies they are helping to spread seems like a good idea. Including saying "me or him".

Where I disagree is that I don’t think Joe Rogan was spreading disinformation. He doesn’t claim to be an expert, he has people on his podcast who it’s fair to say are a little whacky but I don’t think he passes anything off as fact, he just presents an alternative opinion. When it comes to covid, we know a certain amount, but we will no doubt know more in 5 years than we do today. It’s still in its infancy. For example, we used to think the vaccine stopped you from passing it on to others and decreased your chance of catching the virus but we now know that’s not the case, but most importantly it decreases the chances of illness and mortality. The New York Times wrote an article which showed the gap between liberals and conservatives and how they view the virus in terms of its risks, how likely you are to end up in hospital if you got caught it etc. i can’t view the article again as there’s a paywall but a large number of liberals thought it was something like 20-40% of people who catch covid ended up in hospital when in reality it’s less than 5%. On the whole, I’d say conservatives were too reckless at times during the pandemic and some liberals were too cautious, but that number is very high for that many people to believe you would need hospital treatment for covid. Someone must be telling people this information, they’re getting it from somewhere. And I’m sure you’ll find conservative websites that show the opposite. The point is who decides what information is disinformation and what is ok? I’ll see if I can dig out the link, but the NY times is hardly a conservative paper. Think the headline was ‘Covid partisan errors’.
 
Not sure if I ever suggested that murderers, rapists or terrorists should be allowed to have free speech. There’s a clear line that says you can’t incite hatred which is covered under the law. That’s where I draw the line, speech that incites prejudice and hatred.

Not aimed at you by the way.

In terms of the above, how many times did Donald Trump incite hatred? How many times does Nigel Farage? They may never say "go attack these people" but by the constant dog whistles it has the same effect and outcome.
 
Not aimed at you by the way.

In terms of the above, how many times did Donald Trump incite hatred? How many times does Nigel Farage? They may never say "go attack these people" but by the constant dog whistles it has the same effect and outcome.

I don’t normally agree with things being banned, but Twitter were right IMO to ban Trump around the the time of the January 6th insurrection as he was just throwing fuel on the fire. As much as I dislike him, I’m not entirely against him being reinstated, but if he continues to incite violence then ban him permanently.

Everyone has a line when it comes to speech, I get it. I for one have never felt comfortable as a white man describing Indians/Arabs/Pakistanis as “brown”. Doesn’t sound right coming out of my mouth even though that is often how they would describe themselves. Pretty sure it’s not racist but I don’t feel comfortable saying it. My initial comment was more of a general comment of how free speech used to left wing ideal when it came to pushing for gay people or minorities to be able to do and say what they liked and to push back against right wing PC telling comedians they couldn’t swear on television, pushing back against the Mary Whitehouses of this world, the squares. Now it seems to have flipped the other way and the right wing have claimed free speech as an ideal and it’s Young progressives who are the squares and are telling people off but it shouldn’t be a left or a right issue.
 
Where I disagree is that I don’t think Joe Rogan was spreading disinformation. He doesn’t claim to be an expert, he has people on his podcast who it’s fair to say are a little whacky but I don’t think he passes anything off as fact, he just presents an alternative opinion. When it comes to covid, we know a certain amount, but we will no doubt know more in 5 years than we do today. It’s still in its infancy. For example, we used to think the vaccine stopped you from passing it on to others and decreased your chance of catching the virus but we now know that’s not the case, but most importantly it decreases the chances of illness and mortality. The New York Times wrote an article which showed the gap between liberals and conservatives and how they view the virus in terms of its risks, how likely you are to end up in hospital if you got caught it etc. i can’t view the article again as there’s a paywall but a large number of liberals thought it was something like 20-40% of people who catch covid ended up in hospital when in reality it’s less than 5%. On the whole, I’d say conservatives were too reckless at times during the pandemic and some liberals were too cautious, but that number is very high for that many people to believe you would need hospital treatment for covid. Someone must be telling people this information, they’re getting it from somewhere. And I’m sure you’ll find conservative websites that show the opposite. The point is who decides what information is disinformation and what is ok? I’ll see if I can dig out the link, but the NY times is hardly a conservative paper. Think the headline was ‘Covid partisan errors’.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture...vid-claims-what-does-the-science-actually-say

So, for me:

-“If you’re like 21 years old, and you say to me, should I get vaccinated? I’ll go, no.”
--Not misinformation. His opinion on what he thinks people should do.

-Rogan claimed the risk of myocarditis (heart muscle inflammation) among vaccinated 12- to 17-year-olds was higher than the risk associated with catching Covid.
--Misinformation. To his credit he had a guest on who argued against him. Good.

-evolutionary biologist Bret Weinstein, claimed that “ivermectin alone, if properly utilised, is capable of driving this pathogen to extinction” on his podcast.
--Misinformation, from a guest he had on who had a history of spreading such information. Not Rogan himself, but Rogan chose to give him a platform.

-“A vaccine is where they take a dead virus, and they turn it into a vaccine, and they inject it into your body so that your body fights off [the infection],” he said. “This is really gene therapy. It’s a different thing. It’s tricking your body into producing spike protein and making these antibodies for Covid.”
--Misinformation.

-“I’m not gonna get vaccinated. I have antibodies, it doesn’t make any sense.”
--A mix. It's his decision, that's fair. You can talk about your decision of course. But saying "it doesn't make any sense at all" if read/heard as "for someone like me who had the illness, it makes no sense, the same is true for you if that's your situation" is misinformation. I think that's at least a plausible interpretation, but he may just skirt the misinformation threshold.

To me the biggest question is what do we expect from him when giving a platform to someone who does spread disinformation?
 
https://www.theguardian.com/culture...vid-claims-what-does-the-science-actually-say

So, for me:

-“If you’re like 21 years old, and you say to me, should I get vaccinated? I’ll go, no.”
--Not misinformation. His opinion on what he thinks people should do.

-Rogan claimed the risk of myocarditis (heart muscle inflammation) among vaccinated 12- to 17-year-olds was higher than the risk associated with catching Covid.
--Misinformation. To his credit he had a guest on who argued against him. Good.

-evolutionary biologist Bret Weinstein, claimed that “ivermectin alone, if properly utilised, is capable of driving this pathogen to extinction” on his podcast.
--Misinformation, from a guest he had on who had a history of spreading such information. Not Rogan himself, but Rogan chose to give him a platform.

-“A vaccine is where they take a dead virus, and they turn it into a vaccine, and they inject it into your body so that your body fights off [the infection],” he said. “This is really gene therapy. It’s a different thing. It’s tricking your body into producing spike protein and making these antibodies for Covid.”
--Misinformation.

-“I’m not gonna get vaccinated. I have antibodies, it doesn’t make any sense.”
--A mix. It's his decision, that's fair. You can talk about your decision of course. But saying "it doesn't make any sense at all" if read/heard as "for someone like me who had the illness, it makes no sense, the same is true for you if that's your situation" is misinformation. I think that's at least a plausible interpretation, but he may just skirt the misinformation threshold.

To me the biggest question is what do we expect from him when giving a platform to someone who does spread disinformation?

It’s a fair question. I’m just not sure deplatforming someone is the answer. Where do you draw the line? To this day I still see plenty of people (particularly young people) wearing masks outside despite there being no evidence that you can catch the virus outside. People obviously wear masks because they feel they have to, not sure anyone would wear it through choice. The point I’m making is someone these people are clearly getting their information from somewhere that tells them they need to wear a mask outside or in a car with no passengers. Is that misinformation or just being overly cautious?
 
It’s a fair question. I’m just not sure deplatforming someone is the answer. Where do you draw the line? To this day I still see plenty of people (particularly young people) wearing masks outside despite there being no evidence that you can catch the virus outside. People obviously wear masks because they feel they have to, not sure anyone would wear it through choice. The point I’m making is someone these people are clearly getting their information from somewhere that tells them they need to wear a mask outside or in a car with no passengers. Is that misinformation or just being overly cautious?

I don't know where to draw that line, it's a difficult one and different people will draw that line differently. Someone with influence drawing that line at the point of spreading misinformation to a huge audience about an ongoing deadly pandemic I think is fine enough.

I don't know about masks. I don't know where they've gotten their information from. If someone "on the left" is spreading dangerous misinformation to big audiences I think calls for them to be deplatformed is fine. At least put some pressure on the owners/operators of platforms to consider what they put out beyond just clicks/downloads and revenue.
 
I don't know where to draw that line, it's a difficult one and different people will draw that line differently. Someone with influence drawing that line at the point of spreading misinformation to a huge audience about an ongoing deadly pandemic I think is fine enough.

I don't know about masks. I don't know where they've gotten their information from. If someone "on the left" is spreading dangerous misinformation to big audiences I think calls for them to be deplatformed is fine. At least put some pressure on the owners/operators of platforms to consider what they put out beyond just clicks/downloads and revenue.

Im just not a massive fan of calling for people, films, tv shows, podcasts etc to be banned. Think it’s just a hallmark of the era we live in, people are very quick to call for stuff or people to be banned or deplatformed. I blame social media and overprotective parenting. I realise Rogan has a big platform and a wide audience, but for me it says more about the individual who seeks their vaccine or covid advice from a UFC commentator, it’s on them if they take his opinions on health matters seriously. He’s a brilliant interviewer and I tune in to his podcasts for that reason but I switch off mentally when he starts talking about anything medical as he’s clearly just getting everything from google. I take his opinion seriously when it comes to UFC as he knows his stuff but even some of his fellow comics have taken him to task on his show when it comes do covid, Bill Burr basically said “I’m not gonna sit here and listen to you with no medical degree with an American flag behind you acting like you know what you’re talking about when it comes to medicine”. They were talking about wearing masks just for context.
 
Im just not a massive fan of calling for people, films, tv shows, podcasts etc to be banned. Think it’s just a hallmark of the era we live in, people are very quick to call for stuff or people to be banned or deplatformed. I blame social media and overprotective parenting. I realise Rogan has a big platform and a wide audience, but for me it says more about the individual who seeks their vaccine or covid advice from a UFC commentator, it’s on them if they take his opinions on health matters seriously. He’s a brilliant interviewer and I tune in to his podcasts for that reason but I switch off mentally when he starts talking about anything medical as he’s clearly just getting everything from google. I take his opinion seriously when it comes to UFC as he knows his stuff but even some of his fellow comics have taken him to task on his show when it comes do covid, Bill Burr basically said “I’m not gonna sit here and listen to you with no medical degree with an American flag behind you acting like you know what you’re talking about when it comes to medicine”. They were talking about wearing masks just for context.

I can (at least partly) get not liking calls for stuff to be banned. I can definitely respect others wanting that like drawn differently to what I prefer. It's a really difficult problem.

Not sure about social media and overprotective parenting. Was the same the reason for reactions to the life of Brian for example?

I agree about social media, but not sure if we see the mechanisms similarly. Social media, the attention driven economy magnifies and pays for content that is easy to produce. Debunking a false claim can take hours, making it takes seconds.

We live at a time when someone entirely without editorial oversight can reach millions. There's a lot of stuff being produced that would never reach air/print some decades back. And if it had been, the calls for it to be banned would have been immediate and massive.

If a reputable journalistic institution that publishes misinformation there's an editor, there's a process. Someone like Rogan, yeah, you can complain to him, but will he listen? Will he do anything? If you have the influence to get on his show you get to express yourself, but does he change his approach even then?

The calls for someone to be deplatformed is (imo) at least partly a result of there not being many other avenues to have any impactful complaints expressed.

Just to be clear, this spread of disinformation with little to no editorial oversight isn't a new phenomenon, but the volume and reach of it has expanded exponentially.

Personally I think it's a massive problem. And one that increases the magnitude of many other problems. If there's a way to engage and create change on this that hasn't been tried other than calls for deplatforming I haven't heard of them.

Meanwhile real people, and loads of them, are hurt in real significant ways or even die in part because of this disinformation. It causes more polarisation, and division. Sure it would be good if most people were better at getting their information from trustworthy sources. To me the spread of disinformation only makes this too worse. People are actively being encouraged not to listen to more reputable sources. The answer cannot be that people should be smarter about these things, because we're nowhere near making that happen.

(Last paragraph not about Rogan directly, but more in general and in part back to twitter).

On Rogan. He makes a lot of money from his show. He gets to spread the ideas he wants to spread wide and far. Doesn't he have some responsibility to fact check his guests and himself?

He's very good at the letting people make their points and conversation part of interviewing. He's not very good at fact checking, he's not very good at knowing enough about the issue at hand to present at least some balance. He's not very good at asking critical questions (unless he personally disagrees). For me he's not a brilliant interviewer. He's really good at having conversations though.

Listening to him you get a very good idea about what the guest thinks. That's good. But unless you already know enough about the subject to know when the guest is wrong you'll often be none the wiser if the guest spreads false information. So listening to him may give you more truth, may give you the opposite. That's not good interviewing for me.

If I listen to an interview and the subject says something that's wrong or controversial presented as fact I want to get that information. Without having to know it myself from before. To me that's a vital part of interviewing.
 
I don’t normally agree with things being banned, but Twitter were right IMO to ban Trump around the the time of the January 6th insurrection as he was just throwing fuel on the fire. As much as I dislike him, I’m not entirely against him being reinstated, but if he continues to incite violence then ban him permanently.

Everyone has a line when it comes to speech, I get it. I for one have never felt comfortable as a white man describing Indians/Arabs/Pakistanis as “brown”. Doesn’t sound right coming out of my mouth even though that is often how they would describe themselves. Pretty sure it’s not racist but I don’t feel comfortable saying it. My initial comment was more of a general comment of how free speech used to left wing ideal when it came to pushing for gay people or minorities to be able to do and say what they liked and to push back against right wing PC telling comedians they couldn’t swear on television, pushing back against the Mary Whitehouses of this world, the squares. Now it seems to have flipped the other way and the right wing have claimed free speech as an ideal and it’s Young progressives who are the squares and are telling people off but it shouldn’t be a left or a right issue.

What about white people or black people saying it?

No offence but I think it's the intent in which you its labels ...

For example if you said the homosexuals are having a parade for pride vs the fudging homosexuals are having a parade for pride ...

Also don't understand why is ok to put on an Italian accent or French accent but as soon as you do an Indian one its met with silence ...

I'm from Indian heritage by the way
 
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