Daniel Levy - Chairman

[fernadez]

fudge it.

We might as well give Hitchen the manager role. Seems to run the club anyway.

 

[Spoonman]

If you install Mourinho you HAVE to buy the players he needs otherwise it doesn't work. He isn't a development coach and never had been. He wants MEN who know who they are and what they do.

We had neither the squad for him or a willingness to buy the players he needed. That first January when he pleaded for a striker sand was given Bergwijn instead said it all.

J Jose was always the wrong appointment but we didn't even try to make it work.

Spot on. Successful Mourinho teams have always been built on dominant and reliable centre backs and powerful central midfielders to control a game, his teams could then play from there. We sadly just don't have those players at present.

 

[billyiddo]

See, for all the people that want to say that Kane was playing well dispute Jose, there is an argument that he recognised a winner, who knew what winning took and understood what the manager what trying to instill.

If the rumours about The dressing room were true, then in part we've bowed down to the same wasters who have been coasting for years, how is that progressing as a club, why is it only our players who seem to only respond to the arm round the shoulder school of management. Winning is hard.

Sacking him before the final still makes no sense without a replacement.

Meh, if you're going to believe the reports about Kane being bought in to Mourinho why not the ones that say he too eventually lost faith in him by the end? Can't really pick and choose like that

 

[fernadez]

Meh, if you're going to believe the reports about Kane being bought in to Mourinho why not the ones that say he too eventually lost faith in him by the end? Can't really pick and choose like that

I haven't seen them that's why. If I had I would have referenced it. I'm not pro or anti any manager.

 

[Mikey10]

I also wouldn't be surprised if part of it is the sacking of Jose. Not because he loved Jose so much, although he was clearly a fan, but because it meant we indulged a section of the squad that clearly finds it difficult to deal with criticism and not put in the hard yards when required. We saw it in the Amazon documentary, where Kane calls out the unacceptable laziness and lack of meteorology from some of the players.

My thoughts exactly on the Jose sacking. The view that the problem was Jose and that everything would suddenly return to being hopeful and positive if he was sacked was always naive in my opinion.

As I said before Mourinho was sacked, the problems at the club are deep and entrenched and they go way beyond any manager. And that’s what we’re now seeing playing out.

 

[Mikey10]

If you install Mourinho you HAVE to buy the players he needs otherwise it doesn't work. He isn't a development coach and never had been. He wants MEN who know who they are and what they do.

We had neither the squad for him or a willingness to buy the players he needed. That first January when he pleaded for a striker sand was given Bergwijn instead said it all.

J Jose was always the wrong appointment but we didn't even try to make it work.

Correct. It was same brick, different day.

He knew we were crying out for an established CB who could come in and lead the back line. He got Rodon.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Would be great to play in such an uncompetitive league

Their league is only uncompetitive in the way that there are two clubs who have so much bigger resources than the rest. Ignoring Real and Barcelona's Champions league successes, Spanish clubs have won 10 of the last 20 Europa Leagues, that compares to 4 wins by English clubs, 2 from Portuguese and Russian clubs and 1 for clubs from the Ukraine. That suggests that the Spanish league favours very well in terms of competitiveness.

What the president has done at Atletico is several levels above what Daniel Levy has achieved at Spurs by pretty much any measure.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Their league is only uncompetitive in the way that there are two clubs who have so much bigger resources than the rest. Ignoring Real and Barcelona's Champions league successes, Spanish clubs have won 10 of the last 20 Europa Leagues, that compares to 4 wins by English clubs, 2 from Portuguese and Russian clubs and 1 for clubs from the Ukraine. That suggests that the Spanish league favours very well in terms of competitiveness.

What the president has done at Atletico is several levels above what Daniel Levy has achieved at Spurs by pretty much any measure.

Helps them immensely that they get guarantee of CL money every season

 

[Finney Is Back]

They are a much bigger club than those mentioned, historically the third most successful club in Spain.

Actually historically they were 4th behind Bilbao until their resurgence after Cerezo took over.
Historically we'd won the 4th most honours in England when ENIC took over (we're now down to 6th).

 

[Baleforce]

Actually historically they were 4th behind Bilbao until their resurgence after Cerezo took over.
Historically we'd won the 4th most honours in England when ENIC took over (we're now down to 6th).

I based it on the current all time Spanish table.

You are right about Bilbao though, they were next, followed by Valencia.

 

[Jurgen the German]

- Their PL title was a fluke mate, a domestic cup win for a club challenging for European spots is not unheard of (it's difficult simply because of the dominance of 3 odd clubs). I said it, well done to them (I have a lot of grievances re that PL season, but that is a whole other story) but long term like a lot of clubs, they are fudged (money matters and even owners throwing cash, unless it's RA/Sheik kind of cash it isn't enough to permanently close the gap)

- Trophies matter, no one should deny that.

From my perspective, I think I back Levy/ENIC because I really don't see a lot of other doing "so much better" (last time we had this discussion on the board, there was some barrel scrapping with people saying Everton is doing a better job, I guess today it's Leicester), I don't see myself as "pro", same as with any manger, I'm "pro" Spurs.

The thing I think most people put forward is you can't have a real conversation about success/failure without acknowledging circumstance
- The stadium had an impact
- "Luck" our best year in recent memory (unbeaten at home, good team/manager combination) rolls into playing at Wembley, that further gets delayed
- Truly weird brick like Lasagne, 4th but no CL, 72 points but no CL
- The fact that trophies dominated by a very small group of clubs

and to @Bedfordspurs point, it's not that we are completely out of the running, 21 times in a QF, SF or final means the basic infrastructure is there but for whatever reason it hasn't worked (we can't even fluke a final win).

Wanting Levy/ENIC out is quite honestly a lazy answer, lets go at it

- What are the new owners going to do differently? (only answer I've seen is spend money)
- How much money are we talking about? is that taking into account the £150-£200M each Pool/United/City/Chelsea are likely to spend per season (so are we matching them? or outspending them, if outspend by how much to close the gap?)
- What miracle method are they going to use to get a better hit/miss ratio with players/coach vs. everyone else in the league
- And what is the expectation, 1 cup per 10 years, 2, 3? what's that number?
- And is that including getting European qualification (cause current management has us in Europe for over 12 season)?

I'm amazed that people really believe if Levy/ENIC had managed to buy 1 player here or there (in their mind every major buy works out) it would have fundamentally changed the direction of the club.

The reason I'm ok with where we are is I look at the best case scenario and we might do better (maybe that cup or two) but the fudging odds are we might do worse as well (probably significantly more likely to go that route) and the hold option (lets see Stadium impact in next two years) is the most pragmatic/sensible for now.

On the flip side, how long are you willing to give ENIC to see their plans come to fruition? Would you be willing to give them another 20 years for example? If we are sat here in another 20 years with say one more trophy, would you be happy with that? What is the threshold for saying enough is enough or what is the safe word? For example if we slide into mid table like Arsenal for 2-4 years would you be happy to persist with ENIC?

I think it’s just natural for some that after 20 years they think it may be time for a change. 20 years is not an insignificant amount of time. Hell, even 10 years is a long time in football. They’ve had double that.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Right, well I can almost guarantee that the first bit is happening now - club telling Kane 'we won't sell you for less than 125m' and Kane saying 'you pay me the same as NDombele and only double what you pay goddamn Sissoko'.

Now we will see if the second bit happens - if he signs a new deal and becomes the highest-paid Prem player. We'll see.

I don't think Kane would sign. There is no point in him earning £400k a week at Spurs when he could earn pretty much that amount anyway but at a club that prioritises the football side of things and pushes to win trophies. We need to accept that Kane is leaving and we need to do so thanking him for his service and welcoming him whenever he comes back to the lane, irrespective of who it is with.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I agree.

None of this news surprises me. The manager search. Kane. The less than ideal noises coming from the club. The sacking of Poch. The sacking of Jose. The lack of progress over the last two years.

This looks, very obviously, like we are regressing to the mean that we can realistically expect under ENIC. And that our great moments of the last few years were down to the heroic achievements of Pochettino and a generational talent like Kane. Both people who loved the club, and valued building something great, and who we frankly used to help us overachieve for as long as possible before they decided they'd had enough.

It's a damn shame, and I just do not understand how people are sanguine about it. It's one thing to make the argument that this is all we can realistically expect under these owners, but purely as fans and the visceral reaction most of you must have given we were so close and had people that would have committed to taking us all the way, does this not just sting a bit?

Guess the difference is now, Kane stuck around for 8 years. In old Spurs pre and early enic he’d have been off 4 years ago. We’re not at the top table but we’re in sight of it - which is also the frustration.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Bishop]

I don't think Kane would sign. There is no point in him earning £400k a week at Spurs when he could earn pretty much that amount anyway but at a club that prioritises the football side of things and pushes to win trophies. We need to accept that Kane is leaving and we need to do so thanking him for his service and welcoming him whenever he comes back to the lane, irrespective of who it is with.

Kane will know just as well as any fan that this club has no interest in investing in the short term for success. He is 27 and he only had the short term for his career. Why stay here and wait 15 years for the mythical NFL franchise that will never even up finances with the bigger clubs anyway.

He's seen Liverpool go from a team that finished behind us year after year finishing as low as 7th at their worst. Morph after investing ambitiously and win themselves a league title and Champions League. Sadly he knows that's not going to happen here so why stay?

 

[billyiddo]

If you install Mourinho you HAVE to buy the players he needs otherwise it doesn't work. He isn't a development coach and never had been. He wants MEN who know who they are and what they do.

We had neither the squad for him or a willingness to buy the players he needed. That first January when he pleaded for a striker sand was given Bergwijn instead said it all.

J Jose was always the wrong appointment but we didn't even try to make it work.

Trouble is the reason he got the job was because he was telling Levy the squad was up to it - taking the Covid situation in to account i think it's hard to say we didn't invest in the team last summer, with a number of positions that needed strengthening a 60m+ (Diaz) or 40m+ (Skriniar) CB on top was probably just a stretch too far - had he done better with what was available (which i think most would agree was possible) then he would have likely gotten his CB this summer and we'd be looking to build on a good season - the fact is he didn't and so we aren't

 

[Raziel]

On the flip side, how long are you willing to give ENIC to see their plans come to fruition? Would you be willing to give them another 20 years for example? If we are sat here in another 20 years with say one more trophy, would you be happy with that? What is the threshold for saying enough is enough or what is the safe word? For example if we slide into mid table like Arsenal for 2-4 years would you be happy to persist with ENIC?

I think it’s just natural for some that after 20 years they think it may be time for a change. 20 years is not an insignificant amount of time. Hell, even 10 years is a long time in football. They’ve had double that.

They have three years to show that the increased income that you could expect from Stadium, NFL, non football activities are being leveraged for on the pitch success.

Again, we have been in Europe for 12 years running and still have a shot at it this season, so lets not pretend we are a midtable side yet (if it comes, then lets say it).

But I'll say it now for reference later, I believe they will spend that money, I believe we will continue to progress and that 1 or 2 trophies will come (not more, the game is still too rigged) and it still won't be good enough for some supporters ..

comes down to this mate, do I want trophies and success for Spurs? = yes, absolutely
can I see a plan in ENIC that "might" work = I think so
does winning trophies or not change my support for Spurs = no

So I chose not to believe the world is burning, the club has regressed irrevocably, everyone is leaving, no one wants the manager job at £15m/yr, etc, etc.

 

[Raziel]

Trouble is the reason he got the job was because he was telling Levy the squad was up to it - taking the Covid situation in to account i think it's hard to say we didn't invest in the team last summer, with a number of positions that needed strengthening a 60m+ (Diaz) or 40m+ (Skriniar) CB on top was probably just a stretch too far - had he done better with what was available (which i think most would agree was possible) then he would have likely gotten his CB this summer and we'd be looking to build on a good season

This exactly and this is the problem with evaluating Levy/ENIC

- Does a single fudging supporter believe we shouldn't be 5 points better off this season (with this exact same squad)? then the squad is good enough for top 4
- Some combination of not playing Sanchez & Dier so much, or playing Bale & Dele more or just taking the handbrake off a little, Jose still has job

They have to take the blame for Jose not working (red flags and all that), but lets not pretend this squad wasn't capable of more.

 

[billyiddo]

Actually historically they were 4th behind Bilbao until their resurgence after Cerezo took over.
Historically we'd won the 4th most honours in England when ENIC took over (we're now down to 6th).

You know very well that's more to do with 2 Lottery winning clubs entering the fray than anything Enic have failed to do.

Wonder how successful Atletico would be if there were an additional 3 richer clubs than them alongside Barca & Real to compete with

 

[AdamB]

They have three years to show that the increased income that you could expect from Stadium, NFL, non football activities are being leveraged for on the pitch success.

Again, we have been in Europe for 12 years running and still have a shot at it this season, so lets not pretend we are a midtable side yet (if it comes, then lets say it).

But I'll say it now for reference later, I believe they will spend that money, I believe we will continue to progress and that 1 or 2 trophies will come (not more, the game is still too rigged) and it still won't be good enough for some supporters ..

comes down to this mate, do I want trophies and success for Spurs? = yes, absolutely
can I see a plan in ENIC that "might" work = I think so
does winning trophies or not change my support for Spurs = no

So I chose not to believe the world is burning, the club has regressed irrevocably, everyone is leaving, no one wants the manager job at £15m/yr, etc, etc.

Yes, good post. ENIC has moved the club forward over their time and hopefully in 5-10 years the debt load will be lower and revenue higher, which will make us more competitive on teh pitch again. Those things cant happen overnight though.

We can still progress without Kane:
Step 1 is getting in a manager who can install a vision and system over pre-season
Step 2 is having a decent transfer window to make the team less reliant on 1 star player, bring in some young up and coming players, and shore up the defence.

I agree that we'll spend the Kane money if he goes - the ESL debacle will ensure pressure is on Levy to do so. It all seems like a mess at the moment given that we dont have a manager - we need to get that done in the next couple weeks and then hopefull there will be a bit more clarity for Spurs fans

 

[Bishop]

Helps them immensely that they get guarantee of CL money every season

They are guaranteed due to their success and not for any other reason.

Trouble is the reason he got the job was because he was telling Levy the squad was up to it - taking the Covid situation in to account i think it's hard to say we didn't invest in the team last summer, with a number of positions that needed strengthening a 60m+ (Diaz) or 40m+ (Skriniar) CB on top was probably just a stretch too far - had he done better with what was available (which i think most would agree was possible) then he would have likely gotten his CB this summer and we'd be looking to build on a good season - the fact is he didn't and so we aren't

If you can't invest to the level Mourinho requires then don't hire him. If I can tell you this before we ever signed him then the chairman should also be able to work that one out. It's his day job and just a hobbyist interest for me.

Jose was brick don't get me wrong I knew it would fail before he even started. My issue is the chairman couldn't see that. Don't you find that concerning?