Circus ManUnitus - Nobody's At The Wheel

[Bedfordspurs]

I think we had a roughly ten year period of the club getting its act together post the 03-04 season where he became very consistent top 6 finishers. We’ve then had a period post Poch where we’ve been lucky to make the top 6. The bit in the middle, is him.

We’ve always signed players with potential in that period, and we’d always fallen just short of making that next step. I find it hard to believe that it was just coincidence that all of Walker, Vertoghen, Dembele, Dier, Rose, Lamela, Eriksen, Kane, Son, Dele, Trippier, Davies, all just so happened to reach an elite level or close to it during his time with us. Hell, Winks, Sissoko, Mason, Bentaleb, and others were either plucked from the academy and became important pieces or reached heights with us they never would again.

It isn’t as if we didn’t have talented players before, but one man created something that made each of them better, true whole greater than the sum of the parts stuff. It did need everything to align, but I think that’s true of any manager, anywhere. As it relates to United, many good managers have been chewed up because things did not align.

I think as a club, it pains me to say it but the DNA is probably the closest Poch fit there is. Stylistically he is the closest to Fergie. A figurehead, a father figure, someone who can let mavericks shine but creates enough structure behind them to be solid. Someone that uses a core of young players to create a culture. I think he’ll do a great job there so long as Ratcliffe doesn’t make it impossible.

We have never had a team where the players were constantly talked about as being the very best around
We had (and Poch was a huge part of this)
The World Cup winning goalkeeper who has been top tier for most of his career
For a few seasons IMO the best full back pairing in the world
Jan and Toby… and that’s just the defence
We had moussa who many say is the best they have played with and against in that era
Kane, dele, son, eras.

Every single player there imo if available now would be best the best in this league in their position (Halland would have a say of course)

But we as a club have never had that collective of high quality and high performing players at the same time before or after

We had world class players of course but not at that level and quantity

It’s why we we’re the best side for 2 years but again, timing being what it is, and mistakes being made too im sure, meant that side didn’t win the trophy it merited on paper

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What they need is a striker, say Solanke for £60m…

Love Poch, great man and manager, but sadly have to really hope he fails and gets a quick exit.

They have a great young striker in Sesko who is never fit

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

We have never had a team where the players were constantly talked about as being the very best around
We had (and Poch was a huge part of this)
The World Cup winning goalkeeper who has been top tier for most of his career
For a few seasons IMO the best full back pairing in the world
Jan and Toby… and that’s just the defence
We had moussa who many say is the best they have played with and against in that era
Kane, dele, son, eras.

Every single player there imo if available now would be best the best in this league in their position (Halland would have a say of course)

But we as a club have never had that collective of high quality and high performing players at the same time before or after

We had world class players of course but not at that level and quantity

It’s why we we’re the best side for 2 years but again, timing being what it is, and mistakes being made too im sure, meant that side didn’t win the trophy it merited on paper

I agree with you, I just think Poch was the reason they all reached that level at the same time. It was culture, standards, development, motivation, belief in something greater together. I would argue it was the same job Fergie did at United.

Has there even been a club before or since that just so happens to have a group of high potential players all hit an elite level all at the same time? I really think what Poch did, in the competitive environment of the PL, 86 points, most goals scored least conceded etc, it’s an outrageous achievement. Maintaining top 4 while in a temporary home and barely in the market, again incredible.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I agree with you, I just think Poch was the reason they all reached that level at the same time. It was culture, standards, development, motivation, belief in something greater together. I would argue it was the same job Fergie did at United.

Has there even been a club before or since that just so happens to have a group of high potential players all hit an elite level all at the same time? I really think what Poch did, in the competitive environment of the PL, 86 points, most goals scored least conceded etc, it’s an outrageous achievement. Maintaining top 4 while in a temporary home and barely in the market, again incredible.

That possible
I don’t think it’s certain though
And Fergie made the right calls at some point to get his team over the line with a trophy win
If he had done something similar elsewhere it would be more certain for sure
He was starting to do a very good job at Chelsea for them sacked him and that may have been a good measure

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

That possible
I don’t think it’s certain though
And Fergie made the right calls at some point to get his team over the line with a trophy win
If he had done something similar elsewhere it would be more certain for sure
He was starting to do a very good job at Chelsea for them sacked him and that may have been a good measure

I think Poch just wanted a little more control over the football plan at Chelsea than they were willing to give. Probably would have proved it out there otherwise, and I think will prove it out at United as long as Ratcliffe, or this weird ‘Ratcliffe wanted Howe, the Glazer’s chose Poch’ doesn’t ruin everything before it starts.

 

[Raziel]

I think we had a roughly ten year period of the club getting its act together post the 03-04 season where he became very consistent top 6 finishers. We’ve then had a period post Poch where we’ve been lucky to make the top 6. The bit in the middle, is him.

We’ve always signed players with potential in that period, and we’d always fallen just short of making that next step. I find it hard to believe that it was just coincidence that all of Walker, Vertoghen, Dembele, Dier, Rose, Lamela, Eriksen, Kane, Son, Dele, Trippier, Davies, all just so happened to reach an elite level or close to it during his time with us. Hell, Winks, Sissoko, Mason, Bentaleb, and others were either plucked from the academy and became important pieces or reached heights with us they never would again.

It isn’t as if we didn’t have talented players before, but one man created something that made each of them better, true whole greater than the sum of the parts stuff. It did need everything to align, but I think that’s true of any manager, anywhere. As it relates to United, many good managers have been chewed up because things did not align.

I think as a club, it pains me to say it but the DNA is probably the closest Poch fit there is. Stylistically he is the closest to Fergie. A figurehead, a father figure, someone who can let mavericks shine but creates enough structure behind them to be solid. Someone that uses a core of young players to create a culture. I think he’ll do a great job there so long as Ratcliffe doesn’t make it impossible.

I don't think it's that simple (could be wrong)

- We don't know if Poch is the guy from the CL final (8 years ago)
- Glazers/Ineos are far worse than anything ENIC/Levy threw at Poch
- The PL was easier back then, bottom sides were trash.
- Too many hangover players

Just as a team fit, doesn't have the FBs, doesn't have the legs in midfield, and Mbeumo & Cunha are good players but not involved for 90 mins.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I don't think it's that simple (could be wrong)

- We don't know if Poch is the guy from the CL final (8 years ago)
- Glazers/Ineos are far worse than anything ENIC/Levy threw at Poch
- The PL was easier back then, bottom sides were trash.
- Too many hangover players

Just as a team fit, doesn't have the FBs, doesn't have the legs in midfield, and Mbeumo & Cunha are good players but not involved for 90 mins.

I don’t know why Poch wouldn’t be that guy. I think he is simply a top manager who has incredible leadership skills, and has shown himself to be adaptable to different contexts. But I agree that every manager needs alignment at their club to be truly successful too. He’s not a miracle worker without that, but I do think he’s extremely special and somehow under rated.

Post Spurs he’s left PSG after they tried to shoehorn in 3 superstars who wouldn’t defend, and yet he managed it. Chelsea he managed to avoid being sacked and results were on a massive upswing, but they wanted more of a patsy. And then USA was also going very well until the leader of the free world decided to create controversy where it wasn’t necessary, and ruined the attitude he had built up.

I think he’ll do well at United. Definitely needs some quick reinforcements. If this whole Glazer / Ratcliffe thing isn’t doomed from the beginning, he’ll do well.

Lemmens

Dorgu / Shaw
De Ligt / Yoro
Maguire / Heaven
Dalot

Mainoo / Tielemans
Baleba
Fernandes

Mbuemo
Lacey / Amad
Cunha

Is a solid team to get to January with. Defence is horrific and really he needs depth all over. But Fernandes can be his Eriksen, Mbuemo can be his Son, Baleba his Wanyama.

Edit - just looked at their squad and I forgot about Martinez, Mazaraoui, Mount, Santos, and Rashford. I think Sesko and Uguarte are injured more long term, but there are some players there,

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I don't think it's that simple (could be wrong)

- We don't know if Poch is the guy from the CL final (8 years ago)
- Glazers/Ineos are far worse than anything ENIC/Levy threw at Poch
- The PL was easier back then, bottom sides were trash.
- Too many hangover players

Just as a team fit, doesn't have the FBs, doesn't have the legs in midfield, and Mbeumo & Cunha are good players but not involved for 90 mins.

Also PL was easier in 2017 for sure, and yet we challenged for the title twice in a row with only one other main competitor each time, Leicester and Chelsea who had no Europe that season. If it was easy to challenge for the PL, other clubs could also have tried to be consistent like we were, but it was us until the refusal to refresh the squad took hold.

 

[Raziel]

I don’t know why Poch wouldn’t be that guy. I think he is simply a top manager who has incredible leadership skills, and has shown himself to be adaptable to different contexts. But I agree that every manager needs alignment at their club to be truly successful too. He’s not a miracle worker without that, but I do think he’s extremely special and somehow under rated.

Post Spurs he’s left PSG after they tried to shoehorn in 3 superstars who wouldn’t defend, and yet he managed it. Chelsea he managed to avoid being sacked and results were on a massive upswing, but they wanted more of a patsy. And then USA was also going very well until the leader of the free world decided to create controversy where it wasn’t necessary, and ruined the attitude he had built up.

I think he’ll do well at United. Definitely needs some quick reinforcements. If this whole Glazer / Ratcliffe thing isn’t doomed from the beginning, he’ll do well.

Lemmens

Dorgu / Shaw
De Ligt / Yoro
Maguire / Heaven
Dalot

Mainoo / Tielemans
Baleba
Fernandes

Mbuemo
Lacey / Amad
Cunha

Is a solid team to get to January with. Defence is horrific and really he needs depth all over. But Fernandes can be his Eriksen, Mbuemo can be his Son, Baleba his Wanyama.

Edit - just looked at their squad and I forgot about Martinez, Mazaraoui, Mount, Santos, and Rashford. I think Sesko and Uguarte are injured more long term, but there are some players there,

Everyone bolded needs to be moved on (that's 8 at least)

The defense is a disaster, Mbeumo doesn't work hard enough (not involved enough) to be his Son, and Baleba needs help in midfield, Tielemans/Mainoo is slow and lack legs.

Can he improve them? sure, but without patience, expectation resets and real investments, it won't go that far.

 

[Kandi1977]

That's a shame. Wanted him to keep steering them towards relegation. A new manager might be the kick up the backside their players need, although as many have pointed out, their problems are much bigger than just the manager/players.

We all know Poch isn't a quick fix type of coach. He might get them more difficult to beat, but given what he has to work with in that defense, I'm not so sure.
They aren't as bad as their position says, but that squad is such a mess that they are mid table at best.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Everyone bolded needs to be moved on (that's 8 at least)

The defense is a disaster, Mbeumo doesn't work hard enough (not involved enough) to be his Son, and Baleba needs help in midfield, Tielemans/Mainoo is slow and lack legs.

Can he improve them? sure, but without patience, expectation resets and real investments, it won't go that far.

I don’t disagree, it’s definitely not going to be pure Poch with those players. But they also aren’t as bad as they have been showing either, much like ours under Frank / Tudor.

I think it’s the perfect job for him as long as he is backed enough and Ratcliffe steers clear.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Also PL was easier in 2017 for sure, and yet we challenged for the title twice in a row with only one other main competitor each time, Leicester and Chelsea who had no Europe that season. If it was easy to challenge for the PL, other clubs could also have tried to be consistent like we were, but it was us until the refusal to refresh the squad took hold.

Will be interesting if they don’t make signings in January (they do have PSR issues I believe)
How he addresses that
They have to shift players that they have really struggled to sell
He really didn’t address it clearly here to tow whatever line was agreed and united fans won’t wait (most seem underwhelmed by him)

 

[glasgowspur]

We have never had a team where the players were constantly talked about as being the very best around
We had (and Poch was a huge part of this)
The World Cup winning goalkeeper who has been top tier for most of his career
For a few seasons IMO the best full back pairing in the world
Jan and Toby… and that’s just the defence
We had moussa who many say is the best they have played with and against in that era
Kane, dele, son, eras.

Every single player there imo if available now would be best the best in this league in their position (Halland would have a say of course)

But we as a club have never had that collective of high quality and high performing players at the same time before or after

We had world class players of course but not at that level and quantity

It’s why we we’re the best side for 2 years but again, timing being what it is, and mistakes being made too im sure, meant that side didn’t win the trophy it merited on paper

Jan and Toby couldn't hold down their natural positions in international football, along with dembele they had a team with Eden hazard, one of the best players in the world at the time, kompany and courtious, kdb and others. Achieved the square root of hee haw.

Kane, dele and walker played in a fine England squad, hee haw to show for it.

There's a lot more to it than just throwing together good players.

Yes we had all those players, but we also had a fair few of much lesser ability.

There's no doubt that there was a synergy with Poch, the players and the club in general, it's not luck and for me our success in that period is written off all too easily.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Jan and Toby couldn't hold down their natural positions in international football, along with dembele they had a team with Eden hazard, one of the best players in the world at the time, kompany and courtious, kdb and others. Achieved the square root of hee haw.

Kane, dele and walker played in a fine England squad, hee haw to show for it.

There's a lot more to it than just throwing together good players.

Yes we had all those players, but we also had a fair few of much lesser ability.

There's no doubt that there was a synergy with Poch, the players and the club in general, it's not luck and for me our success in that period is written off all too easily.

Jan and Toby were used as full backs because they have no other options at international level at full backs until later
They were as good as the guys playing at CB… as seen by their league and European form

I’ve never said it was luck
But ahh manager getting the best young striker on the planet is gonna have a head start
Then add in the most dominant CM in the country (who people didn’t realise was as good)
The French captain at GK
And the marvellous Dutch twins at cb (yes he did bring in Toby)
Your spine is elite
But as a manager you have to maximise that
And he did
I don’t see any players in that United side who would get near to Pochs spurs side
If Poch does 3 seasons at United and makes them genuinely top tier again he would have shown Tottenham wasn’t a one off

 

[glasgowspur]

Jan and Toby were used as full backs because they have no other options at international level at full backs until later
They were as good as the guys playing at CB… as seen by their league and European form

I’ve never said it was luck
But ahh manager getting the best young striker on the planet is gonna have a head start
Then add in the most dominant CM in the country (who people didn’t realise was as good)
The French captain at GK
And the marvellous Dutch twins at cb (yes he did bring in Toby)
Your spine is elite
But as a manager you have to maximise that
And he did
I don’t see any players in that United side who would get near to Pochs spurs side
If Poch does 3 seasons at United and makes them genuinely top tier again he would have shown Tottenham wasn’t a one off

I don't think I mentioned luck.
Yes we had an elite spine, unfortunately we were competing against clubs with elite squads.
Utd were well on the way down by the time Poch had his best team, not sure any of them would get into our team now.
If Poch (or any manager in the foreseeable future) does three seasons at utd they'll be a miracle worker.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't think I mentioned luck.
Yes we had an elite spine, unfortunately we were competing against clubs with elite squads.
Utd were well on the way down by the time Poch had his best team, not sure any of them would get into our team now.
If Poch (or any manager in the foreseeable future) does three seasons at utd they'll be a miracle worker.

Your last paragraph said “it’s not luck for me”
And it definitely wasnt
Right place, right time, right people
Said it loads that pochs gift wasn’t on the pitch as much as uniting the club off the pitch
That elevates any team and I’ve seen that rarely anywhere
Klopp created the cult at Pool
Pep for sure everywhere
Mou did it it at inter and Chelsea
Arteta is kind of doing it
But if you get the collective right you are so much better overall

 

[Robspur12]

And who exactly has Poch taken up a level or achieved quantifiable success with since? Just reinforces @Bedfordspurs point that it's about timing as much as anything - he was great for us, but it's not like he's gone elsewhere and hit great heights to reinforce the point he's one of the top managers.

I liked Poch, and said on here some time ago I didn't fully appreciate the job he did at Spurs at the time. But there's a reason why he's coaching the USA and why Man U who have been searching for managers many times in recent years have only plumped for Poch once they are at their lowest point in modern history....

That is a little harsh. United plumped for Poch at different times in their history. He talks, about them wanting him when he was at PSG but the owners didn’t let him negotiate whereas Ajax’s owners did give Ten Hag the opportunity. He took over at Chelsea when they were an absolute basket case club ( still are) and stabilised them, got them back into Europe.

And I keep reading the stars aligned for him with the quality he inherited. That ignores the fact that in his final season he achieved top 4 and the Champions league final with a midfield anchored by Sissoko and Harry Winks, and a first team squad consisting of Dele Alli, who no manager since has gotten anything out of, Lucas Moura and a crocked Victor Wanyama.