shaney
Alan Hutton
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/08/gordon-taylor-ched-evans-hillsborough-pfa
Gordon Taylor comparing Ched Evans to Hillsborough. Oh dear !
Gordon Taylor comparing Ched Evans to Hillsborough. Oh dear !
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Ched Evans
- Thread starter Jurgen the German
- Start date
Superted
Jonathan Woodgate
Except the courts have said the complete opposite:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-sex-is-still-consent-judge-rules-516722.html
And as stated in the appeal transcript:
A criticism of the summing-up involves an analysis of the directions given to the jury about the issue of consent in the context of the consumption of alcohol and/or drugs. The written submissions also criticised selected passages in the summing-up. There were two broad complaints. Firstly, that nowhere in the summing-up was it made clear to the jury that, even if the complainant was drunk, it did not necessarily mean that she had not consented; "a drunken consent is still a consent".
If it holds that drunken consent is not consent then we have a lot of rapists on here, me included.
Why is it up to guys like Evans to say "no dear, I will not have sex with you even though you are saying you want to. I know deep down you don't and it's only the alcohol talking. I bid you a good night"?
Superted
Jonathan Woodgate
This i don't like either. All Evans knew of this girl was when he walked into the room, saw her having sex with his mate and she invited him to join (according to his version of events).
How is he supposed to determine from that brief encounter that she is too drunk?
Wouldn't the other guy be more culpable in that he saw her for a longer period and in the taxi? If anyone knew she was "too drunk to consent" (which has been shown to be irrelevant) then it is he, not Evans.
Yes this case hinged not on whether the girl was drunk or not but her level of intoxication. She had to be incapable of making a decision (basically unconscious) for *struggle cuddle* to have been committed.
She need not have been able to make an informed or wise decision but the ability to make any decision means *struggle cuddle* could not have been committed.
The jury decided that it was beyond reasonable doubt that the girl was incapacitated to such an extent that she was not conscious of her surroundings and was unable to make a decision at all when Evans had sex with her.
Personally I find their findings bizarre and dangerous.
Toxicology report and expert witnesses suggest the girl was no where near this level of intoxication;
Medical examination found no external or internal injuries to the girl;
CCTV footage shows her arriving at the hotel unassisted laughing and talking. Earlier she was shown eating a pizza and then getting in a taxi with Mcdonald to go to the hotel room;
The girls testimony is that she can't remember anything of that night. However not only does this call into question her insistence that she did not consent, it is also questioned by the expert witnesses;
Ultimately there is actually almost zero evidence that *struggle cuddle* has occurred and considering the evidence that makes the girls testimony questionable how it could be considered that Evans raped her beyond reasonable doubt I do not know.
What is even more concerning was that the jury considered that the girl was in a fit state to consent to sex with McDonald but not with Evans. How can this be so as her level of intoxication did not change from one to the other?
It should also be pointed out that initially the girl only.reported the loss of her bag to the police and nothing else.
Given the nailed on cases I've lost in court against suspected fraudsters a much less serious crime and knowing the evidential standards we have to meet for someone to.be convicted of such a hideous crime based on so little should be scary for a civilised society. To my mind it's literally one step from "she's a witch, burn her. Because I said she's a witch!"
Richie
Naybet
There's far more to this than 'end of story'. Where is the tipping point? At what point does a woman (or man for that matter) go from bring able to being unable to consent?
Superhudd
Simon Davies
Great post
It somewhat laughable IMO that the one defence the mob rule seem to be saying as a reason that he should not be a footballer is because he will be idolised is for me absolutely absurd when the media, which puts these people on a pedal stool will forever use the wording convicted rapist every time he scores a goal. The public will not be allowed to forget his trangressions.
I'd also like to suggest there have been well over a million rapes in the Spanish islands over the last twenty years if this is *struggle cuddle*. Hell I've been there, pi$$ed.. fallen asleep whilst she is riding and woken not sure that the girl I pulled was the one I woke with, but she is in another room too, laying next to a mate. Whatever you say it's the way society is, and has changed to be.
For the mentality of today's youth.. People need to watch shows like Geordie Shore and the valleys to realise why this whole situation is fcuked up. All women should wear chastity belts where they need to put in a PIN number and only they know the pin. Or sign a contract, and forget about the passion of such situations or many situations will end up the same way. Or maybe we will have a drink drive regulation which says it's illegal to have sex with another you met that night if they are over a certain limit, but how would they know if over the limit?
This whole case of was she or wasn't she in control of her actions is so bloody ambiguous I worry for the younger male generation if this case is what everyone goes by. Durex should have a little paper contract in its box whereby both people sign it. lol
It seems ridiculous that I feel I have to say this, but *struggle cuddle*.. It's a hideous crime, and people found guilty of it should be in prison without parole like murderers. But it's not Ched Evens fault he did so little time.
genuine question. If people think he should be working in a supermarket as a punishment, do the people that already work in supermarkets not get a say whether they want to work alongside him. What does it say to the people that work in supermarkets and are now classed as.. as good as a rapist. how do you categorise what job he be allowed to do. You just don't.. You let them go back to the career they had prior, or risk stigmatising others being as decent as a rapist because of there job title.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
I'm not saying what actually happened because I don't know the full facts. But I saw the video of her running out the hotel to grab a Pizza in 30 inch wedges and I think "how drunk was she" to be able to do that? Then I think it wasn't forced *struggle cuddle* as apparently she didn't report it as such like that, it was the two lads that gave up the information of having sex voluntary as she couldn't remember???
King of Norway
Gudni Bergsson
I am curious... how serious must a criminal offence to make it unacceptable to sign a player? Judging by the reactions in the Ched Evans-case, most people think it is not okay to sign a player convicted of *struggle cuddle*. At the same time, Saido Berahino is being linked with a move to several big clubs. He will most likely soon be found guilty of drink driving at a high speed. A lot of people, unfortunately, trivialise drink driving, but personally I think it is a very serious offence. You put other people's lives and safety at risk. And Berahino wasn't just a tad over the limit either (if that even matters), he could easily have ended up killing someone. Yet, no one seems to react against the idea of signing him.
I am not comparing drink driving to *struggle cuddle*, but where do you draw the line? Is money laundering okay, but not drug dealing? Is battering someone on the street okay, but not beating the wife? I think it's a difficult topic.
I am not comparing drink driving to *struggle cuddle*, but where do you draw the line? Is money laundering okay, but not drug dealing? Is battering someone on the street okay, but not beating the wife? I think it's a difficult topic.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
Well I wouldn't put him down as a social marker but 'Arry said last night, if Evans gets a job in a shop people will moan, if he gets a job in an office people will moan and if he becomes a footballer, people will moan. Therefore what does he do? nothing for the rest of his life?
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...r-25-years-before-i-go-to-oldham-9964726.html this blokes a plonker
7percent
Pascal Chimbonda
In that case I used to *struggle cuddle* my ex every weekend. Or did she *struggle cuddle* me?
I have a strong feeling his appeal will be successful and then where will this conversation be?
Seedy Ron
Jimmy Neighbour
So by your own experience, not so unreasonable to suggest she could've consented to sex with McDonald, but not been in a position to consent to Evans later when he showed up? In the case notes bit Richie posted yesterday, which I believe is from when the Appeal Court turned down his application of appeal (?), there's an explanation of that:
https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans
I agree with Treepits that mob rule shouldn't be what prevents Evans getting a job, death threats, *struggle cuddle* threats (bizarrely) all way beyond acceptable and should be dealt with by the police. But at the same time, I can see why sponsors wouldn't want to be associated with him via the club, I don't think that's unreasonable.
As for what'll happen if his case review finds in his favour, he'll no longer be a convicted rapist. As it is he is. We can only go on what the courts decide.
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
He is not rehabilitated.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/08/ched-evans-sheffield-united-oldham
Ched Evans still has a lot to do if he is to play professionally once again
The shambolic collapse of Oldham Athletic’s effort to sign Ched Evans, who is out on licence halfway through a five-year prison sentence for *struggle cuddle*, finally arrived accompanied by Evans’s first words of apology to what he called “the woman concerned” since he and a friend had sex with her at the Rhyl Premier Inn in 2011.
The statement by the 26-year-old former Emirates Marketing Project, Sheffield United and Wales striker was first delivered within one from the players’ union, the Professional Footballers’ Association, which had supported Oldham giving Evans a contract in spite of huge public and political opposition.
Later a statement was released in Evans’s name on the website funded by his girlfriend Natasha Massey’s father, Karl, which is itself the subject of an investigation by the attorney general for possible criminal identification of the *struggle cuddle* victim and contempt of court. The other content of the website remained visible, including derogatory references to the victim which were not heard in court, and CCTV footage of her arrival at the hotel, which the victim’s father has complained makes her identifiable, in breach of her right to lifelong anonymity having suffered a sex crime. Her father said on 28 December that she had been forced to change her identity five times after continually being named and hounded on social media, and had been unable to be with her family at Christmas.
Evans said in his statement that those using social media “in an abusive and vindictive way towards this woman are not my supporters and I condemn their actions”. However, this ran alongside links to the CCTV footage which invites people to “Judge for yourself” if the victim looked too drunk to consent to sex with Evans, which a jury found her to have been, and other content which continues to vilify her.
Evans said that he himself had withdrawn from signing for Oldham after sponsors promised to end their association with the club due to “mob rule tactics”. He and the club, in their own statement, said they would have faced “significant financial pressure” and Evans said there was a threat of funding being withdrawn for building the new north stand at Boundary Park. “It would mean workers would lose their jobs and others would be put at risk – that simply would not be fair,” he said.
However, one local sponsor, ZenOffice, a supply company, told the Guardian it had promised to withdraw because its customers and staff overwhelmingly did not want to be associated with the club if they signed Evans. Bruce Davie, the company’s sales director, said it sponsored Oldham Athletic because it believed the club shared its “values” as a business rooted in family and the local community, and signing Evans, while still serving his sentence for *struggle cuddle*, would contravene those values.
The League One club themselves, who have been unable to cope with the media furore and opposition – including from the sponsors – confirmed the deal had collapsed less than 24 hours after the owner and chairman, Simon Corney, had spoken for the first time, saying he intended to sign Evans. However, following Corney’s assertion that it was 80% likely to happen, it was the Labour leader of Oldham council, Jim McMahon, who made the first firm announcement that the deal was off.
McMahon revealed that it was not only the sponsors Verlin Rainwater Solutions, Mecca Bingo, Nando’s and ZenOffice which had expressed objections, but the council had also disapproved too. In the frenzied debate about whether or not footballers are role models, which followed the news of Oldham’s intent to sign Evans on Sunday, the town’s council maintains that the club is a community organisation and the players have “ambassadorial” roles, visiting schools and hospitals and being involved in social programmes.
The council is thought to have been alarmed at the opprobrium which would heap on a Pennine town with tough social and economic challenges should it suddenly become notorious for its football club signing Evans. “I’ve always believed in rehabilitation,” McMahon said in a statement, “but felt that both club and player should have allowed Mr Evans’s appeal to run its course before agreeing a contract. As it stands Mr Evans has been found guilty in a court of law and has not yet completed his sentence.”
Corney, who lives in New York, was reported to have threatened to quit as chairman, although club sources were understood not to be taking that threat overly seriously. After Sheffield United and Hartlepool abandoned plans for Evans following a similar outcry, Corney had felt Oldham could sign a bargain striker who is legally free to work.
Oldham signed another striker, Lee Hughes, in 2007 after his release from prison while serving a six-year sentence for causing death by dangerous driving, and believed they could withstand the opposition. That included an online petition which gathered thousands of signatures, Labour’s shadow sports minister, Clive Efford, calling for the Football Association to intervene, and a huge media and social-media debate.
Oldham, however, referred only to a “barrage of abuse”, and claimed there had been “vile and abusive threats, some including death threats”, made to fans, sponsors and staff “whilst this process has been in the public domain”.
Greater Manchester police told the Guardian it had called the club and sponsors as the opposition mounted during the week and been told there were no serious threats, only a couple of instances of “low-level Twitter abuse”, by the time the deal collapsed.
After his conviction in April 2012 and his release from prison last October, Evans had expressed no remorse, instead only apologising that the *struggle cuddle* was “an act of infidelity” to his girlfriend. The website funded by Massey maintains Evans’s innocence in a way which contests the jury’s verdict, vilifies the victim, who was 19 at the time, and contained no apology until now.
Evans does not contest the facts of what he did; he went to the Premier Inn after receiving a text from a friend and former colleague at Emirates Marketing Project’s academy, Clayton McDonald, to the effect: “I’ve got a bird.” The prosecution argued that Evans booked the room solely to take girls to, and that the pair were “on the lookout for any girl who was a suitable target”. Evans denied that, saying in his defence the room was for McDonald and another friend to stay in.
On arriving in the room, Evans found McDonald, who had bumped into the girl at 3am in a kebab shop when she was drunk, having sex with her. Both Evans and McDonald agreed that his response to seeing the girl for the first time was that she was asked if Evans could “join in” and he did.
Evans claims she consented; she said she had no memory at all of that part of the evening. The alcohol expert who gave evidence on Evans’s behalf when he lost an application for leave to appeal, agreed that the victim may have had no memory of the events, while arguing she can still have been capable at the time to have consented to having sex with Evans.
McDonald left the hotel room, telling the night porter to look out for the girl, because she was “sick”. After Evans finished having sex with her – his brother and friend were outside trying to film events on their mobile phones – she went to sleep. Evans left the hotel by the fire escape and went to his parents’ house in Rhyl – none of his party slept in the room.
The young woman woke up the next morning on her own, naked, having lost her bag and telephone, with no other possessions. She went to the police, who mounted the investigation for *struggle cuddle*. The jury acquitted McDonald while convicting Evans.
Evans’s statement still contained no apology for what he actually did, and instead was expressed impersonally. “Whilst I continue to maintain my innocence, I wish to make it clear that I wholeheartedly apologise for the effect that that night in Rhyl has had on many people, especially the woman concerned.”
He was refused leave to appeal by the lord chief justice, Igor Judge, in November 2012, and the conviction is now being examined by the Criminal Cases Review Commission. His solicitor, Shaun Draycott, said he feels “some confidence we will be successful”.
Until that review is concluded and whether or not it is successful, Ched Evans has a great deal more to do before he can find acceptance again as a professional footballer, even when a club wants to sign him and believes it can withstand the opprobrium he trails with him.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/08/ched-evans-sheffield-united-oldham
Ched Evans still has a lot to do if he is to play professionally once again
The shambolic collapse of Oldham Athletic’s effort to sign Ched Evans, who is out on licence halfway through a five-year prison sentence for *struggle cuddle*, finally arrived accompanied by Evans’s first words of apology to what he called “the woman concerned” since he and a friend had sex with her at the Rhyl Premier Inn in 2011.
The statement by the 26-year-old former Emirates Marketing Project, Sheffield United and Wales striker was first delivered within one from the players’ union, the Professional Footballers’ Association, which had supported Oldham giving Evans a contract in spite of huge public and political opposition.
Later a statement was released in Evans’s name on the website funded by his girlfriend Natasha Massey’s father, Karl, which is itself the subject of an investigation by the attorney general for possible criminal identification of the *struggle cuddle* victim and contempt of court. The other content of the website remained visible, including derogatory references to the victim which were not heard in court, and CCTV footage of her arrival at the hotel, which the victim’s father has complained makes her identifiable, in breach of her right to lifelong anonymity having suffered a sex crime. Her father said on 28 December that she had been forced to change her identity five times after continually being named and hounded on social media, and had been unable to be with her family at Christmas.
Evans said in his statement that those using social media “in an abusive and vindictive way towards this woman are not my supporters and I condemn their actions”. However, this ran alongside links to the CCTV footage which invites people to “Judge for yourself” if the victim looked too drunk to consent to sex with Evans, which a jury found her to have been, and other content which continues to vilify her.
Evans said that he himself had withdrawn from signing for Oldham after sponsors promised to end their association with the club due to “mob rule tactics”. He and the club, in their own statement, said they would have faced “significant financial pressure” and Evans said there was a threat of funding being withdrawn for building the new north stand at Boundary Park. “It would mean workers would lose their jobs and others would be put at risk – that simply would not be fair,” he said.
However, one local sponsor, ZenOffice, a supply company, told the Guardian it had promised to withdraw because its customers and staff overwhelmingly did not want to be associated with the club if they signed Evans. Bruce Davie, the company’s sales director, said it sponsored Oldham Athletic because it believed the club shared its “values” as a business rooted in family and the local community, and signing Evans, while still serving his sentence for *struggle cuddle*, would contravene those values.
The League One club themselves, who have been unable to cope with the media furore and opposition – including from the sponsors – confirmed the deal had collapsed less than 24 hours after the owner and chairman, Simon Corney, had spoken for the first time, saying he intended to sign Evans. However, following Corney’s assertion that it was 80% likely to happen, it was the Labour leader of Oldham council, Jim McMahon, who made the first firm announcement that the deal was off.
McMahon revealed that it was not only the sponsors Verlin Rainwater Solutions, Mecca Bingo, Nando’s and ZenOffice which had expressed objections, but the council had also disapproved too. In the frenzied debate about whether or not footballers are role models, which followed the news of Oldham’s intent to sign Evans on Sunday, the town’s council maintains that the club is a community organisation and the players have “ambassadorial” roles, visiting schools and hospitals and being involved in social programmes.
The council is thought to have been alarmed at the opprobrium which would heap on a Pennine town with tough social and economic challenges should it suddenly become notorious for its football club signing Evans. “I’ve always believed in rehabilitation,” McMahon said in a statement, “but felt that both club and player should have allowed Mr Evans’s appeal to run its course before agreeing a contract. As it stands Mr Evans has been found guilty in a court of law and has not yet completed his sentence.”
Corney, who lives in New York, was reported to have threatened to quit as chairman, although club sources were understood not to be taking that threat overly seriously. After Sheffield United and Hartlepool abandoned plans for Evans following a similar outcry, Corney had felt Oldham could sign a bargain striker who is legally free to work.
Oldham signed another striker, Lee Hughes, in 2007 after his release from prison while serving a six-year sentence for causing death by dangerous driving, and believed they could withstand the opposition. That included an online petition which gathered thousands of signatures, Labour’s shadow sports minister, Clive Efford, calling for the Football Association to intervene, and a huge media and social-media debate.
Oldham, however, referred only to a “barrage of abuse”, and claimed there had been “vile and abusive threats, some including death threats”, made to fans, sponsors and staff “whilst this process has been in the public domain”.
Greater Manchester police told the Guardian it had called the club and sponsors as the opposition mounted during the week and been told there were no serious threats, only a couple of instances of “low-level Twitter abuse”, by the time the deal collapsed.
After his conviction in April 2012 and his release from prison last October, Evans had expressed no remorse, instead only apologising that the *struggle cuddle* was “an act of infidelity” to his girlfriend. The website funded by Massey maintains Evans’s innocence in a way which contests the jury’s verdict, vilifies the victim, who was 19 at the time, and contained no apology until now.
Evans does not contest the facts of what he did; he went to the Premier Inn after receiving a text from a friend and former colleague at Emirates Marketing Project’s academy, Clayton McDonald, to the effect: “I’ve got a bird.” The prosecution argued that Evans booked the room solely to take girls to, and that the pair were “on the lookout for any girl who was a suitable target”. Evans denied that, saying in his defence the room was for McDonald and another friend to stay in.
On arriving in the room, Evans found McDonald, who had bumped into the girl at 3am in a kebab shop when she was drunk, having sex with her. Both Evans and McDonald agreed that his response to seeing the girl for the first time was that she was asked if Evans could “join in” and he did.
Evans claims she consented; she said she had no memory at all of that part of the evening. The alcohol expert who gave evidence on Evans’s behalf when he lost an application for leave to appeal, agreed that the victim may have had no memory of the events, while arguing she can still have been capable at the time to have consented to having sex with Evans.
McDonald left the hotel room, telling the night porter to look out for the girl, because she was “sick”. After Evans finished having sex with her – his brother and friend were outside trying to film events on their mobile phones – she went to sleep. Evans left the hotel by the fire escape and went to his parents’ house in Rhyl – none of his party slept in the room.
The young woman woke up the next morning on her own, naked, having lost her bag and telephone, with no other possessions. She went to the police, who mounted the investigation for *struggle cuddle*. The jury acquitted McDonald while convicting Evans.
Evans’s statement still contained no apology for what he actually did, and instead was expressed impersonally. “Whilst I continue to maintain my innocence, I wish to make it clear that I wholeheartedly apologise for the effect that that night in Rhyl has had on many people, especially the woman concerned.”
He was refused leave to appeal by the lord chief justice, Igor Judge, in November 2012, and the conviction is now being examined by the Criminal Cases Review Commission. His solicitor, Shaun Draycott, said he feels “some confidence we will be successful”.
Until that review is concluded and whether or not it is successful, Ched Evans has a great deal more to do before he can find acceptance again as a professional footballer, even when a club wants to sign him and believes it can withstand the opprobrium he trails with him.
If you got convicted of a crime you felt you didn't do, would you apologise and show remorse?
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
Steve Bruce has come out now and questions his actual conviction, that's a brave man there
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Indeed
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
People go way too OTT on these things, ignore what he said but look that used to word Hillsborough.
What he said was he wouldn't be the first person in the world to say he is innocent, be condemned but later proved right. Like Liverpool fans at Hillsborough who were innocent, were blamed and years later found to be innocent.
But in the UK you can't use the word Hillsborough without someone shouting injustice
Superhudd
Simon Davies
I was not comparing incidents. Merely highlighting the way it is out there
7percent
Pascal Chimbonda
Isn't apologising admitting guilt? If you were about to go on trial for a murder you didn't commit would you publicly apologise for the murder in the build up?
There's no way he'll apologise unless all legal routes of proving himself not guilty have been exhausted.