Circus ManUnitus - Nobody's At The Wheel

[Raziel]

There is certainly a stubbornness about Wenger and some things he is unwilling to change. But is refusing to demand £150m for players and then asking for another £150m because it isn't working really a weakness? Wenger is operating at Ar5ena1 the way Levy expects his managers to operate at Spurs, within the means of the club. When Wenger leaves it will be interesting. Will they have a temporary decline like United, with a spacegoat like Moyes, or will the owners finally decide to open the cheque book and get a van Gaal?

I think both United and Scum will struggle for some time to come, I really believe LVG will end in tears sooner than later, and neither will be in City/Chel53a league (United had to spend $200M+ to get close, and still have huge gaps, Cheat$ki will just go spend another 150M and put distance again). Manure (even under SAF) and Scum made a fatal mistake in letting Chel53a & City build up so much better squads than them.

Re previous point about Wenger, it's not about the cost of the buys, it's the application. If the Ozil money had been spend on a Keeper, a CB & a DM (and yes they could have), they would have been much more of a threat last season.

 

[Neymar]

I think both United and Scum will struggle for some time to come, I really believe LVG will end in tears sooner than later, and neither will be in City/Chel53a league (United had to spend $200M+ to get close, and still have huge gaps, Cheat$ki will just go spend another 150M and put distance again). Manure (even under SAF) and Scum made a fatal mistake in letting Chel53a & City build up so much better squads than them.

I agree that arsenal and man utd will "struggle" for some time. struggle meaning that they will find it hard to win the title. but you can hardly blame them (and especially their managers) for letting chelsea and city build better squads than them. abramovic and mansour are using their clubs as massive pr machines. and are willing to spend (lose) huge amounts of money doing so.

Re previous point about Wenger, it's not about the cost of the buys, it's the application. If the Ozil money had been spend on a Keeper, a CB & a DM (and yes they could have), they would have been much more of a threat last season.

this is assuming that the keeper, cb and dm that they buy fit seemlessly into their squad and give stellar performances. which as we all know in football is often rarely the case. football fans always think that their team is only a couple of players away from getting to another level. but its rarely that simple. had arsenal got a gk, cb, nad dm, they would probably have said that they need a new striker to replace giroud if they were to compete with teams with the likes of rvp or aguero up front. and if they had replaced their gk, cb, dm and striker, they would probably say gibbs and monreal are a level below the likes of cle or evra. football isnt about one or two players. its about the whole team and how they work with each other. fwiw, arsenal werent that far off the title last year anyway.

 

[Neymar]

Mate, the problem with talking about Wenger is (and what people like yourself often don't see)

- Wenger Mk1 (first 7-9 years) was extremely successful, transformed a 1-0 style club into something much better, and won trophies doing it. With caveats of the only real competition at the time was United, PL was very unsophisticated tactically, he inherited a solid defensive team (something that has faded the longer he is in charge), he also had Dein "helping" in more ways than one

the fading of the solid defensive team isnt necessarily a bad thing. football is about trying to get as many wins as possible. and sometimes having a team that is too focussed on defending isnt a good thing. wenger basically turned a solid defensive team into a world class attacking unit imo.

- Wenger Mk2 (last 8 or so years) has taken a side that was a real challenger/winner of titles/silverware and transformed them into the 4th place trophy champions (something that obviously the owners are very happy with). It's clear that he no longer has a plan, he goes multiple seasons with same issues (Keeper, DM come to mind), the injuries issue is a joke, and they now make appeasement buys (Ozil) in positions they don't need.

ozil is an appeasement buy? maybe so. but then why are their fans crying over not having singed fabregas? if they have gone so many years without a plan and unsolved issues, why are the only teams to have overtaken them in overall stature been owned by multi-billionaires?

People complain about Levy's lack of ambition, lets be clear, the reason Wenger is still employed is because the owners know he will manage 4th place (income), he won't push for the 100-150M in investment really needed to make them competitive, and his reputation (from Mk1 days) stops it from really being an issue with fans/media, because people can't/don't separate the first part of his time with the side they have become (how many years of season over by February do you need, after having been title contenders/winners to see it?)

lol if you seriously think 150m will make them competitive long term. hi brendan

 

[glorygloryeze]

the fading of the solid defensive team isnt necessarily a bad thing. football is about trying to get as many wins as possible. and sometimes having a team that is too focussed on defending isnt a good thing. wenger basically turned a solid defensive team into a world class attacking unit imo.




ozil is an appeasement buy? maybe so. but then why are their fans crying over not having singed fabregas? if they have gone so many years without a plan and unsolved issues, why are the only teams to have overtaken them in overall stature been owned by multi-billionaires?



lol if you seriously think 150m will make them competitive long term. hi brendan

Er...because Ozil was a panic buy, was not neccesary and has been a big let-down??
I notice you avoided Raziel's point about how the 45M they spent on an unnecceasry Ozil signing could and should have been spent to bolster other parts of the squad that needed it....

 

[Neymar]

I notice you avoided Raziel's point about how the 45M they spent on an unnecceasry Ozil signing could and should have been spent to bolster other parts of the squad that needed it....

if ozil was an appeasement buy, why are the arsenal fans complaining about not having signed fabregas? you may feel the 45m spent on ozil was unnecessary, but im sure wenger disagreees. whilst i can see why you think it couldve been spent better elsewhere, i can see why he thought it was good signing. 1) at the time of purchase, he was a genuine world class player (at a good age <25) available for sub 50m. which other worldclass player was/is available at this price? ie. compare ozil to di maria. 2) ozil is a type of player that could suit arsenal perfectly. and his style makes everyone else look better too.

 

[glorygloryeze]

if ozil was an appeasement buy, why are the Ar5ena1 fans complaining about not having signed fabregas?

As I said before, because the appeasement buying of Ozil did not work; for the price he was a disappointment. I any case he wasn't needed in the first place, but some of them felt Cesc would have been a more sure option in bring in the play-making capabilities that had been proven to work in the PL. In any case not THAT many Gooners were that bothered at the time; they wanted re-enforcements in other areas that were higher priority - as you well know.

you may feel the 45m spent on ozil was unnecessary, but im sure wenger disagreees.

Of course he does; that's the crux of this discussion. Or is this your "Wenger can do little wrong" bias coming out?

whilst i can see why you think it couldve been spent better elsewhere, i can see why he thought it was good signing. 1) at the time of purchase, he was a genuine world class player (at a good age <25) available for sub 50m. which other worldclass player was/is available at this price? ie. compare ozil to di maria. 2) ozil is a type of player that could suit Ar5ena1 perfectly. and his style makes everyone else look better too.

Are you REALLY so blind to the simple points here??
He was a genuine world class player (though I think he's overrated personally) but he was not needed at the time! I see how you bring up Di Maria who was bought this year NOT last year. Why is it you conveniently fail to mention other world class players who could have been bought at the time and who were available? Do you not think that instead of playing 45M for Ozil they could not have bought a world class striker instead? After all a striker was top priority that time: Suarez, HIguain, maybe even Cavani could have been bought for what they paid for Ozil, who was a player playing in a position that was already stocked.
All those strikers could have lifted Arsenal in a similar way that you claim Ozil does.

Or is all I've written above about buying a world class striker instead of Ozil wrong simply because Wenger didn't do it?

 

[Neymar]

its your opinion that he was not needed at the time. i think the reason why wenger gets so much stick (from a tactical perspective) is because a lot of people have a difference of opinion on how football should be played. its very similar to the debate g.neville had with carragher on mnf a while back. i suspect wenger thinks that the best way to play the game is to load the team with players comfortable on the ball. now obviously a lot of people disagree with this. and think that football should be played with players with more defined roles. ie. a dcm should be good at tackling, running, and be tall etc, whilst a winger should be tricky, agile and fast. i think this is the crux of the argument. hence why you, and so many others felt that ozil was not needed. which is fair enough, and totally understandable. and this is why wenger's tactics get critised too. because his teams make the kind of mistakes that a more conventional system would not make. however, the results that his teams have gotten over the years are on par/marginally above what you would expect given the financial outlay on his team. this leads me to think that maybe he isnt so wrong. and thats why i can fully sympathise with signings like ozil.

also barcelona play in an unconventional manner. and the moment they go on a slightly poor streak, people come out saying that they need to play more conventionally. i think fans are so ingrained from a young age about "how football should be played", that any deviation from this style makes them uncomfortable. and they want to revert back to standard asap.

ultimately, the debate on whether ozil was needed or not is going to be about opinions and no-one is going to be able to prove that they are right either way. but when you consider how many "tactical-flaws", "personel deficiencies", etc you (and many others) believe that wenger's arsenal have had over the years, isnt it amazing how the only 2 teams that have overtaken them in the past decade are owned by multi-billionaires? in short, this is why im so reluctant to jump on the bandwagon that wenger is wrong (re tactics and player recruitment). If he was so wrong about all these things, surely others should have overtaken them by now.

 

[markysimmo]

Isnt this a United thread ???

 

[Superted]

fudging hell, Neymar's turned another thread into a fudging Arsenal gangbang.

 

[Mumorn]

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Neymar, arsenal spend absolutely millions on wages and transfers, they are most certainly not punching above their weight by winning 1 trophy in the last 10 years or whatever it is!

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/564475767753805824

 

[markysimmo]

Seriously how has this pile of brick only lost once in the last seventeen games ???

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

With their attacking players they should be doing so much better.
AVB (not that I liked him) Moyes and lots of other managers have got so much stick for not doing very well in their first season, yet LVG gets away with it.

 

[Jordinho]

Allardyce: "We just couldn't cope with 'Longball United.' It was just, 'hoof it forward, see what we can get.' It paid off for them."

 

[Jordinho]

Reading some post-match comments on redcafe and they're turning on LVG big time. brick football, players playing out of position and big names never dropped, despite LVG taking pride in being someone that doesn't pick players on reputation.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Allardyce: "We just couldn't cope with 'Longball United.' It was just, 'hoof it forward, see what we can get.' It paid off for them."

Bit rich of him of all people to say that, but he was actually right. United did resort to a lot of long balls.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It's hard to imagine a team not doing well with RVP rooney mata di maria falcao to choose from but looking at united they are so ordinary. And as carragher said, people keep mentioning their defence but even the attack is lacking any kind of cohesion

I'm not really seeing steps forward regardless of what LVG thinks. Of course they'll win games and have good games, great players will deliver that sometimes but they look like they are going nowhere fast and we need to capitalise on that RIGHT NOW.

 

[Jordinho]

LVG has come out with his own analysis of the game to show they're not a long ball team:

 

[Rorschach]

I think this 'handout' thing really is childish. I get that it must smart to get told by fat Sam that you are a long ball team, but he is right (Sam that is). It has been commented on in this thread a few times. Utd have been punting the ball all season!!!