Cardiff - Post match discussion thread

[90291Spur]

i think sherwood made the wrong call by not starting with sandro.
cardiff's players aren't technically great, so giving them space is giving them too much respect.

we looked soft in defence and it had an impact on the midfielders and fullbacks' confidence. still it looked like sherwood had instructed everyone to get up there to attack and just left 2 CBs behind.

lennon over extended his role imo, playing sweeper for much of the time and mopping up the loose balls. that either nauhton or one of the CMs ought to but did not.

there was no system, it was players in designated positions asked to do their best.

It's possible he didn't want to over-work Sandro who has not really recovered his full fitness since his injury last year.

 

[jaysea67]

Vincent Tan offered Cardiff City players 'illegal' bonus before Spurs game
• Cardiff owner reportedly offered £3.7m to share
• Bonus was contingent on staving off relegation

The Premier League is to write to the Cardiff City owner, Vincent Tan, asking for his observations after reports that he offered his players an illegal £3.7m bonus before Sunday's game against Tottenham.

The league's rules say that bonuses must be lodged before the start of the season.

According to the Daily Mail, Tan addressed the players at the Hilton Hotel in Park Lane on Saturday evening and told them they "would need to shoot more", then offered them £3.7m to share if they staved off relegation.

A spokesman for Tan told the Mail: "We didn't realise it was against regulations. Vincent Tan has now rescinded the offer."

Cardiff could in theory face a fine or even a points deduction should the league deem the matter sufficiently serious.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/04/vincent-tan-cardiff-city-illegal-bonus

 

[Pirate55]

It's really tough for me thee days, especially given my sometimes-pathetic levels of optimism…we are at a point now where our expectations have been steadily raised for the last 6 years. We have been consistently closer to the top 4 than any other club outside 'the four' and we have missed it by insanely tight margins/weirdness the last few years. So I am a bit of a victim of that…

And I think you're right, the balance isn't great. Further, if I'm honest, I think personally Sherwood's remit has been to get us to the end of the season and look like we can be CL points-wise before ushering in someone else, although Levy knows the absolute hailstorm of **** he will cop if we did make CL and booted Sherwood out.

My chief aggravation lies with the squad, who I feel have enough football intelligence among them to make it happen, yet who increasingly seem hamstrung by their own stupor. It's aggravating to watch. I know I've picked out a couple who have dinged my bell recently, there are others, but I found it significant that the one move from back to front not involving Dembele lead to a pacy move, some quick passing (when Soldado told Townsend where to pass and when) completed by an excellent pass and finish for the goal. THAT is what we're capable of far more regularly and that is what I want to see…not holding onto the ball, checking left, turning, checking again and finally passing!!!![/

Spot on.

It is the players who have overwhelmingly underachieved.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that these are all by and large international players that cant pass a ball and dont yet know what pass and move means.

PS I dont agree with you on Sherwood though. I think he will be given till next season to see if he can improve us. Remember, this is a squad he inherited and hasnt had the opportunity to fashion his own team with players he wants - and no pre-season either. I believe he may though yet regret not buying a left back and centre forward in the January window if that decision was indeed down to him.

 

[metalgear]

i think its too much to lay on the players.

just like at work - there are many companies where poor managers don't get the best results from the team, and of course in the PL - do you really think that the players in everton are really much smarter than the lot that we have?

the role of the coach is to understand the players attributes, and devise a system that plays to their strengths and allow synergies through various combinations of play.

the players are responsible much for their ability to control, pass and shoot. but its the coach that has all the tools available to motivate the players to play as a team.

 

[Pirate55]

i think its too much to lay on the players.

just like at work - there are many companies where poor managers don't get the best results from the team, and of course in the PL - do you really think that the players in everton are really much smarter than the lot that we have?

the role of the coach is to understand the players attributes, and devise a system that plays to their strengths and allow synergies through various combinations of play.

the players are responsible much for their ability to control, pass and shoot. but its the coach that has all the tools available to motivate the players to play as a team.

Sorry, I don't agree with this. There is only so much a coach can do. The players play the game and are on the pitch for 90 minutes not the coaches.

Our players are almost all seasoned international players that have played for many teams in many countries and in many environments. They have all reached the pinnacle of their profession.

It is their responsibility to play like it and justify their monumental transfer fees and salaries. They got them for playing well elsewhere. Now they should start delivering for Spurs.

 

[milo]

Sorry, I don't agree with this. There is only so much a coach can do. The players play the game and are on the pitch for 90 minutes not the coaches.

Our players are almost all seasoned international players that have played for many teams in many countries and in many environments. They have all reached the pinnacle of their profession.

It is their responsibility to play like it and justify their monumental transfer fees and salaries. They got them for playing well elsewhere. Now they should start delivering for Spurs.

I don't think that it is as simple as that.

I think that our major problem is that whilst we have a strong squad, we lack game changers. AVB's preference for hard working, strong players who can play a number of positions has left us with a bit of a samey team who are short on ideas.

 

[Raziel]

The coach is responsible for motivation, tactics, balance (right selection), rightly or wrongly, its not the players

I do believe the major problem out side of motivation/tactics and slowness of new players to settle is -> midfield balance

 

[SpurMeUp]

Like the post match format. Only problem is I can't gloat and quote myself predicting in the match thread that Soldado would open the scoring and that it'd be a tight game with us scraping the win second half. But no surprises there, its the same players who have been playing in the same way most of the season. The result was everything today. Any post European game, where the opposition are fresher, the result trumps the performance. With maybe 5 players who'd come in as first choice starters over some of those selected today I am happy with the result.

Our passing and link up play needs work. We lack shape and make a passing game difficult as we don't have any set positions. We don't look cohesive or look like we have any shape - where players know where their team mates are or will be. If Sherwood can add shape and interchanging/ movement to our quicker play, then he'll have done well.

I want to see our midfield dominate the opposition and connect with the attackers. Eriksen our only player who's hinted at that. Dembele has the tools. Paulinho the potential. Sandro a defensive voodoo genius. But as a unit? Farrk all. We don't play as a unit. It would be unfair to Sherwood to come in and impose one over night, while grinding out wins. But that is what we're missing, and we haven't had an effective shape, movement and passing since Rednapp. In all fairness, if we don't see signs of Sherwood coordinating better team shape and movement, I would like De Boar to take over in the summer. Thing is it is hard for him to do mid season. Must win Europa game, 3 days later must win Prem game, then Chelsea. Rodgers at pool stuck to his playing philosophy last season and pools results suffered. We want both success and improvement all at once. HR delivered it. Top coaches can, will Sherwood?

 

[glorygloryeze]

I find it very strange that it is now being said that recent poor performances under TS are down to the players, whilst a few months ago poor performances were purely down to the manager.

Hypocritical to say the least

 

[Pirate55]

I don't think that it is as simple as that.

I think that our major problem is that whilst we have a strong squad, we lack game changers. AVB's preference for hard working, strong players who can play a number of positions has left us with a bit of a samey team who are short on ideas.

I really do think it is as simple as that. While the coach bears some responsibility obviously, it is the players that have consistently underperformed this season.

As a player, I am sure you have played in many deferent teams, under many different coaches, in many different formations. Has this altered your fundamental abilities, whether it be passing, shooting, heading, crossing, tackling etc. For me, the answer would be no. I am still the same player with the same attributes. Some styles suit me more than others, but I still know how to shoot, cross the ball, pass to a team mate, run into space etc. that has been ingrained from an early age. The coach can only work with what he has got in front of him.

It is the players on the pitch that must answer why the suddenly cant run off the ball, tackle, pass, shoot etc.

Especially at this level FFS.

 

[Pirate55]

I find it very strange that it is now being said that recent poor performances under TS are down to the players, whilst a few months ago poor performances were purely down to the manager.

Hypocritical to say the least

Some significant differences. AVB chose those players and had 18 months to work with them including two pre-seasons. They were chosen to fit into his desired playing style which was not delivering.

TS inherited those players and has had what less than three months with them and no pre season preparation.

Can you see the difference?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Some significant differences. AVB chose those players and had 18 months to work with them including two pre-seasons. They were chosen to fit into his desired playing style which was not delivering.

TS inherited those players and has had what less than three months with them and no pre season preparation.

Can you see the difference?

The players underperformance was more a problem this season was it not? It's not like we were getting the bad results (6-0, 5-0, 3-0 loss at home to West Ham) last season. If we were getting spanked like that throughout the 18 months then it could squarely be laid at AVB's door.

But the fact that it has MAINLY happened this season (i.e. big drubbings, 'turgid' performances) means that if you blame the players now under TS you cannot totally blame the previous manager. After all isn't TS's remit to get more/better out of the players than the previous manager?

In fact if the poor performances are down to the players right now - and not anything to do with TS - could it not be said that the good/better performances were down to the players and NOT anything to do with TS?

You can't have your cake and eat it

 

[SpurMeUp]

The players underperformance was more a problem this season was it not? It's not like we were getting the bad results (6-0, 5-0, 3-0 loss at home to West Ham) last season. If we were getting spanked like that throughout the 18 months then it could squarely be laid at AVB's door.

But the fact that it has MAINLY happened this season (i.e. big drubbings, 'turgid' performances) means that if you blame the players now under TS you cannot totally blame the previous manager. After all isn't TS's remit to get more/better out of the players than the previous manager?

In fact if the poor performances are down to the players right now - and not anything to do with TS - could it not be said that the good/better performances were down to the players and NOT anything to do with TS?

You can't have your cake and eat it

Is this a riddle!? A pro AVB brain-teaser?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Is this a riddle!? A pro AVB brain-teaser?

lol....I'm just asking at what point are failings the manager and at what point is it actually the players?

I find it hypocritical that after some poor recent displays its now all the players fault, whereas previously it was the manager who was clueless...where does one draw the line of responsibility?

 

[SpurMeUp]

lol....I'm just asking at what point are failings the manager and at what point is it actually the players?

I find it hypocritical that after some poor recent displays its now all the players fault, whereas previously it was the manager who was clueless...where does one draw the line of responsibility?

Its a good question to be fair. Look at HR now, he's not setting QPR alight in the Championship. Is that the players? Is it that HR is not determined? There are many variables and its not an easy question to answer as a generalisation each situation will be unique.

That said, the definition of a good manager for me, is that they make players better. Make them look better. Make them believe and perform. Provide the structures on field, and correct training behind the scenes, as well a using psychology to manipulate and motivate. But a manager can't kick a ball, so there are limits to what they can achieve.

In our case, the team is so new with so many players who are not used to the UK or the Prem, any manger would have had a job. But maybe a more experienced man than AVB and Sherwood could have galvanized the team more quickly. AVB didn't and TS has taken over mid term with games coming think and fast. To be fair to him he hasn't had a lot of time to achieve his goals, especially when the main goal is winning (above creating a coherent playing style).

 

[glorygloryeze]

Its a good question to be fair. Look at HR now, he's not setting QPR alight in the Championship. Is that the players? Is it that HR is not determined? There are many variables and its not an easy question to answer as a generalisation each situation will be unique.

That said, the definition of a good manager for me, is that they make players better. Make them look better. Make them believe and perform. Provide the structures on field, and correct training behind the scenes, as well a using psychology to manipulate and motivate. But a manager can't kick a ball, so there are limits to what they can achieve.

In our case, the team is so new with so many players who are not used to the UK or the Prem, any manger would have had a job. But maybe a more experienced man than AVB and Sherwood could have galvanized the team more quickly. AVB didn't and TS has taken over mid term with games coming think and fast. To be fair to him he hasn't had a lot of time to achieve his goals, especially when the main goal is winning (above creating a coherent playing style).

I agree with a lot of that. I still think for anyone to lay poor recent performances squarely at the players door alone means that they also have to credit the players alone for the good ones since TS took over

 

[DTA]

I agree with a lot of that. I still think for anyone to lay poor recent performances squarely at the players door alone means that they also have to credit the players alone for the good ones since TS took over

Thing is we will see what Tim is made of at the end of this month, the fixtures are about as hard as I would be with a Kelly brook, Beyoncé and Eva Medes foursome.

 

[milo]

I find it very strange that it is now being said that recent poor performances under TS are down to the players, whilst a few months ago poor performances were purely down to the manager.

Hypocritical to say the least

Quite a few people put it down to the players under AVB too, wasn't that the crux of the taking time to settle argument?

I think that the difference now is that we've seen the same players perform sporadically under two managers. So we have more information to form an opinion on.

I think that the root of our problems this season is that our only creators (Eriksen and Lamela) are very young and new to the league. Lamela's problems settling have left us over reliant on Eriksen, who didn't really show any form until Sherwood took over and even then he has been in and out of the team. I wonder if things might have been different if we had gone for a bit of experience in this area.

 

[Roland Beurre]

Lennon is a major part of our problems IMO. We need to upgrade him badly.

We have upgraded him badly, with Lamela.

 

[Pirate55]

lol....I'm just asking at what point are failings the manager and at what point is it actually the players?

I find it hypocritical that after some poor recent displays its now all the players fault, whereas previously it was the manager who was clueless...where does one draw the line of responsibility?

It isn't as black or white as you are trying to paint it. It isn't ALL the managers fault or NONE of the managers fault in either the case of AVB or TS. Some of the responsibility for the poor displays must lie with the players whoever the manager is.

However, there is a big BUT coming. AVB CHOSE these players, spunked over £100m on them, had 18 months to sort out tactics and a playing style, had the benefit of two pre-seasons and two foreign tours to get this bedded in and presided over some of the most turgid displays and utter humiliations in recent memory.

TS has had a squad he inherited, many disillusioned and dispirited players, a team which couldn't score for love nor money and were conceding hatfuls, a humongous injury list in the middle of a season where every game is important. Sure he has made mistakes (and I have criticized him when he has done so IMO), but you do see the difference, don't you?