Coronavirus

[Mikey10]

Eh??
Which person on that list is a 'covid denier'? Are you conflating 'covid deniers' with 'lockdown skeptics' here?

As you say, you cannot go into the science of the spike protein, the basis of science of how mRNA/RNA vaccines have been attempted to be developed up to now and believe there is no virus.

I totally see how one can be very much up on the science of the spike proteins and believe that the general response by many governments has been overly heavy handed and often dystopian though. I suspect all the people you believe are 'covid deniers' actually fall into this group. Happy for you to prove me wrong though.

Recent articles in the UK also give me reason to believe that there well may be something to their concerns:

https://web.archive.org/web/2021092.../24/analysis-thousands-usual-dying-not-covid/

"While focus remains firmly fixed on Covid-19, a second health crisis is quietly emerging in Britain. Since the beginning of July, there have been thousands of excess deaths that were not caused by coronavirus.

According to health experts, this is highly unusual for the summer. Although excess deaths are expected during the winter months, when cold weather and seasonal infections combine to place pressure on the NHS, summer generally sees a lull.

This year is a worrying outlier.

According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), since July 2 there have been 9,619 excess deaths in England and Wales, of which 48 per cent (4,635) were not caused by Covid-19.

So if all these extra people are not dying from coronavirus, what is killing them?

Data from Public Health England (PHE) shows that during that period there were 2,103 extra death registrations with ischemic heart disease, 1,552 with heart failure, as well as an extra 760 deaths with cerebrovascular diseases such as stroke and aneurysm and 3,915 with other circulatory diseases.

Acute and chronic respiratory infections were also up with 3,416 more mentions on death certificates than expected since the start of July, while there have been 1,234 extra urinary system disease deaths, 324 with cirrhosis and liver disease and 1,905 with diabetes.

Alarmingly, many of these conditions saw the biggest drops in diagnosis in 2020, as the NHS struggled to cope with the pandemic."


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mystery-rise-in-heart-attacks-from-blocked-arteries-m253drrnf

"Health experts have been left baffled by a big rise in a common and potentially fatal type of heart attack in the west of Scotland.
During the summer there was a 25 per cent rise in the number of people rushed to the Golden Jubilee National Hospital in Clydebank with partially blocked arteries cutting blood supply to the heart.
Typically the centre, which is the largest of its kind in the UK and treats people from five health board areas, receives 240 patients a month suffering with this form of heart attack, but this rose to more than 300 over May, June and July of this year. Doctors have searched for a pattern among patients to determine if less access to health checks in the pandemic or a history of Covid-19 infection may explain it but have found no obvious trend."

Heart attacks rise after 18 months of lockdown in Scotland?

That’s right up there with the ‘news’ that bears brick in the woods.

 

[glasgowspur]

Eh??
Which person on that list is a 'covid denier'? Are you conflating 'covid deniers' with 'lockdown skeptics' here?

As you say, you cannot go into the science of the spike protein, the basis of science of how mRNA/RNA vaccines have been attempted to be developed up to now and believe there is no virus.

I totally see how one can be very much up on the science of the spike proteins and believe that the general response by many governments has been overly heavy handed and often dystopian though. I suspect all the people you believe are 'covid deniers' actually fall into this group. Happy for you to prove me wrong though.

Recent articles in the UK also give me reason to believe that there well may be something to their concerns:

https://web.archive.org/web/2021092.../24/analysis-thousands-usual-dying-not-covid/

"While focus remains firmly fixed on Covid-19, a second health crisis is quietly emerging in Britain. Since the beginning of July, there have been thousands of excess deaths that were not caused by coronavirus.

According to health experts, this is highly unusual for the summer. Although excess deaths are expected during the winter months, when cold weather and seasonal infections combine to place pressure on the NHS, summer generally sees a lull.

This year is a worrying outlier.

According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), since July 2 there have been 9,619 excess deaths in England and Wales, of which 48 per cent (4,635) were not caused by Covid-19.

So if all these extra people are not dying from coronavirus, what is killing them?

Data from Public Health England (PHE) shows that during that period there were 2,103 extra death registrations with ischemic heart disease, 1,552 with heart failure, as well as an extra 760 deaths with cerebrovascular diseases such as stroke and aneurysm and 3,915 with other circulatory diseases.

Acute and chronic respiratory infections were also up with 3,416 more mentions on death certificates than expected since the start of July, while there have been 1,234 extra urinary system disease deaths, 324 with cirrhosis and liver disease and 1,905 with diabetes.

Alarmingly, many of these conditions saw the biggest drops in diagnosis in 2020, as the NHS struggled to cope with the pandemic."


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mystery-rise-in-heart-attacks-from-blocked-arteries-m253drrnf

"Health experts have been left baffled by a big rise in a common and potentially fatal type of heart attack in the west of Scotland.
During the summer there was a 25 per cent rise in the number of people rushed to the Golden Jubilee National Hospital in Clydebank with partially blocked arteries cutting blood supply to the heart.
Typically the centre, which is the largest of its kind in the UK and treats people from five health board areas, receives 240 patients a month suffering with this form of heart attack, but this rose to more than 300 over May, June and July of this year. Doctors have searched for a pattern among patients to determine if less access to health checks in the pandemic or a history of Covid-19 infection may explain it but have found no obvious trend."

If excess deaths are expected, how are they excess?
I have real issues with how this all being reported.
Death and its patterns are extremely complicated and no one totally understands it.
Some of the reporting lazt year was criminal.
Average deaths are worked out 7 years (84 months) primarily because of the amount of variables. To take a three or four month period and report it as trend is ridiculous.

 

[glasgowspur]

1. Covid IS causing the excess deaths [emoji85]

2. The heart attacks data - up from 240 to 300 a month in just one part of Scotland…it’s hardly evidence is it…


Use your head man! Or maybe not being vaccinated has affected your ability to be rational? [emoji3]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

So a 25% increase in heart attack is nothing, but a 10% increase in deaths over a year is a big deal?
A year in which the nhs was effectively closed for anything but extreme emergency.

 

[SpurMeUp]

So a 25% increase in heart attack is nothing, but a 10% increase in deaths over a year is a big deal?
A year in which the nhs was effectively closed for anything but extreme emergency.

You are comparing national data with a paltry 240 people in one ward of Scotland - Clydebank - yes it is not significant or a big deal. If it was across the UK then we could start looking closer. But otherwise, this is just scaremongering nonsense.

 

[scaramanga]

Heart attacks rise after 18 months of lockdown in Scotland?

That’s right up there with the ‘news’ that bears brick in the woods.

It is slightly surprising - I didn't think there was anyone left up there who hadn't had a heart attack.

 

[MKSpur]

It is slightly surprising - I didn't think there was anyone left up there who hadn't had a heart attack.

 

[glasgowspur]

You are comparing national data with a paltry 240 people in one ward of Scotland - Clydebank - yes it is not significant or a big deal. If it was across the UK then we could start looking closer. But otherwise, this is just scaremongering nonsense.

I think you are missing my point, the reporting of it all is scaremongering nonsense. Probably my fault for not constructing my post properly.
Its in medical department interests to highlight these reports, increases their funding.
Clydebank has one of the worst health records in Glasgow, which is one if not they worst in the UK.
None of this should be a shock to anyone.

 

[AuroRaman]

I keep reading scaremongering as scaramongering. A bit like reading vacation as vaccination.

 

[glorygloryeze]

1. Covid IS causing the excess deaths [emoji85]

2. The heart attacks data - up from 240 to 300 a month in just one part of Scotland…it’s hardly evidence is it…


Use your head man! Or maybe not being vaccinated has affected your ability to be rational? [emoji3]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Perhaps you missed the first article i quoted..i'll quote again:


"While focus remains firmly fixed on Covid-19, a second health crisis is quietly emerging in Britain. Since the beginning of July, there have been thousands of excess deaths that were not caused by coronavirus.

According to health experts, this is highly unusual for the summer. Although excess deaths are expected during the winter months, when cold weather and seasonal infections combine to place pressure on the NHS, summer generally sees a lull.

This year is a worrying outlier.

According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), since July 2 there have been 9,619 excess deaths in England and Wales, of which 48 per cent (4,635) were not caused by Covid-19.

So if all these extra people are not dying from coronavirus, what is killing them?

Data from Public Health England (PHE) shows that during that period there were 2,103 extra death registrations with ischemic heart disease, 1,552 with heart failure, as well as an extra 760 deaths with cerebrovascular diseases such as stroke and aneurysm and 3,915 with other circulatory diseases.

Acute and chronic respiratory infections were also up with 3,416 more mentions on death certificates than expected since the start of July, while there have been 1,234 extra urinary system disease deaths, 324 with cirrhosis and liver disease and 1,905 with diabetes.

Alarmingly, many of these conditions saw the biggest drops in diagnosis in 2020, as the NHS struggled to cope with the pandemic."

So conditions for which there was ACTUALLY A DROP IN DIAGNOSES in 2020 are now part of the excess deaths not linked to covid-19...as i say, food for thought...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Heart attacks rise after 18 months of lockdown in Scotland?

That’s right up there with the ‘news’ that bears brick in the woods.

Again, as above, you are ignoring the other England and Wales article. If Heart attacks and related diagnoses actually dropped during the previous year, why have they gone up more recently now we are out of lockdown etc?

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think you are missing my point, the reporting of it all is scaremongering nonsense. Probably my fault for not constructing my post properly.
Its in medical department interests to highlight these reports, increases their funding.
Clydebank has one of the worst health records in Glasgow, which is one if not they worst in the UK.
None of this should be a shock to anyone.

Interesting point re scaremongering for medical funding interests....should we go there? Probably not...

However, a place in Scotland getting worse in or of itself isn't a shock, but my point is that the increase in cases of heart attacks and other circulatory diseases is baffling some of the medical experts who usually find a a way to explain it...explaining it now is even more crucial given that the lockdown etc saw an actual DROP before this current increase...again food for thought..

 

[SpurMeUp]

Perhaps you missed the first article i quoted..i'll quote again:


"While focus remains firmly fixed on Covid-19, a second health crisis is quietly emerging in Britain. Since the beginning of July, there have been thousands of excess deaths that were not caused by coronavirus.

According to health experts, this is highly unusual for the summer. Although excess deaths are expected during the winter months, when cold weather and seasonal infections combine to place pressure on the NHS, summer generally sees a lull.

This year is a worrying outlier.

According to the Office for National Statistics (ONS), since July 2 there have been 9,619 excess deaths in England and Wales, of which 48 per cent (4,635) were not caused by Covid-19.

So if all these extra people are not dying from coronavirus, what is killing them?

Data from Public Health England (PHE) shows that during that period there were 2,103 extra death registrations with ischemic heart disease, 1,552 with heart failure, as well as an extra 760 deaths with cerebrovascular diseases such as stroke and aneurysm and 3,915 with other circulatory diseases.

Acute and chronic respiratory infections were also up with 3,416 more mentions on death certificates than expected since the start of July, while there have been 1,234 extra urinary system disease deaths, 324 with cirrhosis and liver disease and 1,905 with diabetes.

Alarmingly, many of these conditions saw the biggest drops in diagnosis in 2020, as the NHS struggled to cope with the pandemic."

So conditions for which there was ACTUALLY A DROP IN DIAGNOSES in 2020 are now part of the excess deaths not linked to covid-19...as i say, food for thought...

TL;dr maybe for you too?

With respect I’m not sure you read/understood half the things you’ve quoted.

Excess deaths are a measure of average and how far above normal deaths we are. It does not measure or breakdown causes of deaths.

It seems you’re saying both vaccines are causing excess deaths and that excess deaths are including all the people who died as a knocked on consequence of covid eg not getting NHS care.

All excess deaths measures are averages. Seeings as the main national health variable that has changed is covid, I’d suggest it is fair to say Covid is very likely the main reason for excess deaths now.

Unless you have some other sound logic?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[glorygloryeze]

TL;dr maybe for you too?

With respect I’m not sure you read/understood half the things you’ve quoted.

Excess deaths are a measure of average and how far above normal deaths we are. It does not measure or breakdown causes of deaths.

I know exactly how excess deaths work and are recorded thanks..

It seems you’re saying both vaccines are causing excess deaths and that excess deaths are including all the people who died as a knocked on consequence of covid eg not getting NHS care.

Erm, i think it's YOU saying this; what i have been saying is that there are some eminent scientists/doctors who are saying the new technology in the covid-19 vaccines is having some unintended consequences around heart and other circulatory-related illnesses/diseases and that perhaps this might be being seen in some of the non-Covid-related excess deaths we are seeing in the UK this summer..

All excess deaths measures are averages. Seeings as the main national health variable that has changed is covid, I’d suggest it is fair to say Covid is very likely the main reason for excess deaths now.

Unless you have some other sound logic?

Rather than going back and forth, let me simply ask you this:

Covid has been with us now for the majority of 2020 and still until now, why are we seeing increases of deaths in heart disease and other circulatory-related diseases in 2021 after an ACTUAL DROP of such deaths in 2020 (when like in 2021, Covid was also around)?

 

[SpurMeUp]

I know exactly how excess deaths work and are recorded thanks..



Erm, i think it's YOU saying this; what i have been saying is that there are some eminent scientists/doctors who are saying the new technology in the covid-19 vaccines is having some unintended consequences around heart and other circulatory-related illnesses/diseases and that perhaps this might be being seen in some of the non-Covid-related excess deaths we are seeing in the UK this summer..



Rather than going back and forth, let me simply ask you this:

Covid has been with us now for the majority of 2020 and still until now, why are we seeing increases of deaths in heart disease and other circulatory-related diseases in 2021 after an ACTUAL DROP of such deaths in 2020 (when like in 2021, Covid was also around)?

Okay so all those links and hyperbole amount to one thing: a few isolated peripheral people have speculated that vaccines may have an effect on circulatory diseases.

We know that in extremely rare instances the vaccines have caused circulatory issues, so it’s no great surprise some are quick to speculate in this area. Citing data from one area of Glasgow vs national data is very limited.

Essentially you’ll find what you wish to find. Those who want to find conspiracy and those that go down internet rabbit holes want to explore conspiracies. And I’m all for it. Just need to make sure it stacks up.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[glorygloryeze]

Okay so all those links and hyperbole amount to one thing: a few isolated peripheral people have speculated that vaccines may have an effect on circulatory diseases.

We know that in extremely rare instances the vaccines have caused circulatory issues, so it’s no great surprise some are quick to speculate in this area. Citing data from one area of Glasgow vs national data is very limited.

Essentially you’ll find what you wish to find. Those who want to find conspiracy and those that go down internet rabbit holes want to explore conspiracies. And I’m all for it. Just need to make sure it stacks up.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

That's life i guess; we all can often find "what we like" in news, data etc.

Let me ask you simply: IF what these scientists/doctors are saying/warning about is true, what do YOU think would be seen to make what they are saying "stack up"?

 

[markysimmo]

What are people making of these claims ??

https://twitter.com/x/status/1445833200165548038

 

[SpurMeUp]

That's life i guess; we all can often find "what we like" in news, data etc.

Let me ask you simply: IF what these scientists/doctors are saying/warning about is true, what do YOU think would be seen to make what they are saying "stack up"?

Data. And respected reports verifying it. Citing an increase from 250 to 300 heart attacks a month in Clydebank doesn't in any way constitute solid data to prove the idea. There may well be something in the theory. Who knows, some vaccines were associated with blood clots albeit in extremely rare instances. Isolated data and conjecture certainly don't prove anything.

Moreover, what is the aim? Vaccines have allowed us to open up and live relatively normal lives now. Even if there is a proven link whereby vaccines have a small impact on vascular diseases (highly unlikely anyway), covid vaccines have still allowed life to continue and saved many many more people's lives.

Of course, vaccines are not halo shining gifts from GHod (though you might be mistaken), they are fallible with potential side effects. The truth is, vaccines have saved lives for decades. Or have we been lied to over the years with no recourse?

Stay clear of the rabbit holes. So many other interesting things to get into!

 

[glorygloryeze]

Data. And respected reports verifying it. Citing an increase from 250 to 300 heart attacks a month in Clydebank doesn't in any way constitute solid data to prove the idea. There may well be something in the theory. Who knows, some vaccines were associated with blood clots albeit in extremely rare instances. Isolated data and conjecture certainly don't prove anything.

Moreover, what is the aim? Vaccines have allowed us to open up and live relatively normal lives now. Even if there is a proven link whereby vaccines have a small impact on vascular diseases (highly unlikely anyway), covid vaccines have still allowed life to continue and saved many many more people's lives.

Of course, vaccines are not halo shining gifts from GHod (though you might be mistaken), they are fallible with potential side effects. The truth is, vaccines have saved lives for decades. Or have we been lied to over the years with no recourse?

Stay clear of the rabbit holes. So many other interesting things to get into!

Data you say? Well the Telegraph article detailed such (funny you keep on mentioning the Clydebank article but NOT the Telegraph one that covered analysis of deaths across Britain).

Data you say? Well, the Government's Yellow Reporting scheme mentions data and over 1,600 reported dead as a result of having had the vaccine.

Data you say? Well, the European Database of suspected drug reaction (EudraVigilance) reported back in June 15,472 deaths and over 1 million injuries (half of these said to be 'serious').

I'm sure this is all just 'isolated' and 'conjecture' in your eyes so i wont bother to quote more sources, show even more actual data or detail how the vaccine use has morphed over the time (rushed through approval processes and initially said to just for the 'most vulnerable' to now being pushed on everyone via 'passports') as it will be just like other exchanges we've had previously, so i bid you good day

 

[SpurMeUp]

Data you say? Well the Telegraph article detailed such (funny you keep on mentioning the Clydebank article but NOT the Telegraph one that covered analysis of deaths across Britain).

Data you say? Well, the Government's Yellow Reporting scheme mentions data and over 1,600 reported dead as a result of having had the vaccine.

Data you say? Well, the European Database of suspected drug reaction (EudraVigilance) reported back in June 15,472 deaths and over 1 million injuries (half of these said to be 'serious').

I'm sure this is all just 'isolated' and 'conjecture' in your eyes so i wont bother to quote more sources, show even more actual data or detail how the vaccine use has morphed over the time (rushed through approval processes and initially said to just for the 'most vulnerable' to now being pushed on everyone via 'passports') as it will be just like other exchanges we've had previously, so i bid you good day

Maybe they are lying to us all, and it's all a big conspiracy. I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but make it about something where people have a motive, surely? These two links refute the two social media-derived stories you mentioned:

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-statistics-idUSL1N2LA28C

https://factcheck.afp.com/online-posts-mislead-covid-19-vaccinations-europe

Give a link to the Torygraph article and I check it out. Question for you: if the facts don't actually make sense, can you admit it's a load of old cobblers!?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Maybe they are lying to us all, and it's all a big conspiracy. I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but make it about something where people have a motive, surely? These two links refute the two social media-derived stories you mentioned:

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-statistics-idUSL1N2LA28C

https://factcheck.afp.com/online-posts-mislead-covid-19-vaccinations-europe

Give a link to the Torygraph article and I check it out. Question for you: if the facts don't actually make sense, can you admit it's a load of old cobblers!?

Haha, those factcheckers again eh?

Now imagine if they used the same approach about "missing context" to the daily covid case numbers or the daily covid deaths?

If you are using such factcheckers to claim facts related to any numbers 'don't make sense' given the above double-standard from Reuters about 'context' then that says everything about why this discussion should end.

Of course, if you are able to show me a link where Reuters make a point to 'put context' on the UK's daily covid case numbers and deaths (especially when they were used to justify lockdowns) then we can continue discussing...