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Coronavirus

Okay if you only have a polarised black and white viewpoint, you won't see nuances. Even members of our government admit they didn't get things right and were behind Germany etc. Every nation will experience some form of recession How dramatic it is depends on how they manage things. In the UK businesses can't get loans because banks are being asked to carry the risk. In Switzerland they have upto something like 220k available for small businesses with a small interest rate, and its guaranteed by the government. The small interest rate allows the banks to pay their costs, and any company that needs to pay suppliers etc is covered.

Yeh we were behind Germany on the measures health wise but they and Korea as your examples are heading for extreme recessions. Germany the light for all on here narrowly stayed out of recession last year without the virus and they are in the beloved EU too, so it’s not all milk and honey for them.

My view is not polarised I just don’t believe the others you put up as ways forward are always as great as you claim and often just thrown out to put down our own efforts.
 
They started off from a naturally better start, they have a huge concentration of wealth compared to having a low percentage of the worlds adult population.

It’s the wealthiest country in the world and home to a mere 8m people.

Hardly like for like.

...and they know how to keep that wealth by ensuring businesses are kept afloat. We've done okay and moved quickly with the furlough facility but some UK companies are being refused loans which will see some of them fold.
 
How many front line workers have we lost due to a lack of PPE? I'm sure, given your line of work, you will feel it's too many. Most would probably consider it an incredibly small number.

Given that the govt's economic response (short of not closing the economy) has been exemplary, I'd say that limited resources were focused in the correct areas.


I absolutely do. Viruses don't have agency, they don't direct their damage towards those less well defended. Preparing for a pandemic doesn't deter viruses from attacking.


I'm talking about the UK government basing their decision on that one (quite possibly flawed) paper. They were apparently on the right track until that was put in front of them.


The Swedes didn't use authoritarian rule to subjugate their electorate. They've already got it right.

About 50 so far. And yes, I do feel that is too many. If most would consider that its an incredibly small number, I'd probably tell them to shove it and head on out to a country where my services are more appreciated.

Not to mentioned that this is an incredibly vacuous view of the point of PPE. PPE is not simply to protect the health of the staff but because, right now, the hospital is the worst place to be to get Covid-19 and my colleagues and I are your biggest risk of getting it. The more we are exposed to it, even if we don't die, the longer it takes to control this in any meaningful way and the more we spread it to you.

Being similarly cynical, I could turn around and say that your own views are shaped partly by fear of what will happen to your business or businesses like yours. And I'm sure many would shrug and say oh well, other businesses will start up eventually.

Actually, most viruses do exactly that. They will attack those with weaker immune systems and attack and cause more damage to ecosystems which are less prepared. Its part of why there's still Polio in Nigeria for instance but not Greece. And when was the last war that Britain fought when our safety was at risk? Or the last time we needed our deterrent, considering in reality we sit under the USA anyway?

Right and I was saying that almost the entire world has followed some kind of lockdown at some point or another so it isn't just Ferguson, as much as you want to make it about this one man.
 
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Okay if you only have a polarised black and white viewpoint, you won't see nuances. Even members of our government admit they didn't get things right and were behind Germany etc. Every nation will experience some form of recession How dramatic it is depends on how they manage things. In the UK businesses can't get loans because banks are being asked to carry the risk. In Switzerland they have upto something like 220k available for small businesses with a small interest rate, and its guaranteed by the government. The small interest rate allows the banks to pay their costs, and any company that needs to pay suppliers etc is covered.

I don't think that's the case. The government is underwriting the loans up (to 80% I think). The problem as I have heard it from business owners interviewed is that actually getting the loans is proving difficult because banks are still asking for certain criteria to be met, such as revenue projections - which of course in a lock-down is difficult and if the businesses were confident of meeting the requisite criteria then they probably wouldn't be needing the loans anyway. It sounds like a bit of a catch-22, in some cases at least. Maybe not all. But I don't think it's accurate to say the banks are carrying (all) the risk.
 
Actually you didn’t say that at all, go back and read it, you can’t just pull your trick of saying one thing and manipulating that later on to make it look like you didn’t. In the whole forum you point towards me and one other for potential racist post, you came out and pointed towards us, that’s an accusation, you must have said it for a reason.

I find your attempt at an explanation totally out of line if I am honest. It’s clear what you were trying to say. Without any justification because I haven’t posted anything racist so why suggest that Danish or I may have?

Fact is I’m a man that is entitled to defend himself so if you think something say it in open like an equal man and allow me the chance to defend myself which I would do and would be entitled to. Silly covert comments are not cool.

Hold on, you quoted me in your post a page ago. There is no trick, as I said, IF anything had occurred I was sure you'd retract it. That is all. Get over it! I've been ignoring you bringing it up. But had to put it straight.
 
...and they know how to keep that wealth by ensuring businesses are kept afloat. We've done okay and moved quickly with the furlough facility but some UK companies are being refused loans which will see some of them fold.

I don't think that's the case. The government is underwriting the loans up (to 80% I think). The problem as I have heard it from business owners interviewed is that actually getting the loans is proving difficult because banks are still asking for certain criteria to be met, such as revenue projections - which of course in a lock-down is difficult and if the businesses were confident of meeting the requisite criteria then they probably wouldn't be needing the loans anyway. It sounds like a bit of a catch-22, in some cases at least. Maybe not all. But I don't think it's accurate to say the banks are carrying (all) the risk.

Yep the government relaxed the criteria so more is being accessed but as you say it’s slow because of the additional requirements but that is needed. Even in Switzerland it comes with huge conditions based on revenue and ability to pay back within 5 years.

Facts are wealth management isn’t about supporting businesses that were destined to fail before CV, that’s the key
 
Hold on, you quoted me in your post a page ago. There is no trick, as I said, IF anything had occurred I was sure you'd retract it. That is all. Get over it! I've been ignoring you bringing it up. But had to put it straight.

Because why bring our names into it at all? That’s an accusation, you can try and cover it with some kind of word craft but our names were not mentioned by the poster so why would you suggest that either of us had posted something racist?
 
I don't think that's the case. The government is underwriting the loans up (to 80% I think). The problem as I have heard it from business owners interviewed is that actually getting the loans is proving difficult because banks are still asking for certain criteria to be met, such as revenue projections - which of course in a lock-down is difficult and if the businesses were confident of meeting the requisite criteria then they probably wouldn't be needing the loans anyway. It sounds like a bit of a catch-22, in some cases at least. Maybe not all. But I don't think it's accurate to say the banks are carrying (all) the risk.

In Switzerland the government underwrites the loan fully, and all businesses are approved loans. The reason its not working here is the banks are on the line.

Most only take up 30-40k of the facility. The cost-benifit is so clear. Every business that goes bust costs the UK far more down the line than covering a few not being able to pay back the money.
 
Because why bring our names into it at all? That’s an accusation, you can try and cover it with some kind of word craft but our names were not mentioned by the poster so why would you suggest that either of us had posted something racist?

Because there was a discussion regarding colonialism, which was where the upset came from. And you were posting re. that. But I never said you were racist. Let's leave it there.
 
The PPE shortage/lack of planning is a serious mistake. This is not a particualrly hi-tech product and to organise distribution is not 'herculean' if you involve the right people. To letdown the people who are literally staring the virus in the face is akin to blowing the whistle as the troops go over the top.

The goverments lockdown approach was to protect the NHS and save lives. By all accounts (even NHS) this has worked, (not more than 80% ICU beds occupied in London over Easter, and only a few (19) treated at Nightingale.

Have we saved lives. We simply don't know. Have we cost lives. We simply dont know. At this stage caveat...some frontline workers deaths could have been prevented.

If every person who needed hospitalisation received the attention, skill and access to equipment that was needed....then by definition we did everything for them.

If someone is predisposed to dying from this virus then unfortunately all we have at the moment is to hide them from the virus. No other intervention is coming anytime quickly. So unless they 'hide' for 12/18months (while waiting for those interventions) the virus is still coming for them. So eg if 1000 people are predisposed, if they are front loaded or evenly spread over a longer time, bar a few extra months life, the result is the same.

The problem with treading heavily down (via lockdowns) on new cases is two fold, 1.if it goes on for too long other problems will be a by product of the draconian measures (not just the obvious economic blow up), 2. All of us are avoiding the virus, there is plenty of evidence (war ships, cruise ships, that town in Italy) to show that large sections of the population needn't have fear of catching the virus much in the same way as they don't swerve flu year in year out. Of course we are at the same time hindering the one natural defence we can develop that doesn't require science (beyond confirming immunity is obtained)...yep the dirty 'herd' word. Ironically the old/vulnerable persons friend.

An ideal situation when relaxing some lockdown measures is to keep the NHS at about 80% capacity, as i say as long as everyone who enters hospital has uncompromised care that is the best we can do. (Plus the PPE...Of course!)

The focus on deaths is possibly a logic trap, fair enough if all the old and vulnerable want to hide away for 12/18 months (imo many i think will not find that acceptable), then yes you will save them BUT the rest of the population obviously cant carry on under the current measures for too long, korea china germany have 'great' death rates now.....the deaths are still gonna come as we have no treatment beyond hiding, plus the reduction in transmission will affect their 'herd' progress. caveat....i know anti virals, respiration etc may improve as we understand more, so some hope.

Its like the virus is in the hallway and we're all hiding behind doors of the hallway, its bouncing off those doors waiting for one to open (even a little) and bang...its back finding hosts.

FWIW if antibody testing was reliable, i'd predict 20% (if not more) off people have had the virus already, judging by how contagious it is and some of the studies (London is just like a big cruise ship) i can't see how the spread isn't massive especially if we were late on a lock down.


I'd like to point out a caveat to the 'NHS isn't overwhelmed' line of thinking. Perhaps not quite in the Lombardy way we were seeing on the news. But we had two weeks on Italy and increased surge capacity accordingly. As I think I've mentioned previously, my own trust for example has done multiple measures:

-Stopped all surgeries, other than emergency life saving surgery
-Stopped almost all elective work in other specialties as well
-Cleared out the wards in preparation
-Set aa surge plan for our intensive care, in two phases. Phase one was to double, phase two was to triple IIRC. We're currently at about 91% occupancy rate of the doubled phase one capacity. This has involved multiple measures including closing down our neurosurgery ward completely and turning it into an intensive care (bad time to get a head injury needed surgery) and redeploying nurses and doctors from other specialties who are non specialists. It has also meant that the level 1 care (which essentially is supposed to mean 1:1 nursing) no longer exists and we are often nursing at 1:2-3 patients.
-Patients who would otherwise come to the intensive care are no longer being accepted in some cases

In some other hospitals, they've been using operating theatres as a satellite intensive care units already.

So in a way, we have been overwhelmed. But if you have cancer needing an operation right now, it's growing without any prospects of surgery. If you have a funny heart rhythm or blocked arteries and were due for an elective procedure, those have been cancelled and you'd just better hope you don't have a heart attack or go into VF/VT (or if you do, someone gets to you in time) during this time. You'd better hope you don't have a head injury in West London right now, as your options are significantly reduced. If you're a 78 year old who's otherwise fit and well and come into hospital with something else and end up needing intensive care support, you may no longer be able to go and, even if you do, at least part of your care will not be at the same level it usually is.

The above isn't a criticism of the government by the way. Just some pertinent information before some, not you, get a little bit too self congratulatory and decide it was all over the top.

Despite the aforementioned 2 week warning, our deaths (even though, as far as I can tell, we're often not counting community deaths) were, as of yesterday, tracking Italy's exactly.

I agree that we are in a brick situation. I agree that we don't know how this will all play out and we are currently deciding between having your right and leg arm cut off. I actually don't think there is a right or wrong answer as such in this, just answers which are more likely to be right and those more likely to be wrong. I think the one thing though that almost anyone reasonable would agree to, other than a couple of select nutters on here, is that it can't be allowed to rip through completely unimpeded as literally no health system can cope.
 
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Because there was a discussion regarding colonialism, which was where the upset came from. And you were posting re. that. But I never said you were racist. Let's leave it there.

There were plenty of posters in that conversation not just us two, for you to even just finger us for potential racism shows pretty clear where you were going with it. And unfortunately I won’t just “leave that there”

I’ve lived a long life like a lot of us suffering anti Semitic abuse in life so I know as much as the next man about racism and and not racist. I have very forthright head strong views but they are not racist.

You may think that someone not interested in taking responsibility for the British Empire hundreds of years after it happened is racism but I don’t, it’s not. You may think me being an advocate of immigration but also controlled immigration is racism, it’s not. You may even think me saying liberals are bigoted is racism, it’s not and I have met many so called liberals who held bigoted views, just look for Corbyn followers on twitter.

It was clear what you were saying in that post and frankly I find your so called explanation and lack of apology pathetic
 
There were plenty of posters in that conversation not just us two, for you to even just finger us for potential racism shows pretty clear where you were going with it. And unfortunately I won’t just “leave that there”

I’ve lived a long life like a lot of us suffering anti Semitic abuse in life so I know as much as the next man about racism and and not racist. I have very forthright head strong views but they are not racist.

Totally agree. I know you are not racist. Which is why I was sure if there was any misunderstanding you'd set it straight. Ironic and hilarious that you now want to cry about me supposedly accusing you of racism! Thanks for the entertainment.
 
Totally agree. I know you are not racist. Which is why I was sure if there was any misunderstanding you'd set it straight. Ironic and hilarious that you now want to cry about me supposedly accusing you of racism! Thanks for the entertainment.

So out of all the posters you just randomly plucked my name out? Yeh course especially as you said we would retract any racism, that’s hugely different to setting it straight
 
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Also im not retracting my claim of racism against a certain poster. He linked what i saw as an inflammatory teletext post from a snaring #cricket lasy about how great Ireland was doing compared to the uk like it was a Eurovision contest.

When i brought this up and how historically Ireland has asked for handouts from the uk government i was and i quote "being told the history of my own country"

For anyone to use the phrase my own country makes them akin to a daily mail reader and is an automatic fail.

Was also told in the same argument that people hating the brits and more importantly the English is to be expected because of the empire. Something not one person alive today had anything to do with. Yet when i mentioned that we are meant to forgive other countries for their dodgy pasts, that bloody stupid Goodwin's law thing gets brought up.

So yeah i called out what was previously a good poster as racist and i stand by it as racism as im always told is how the person receiving it feels. I felt that i and the country i live in was picked on and the fact that the poster unprompted brought up the empire confirms it to me.

I took the opportunity to end the conversation by putting him on ignore where he will stay for 12 months. I hope in the future he can get rid of the hate he feels for the English particularly as he oddly supports a English football team.
 
About 50 so far. And yes, I do feel that is too many. If most would consider that its an incredibly small number, I'd probably tell them to shove it and head on out to a country where my services are more appreciated.

Not to mentioned that this is an incredibly vacuous view of the point of PPE. PPE is not simply to protect the health of the staff but because, right now, the hospital is the worst place to be to get Covid-19 and my colleagues and I are your biggest risk of getting it. The more we are exposed to it, even if we don't die, the longer it takes to control this in any meaningful way and the more we spread it to you.

Being similarly cynical, I could turn around and say that your own views are shaped partly by fear of what will happen to your business or businesses like yours. And I'm sure many would shrug and say oh well, other businesses will start up eventually.

Actually, most viruses do exactly that. They will attack those with weaker immune systems and attack and cause more damage to ecosystems which are less prepared. Its part of why there's still Polio in Nigeria for instance but not Greece. And when was the last war that Britain fought when our safety was at risk? Or the last time we needed our deterrent, considering in reality we sit under the USA anyway?

Right and I was saying that almost the entire world has followed some kind of lockdown at some point or another so it isn't just Ferguson, as much as you want to make it about this one man.

Just out of interest and not that it makes a difference but is PPE full proof against Covid-19?

And this isn’t meant as an argument to defend the government it’s not as I accept that it’s been poor on PPE I’m just interested to see if PPE is full proof?

I imagine there would be some casualties from frontline staff as a nature of the job? Almost like line of duty? Again that’s not a defence or an argument I am honestly just curious to what would be the potential natural casualty list from being in the most contagious of environments, there must be an element of that?
 
Mate look after yourself your doing a wonderful job and i hope you and your family are well.

Echo this BTW, we have some great chats and a difference of views Hooty baby but nothing but respect to you and your colleagues.

I’m keen to make sure now that you understand that any conversations on here with Hoots are purely a POV and never meant with any ill feeling, I find the convos eye opening and interesting even if people do think I’m a racist.
 
When all this ends I truly believe the end game will be pretty much equal country to country in terms of what most will judge this on, death toll. Give or take here and there and variations of say density of population versus financial clout etc I think the world will be at an equal standing.

Maybe the US will be the stand out because despite the world knowing what they know today they are saying lockdown is against their rights which is odd, you can’t tell those people what to do.

Mate.
In order to properly evaluate the US it is important that you recognize how big it is versus how many states have taken their own
action and ignored the Fed clowns. California was in shelter before most places. The nutters protesting? A spec of dust.
 
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