Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
They all truly believe this, but it's based on nothing whatsoever other than hope.
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Canning Town Bingo Club
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nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I think back when we were in no mans land we were clubs of similar potential.
We've always been more widely known* and had more silverware, but back then we were both midtable teams with nothing to play for bar the odd cup run, 30+k stadiums, and full of nostalgia about what a sleeping giant we were.
Had Levy taken over there I think its possible they could have grown similarly to how we have.
Doesnt seem quite such a ridiculous point to make to me.
They are nothing like us culturally, but there was IMO a point in time when we were of very similar stature/potential.
*West Ham really is quite a local club isnt it? Outside of the east end it doesnt have much following. We have always had a wider appeal.
We've always been more widely known* and had more silverware, but back then we were both midtable teams with nothing to play for bar the odd cup run, 30+k stadiums, and full of nostalgia about what a sleeping giant we were.
Had Levy taken over there I think its possible they could have grown similarly to how we have.
Doesnt seem quite such a ridiculous point to make to me.
They are nothing like us culturally, but there was IMO a point in time when we were of very similar stature/potential.
*West Ham really is quite a local club isnt it? Outside of the east end it doesnt have much following. We have always had a wider appeal.
Kandi1977
Garth Crooks
Both based in London. And that's about it.
Whiffler
Jermaine Jenas
We are in historic Middlesex. They are in dreary old Essex, best consigned to history.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
I don't think they've ever had anywhere near our fan base, even in the dark old days of the late 90's. They were doing kids for a quid back in their 30k seater stadium, we never had to do that at WHL and always got over 25k even for the most unglamorous fixtures at the most unhelpful times.
Bullet
Andy Thompson
No no no, this is wrong. Very wrong.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Im not saying we are similarly sized clubs, just that we were, at a time, clubs of similar potential.
Gazza is right - we always enjoyed more fans, but that aside I can understand those on KIMB thinking "That could have been us"
Gazza is right - we always enjoyed more fans, but that aside I can understand those on KIMB thinking "That could have been us"
Kandi1977
Garth Crooks
In the same way that we could have been Real Madrid. If my uncle had a.....
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
No.
In the same way there was a time we were both middling clubs, having underachieved for years, in London, in similarly sized stadia.
In the way that, as I said, had someone like Levy taken them over instead of a succession of jokers they could have built up to the sort of position we now enjoy.
I realise this isnt hugely negative of West Ham, and on here thats blasphemy, but its the truth.
And if Im honest, I abso-fudging-lutely love the fact they missed the boat so spectacularly. They could have had it, but they dont, glorious.
In the same way there was a time we were both middling clubs, having underachieved for years, in London, in similarly sized stadia.
In the way that, as I said, had someone like Levy taken them over instead of a succession of jokers they could have built up to the sort of position we now enjoy.
I realise this isnt hugely negative of West Ham, and on here thats blasphemy, but its the truth.
And if Im honest, I abso-fudging-lutely love the fact they missed the boat so spectacularly. They could have had it, but they dont, glorious.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Yes, thanks for pointing out the obvious.
All I said was we were, at a time, of similar potential.
This bears no relation to where we are now, and certainly has no comparison to Real Madrid whom we NEVER could have grown to a similar level as.
All I said was we were, at a time, of similar potential.
This bears no relation to where we are now, and certainly has no comparison to Real Madrid whom we NEVER could have grown to a similar level as.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I think that you have to take the size of the fan base into account when talking about potential.
In our dark days on mid-table nothingness, they were a yo-yo club.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Its a fair point. If, however, they did stabalise and start building toward success, who is to say they wouldnt have found more fans?
While Im well aware we always had more following, our own following has grown considerably hasnt it?
And, of course, fans play a much smaller part in the finances these days - they impact less on a clubs success.
While Im well aware we always had more following, our own following has grown considerably hasnt it?
And, of course, fans play a much smaller part in the finances these days - they impact less on a clubs success.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I think that it would take a decade of Emirates Marketing Project/Chelsea type spending to put them into that category. They have a decent following in the south east but they are very much fourth behind Arsenal, us and Chelsea (or more realistically sixth behind those three plus ManU and Liverpool). Fans don't switch clubs so you are reliant on getting dormant fans attending again, getting kids to support you and appealing to the unaligned.
Our following is what has allowed Levy to do the sponsorship deals he has done.
Look at our sponsors vs theirs and you'll see who is an attractive club.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Dont forget we are talking what? 15 years now? 20 since Levy came in?
From back then, when we were of comparable potential (IMO) it was a different world. Slow and steady progress for them, regular european football, increased TV money...
Arguments on fanbase aside, they were in a VERY similar position/status to us. And Im still not convinced given the way the money has changed that the fanbase is a deal breaker.
Its quite conceivable that they could have grown organically to a similar degree to what we have.
Now I need to go find some soap to gargle...
milo
Jack L. Jones
I am not sure that our domestic fan base has grown much in that time. As Scara says, the fact that Spurs are better supported gave him a lot more to work with. West Ham are a less well supported club and the support that they have is concentrated into a smaller catchment area.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Due to Sugar's shortsightedness, we missed the Premier League/Sky boat. West Ham didn't even make it to the harbour. At the turn of the 90's we were one of the four biggest clubs in the country and that support largely stuck around during the bad times.
We have underachieved relatively speaking throughout the 90s and first part of the 00s and now we are at our pre Sky/PL boom level. West Ham have not underachieved with anything. They have won 3-4 trophies throughout their entire history and reached one cup final since winning a trophy nearly 40 years ago whilst being relegated 4-5 times in that period. No comparison in terms of expectation or historic success between the two clubs at all. The rivalry is there purely through geography (to a degree) and the general needle between the two sets of fans and nothing more. By 1990/91, a powerbase of 5 clubs existed who all had more pull and sway/history than any of the others - Liverpool, Man Utd, Everton, Spurs and Arsenal. Since then, Everton have fallen away and never recovered (unlike ourselves) and been replaced by Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea.
Whilst we have won the least in recent years of that 6 we are still a big pull TV wise, fanbase wise and have for the last 12-13 years been consistently in the top 6 season in and season out and played European football every season bar one plus reached 5 league cup finals inc 1999 and been in 7 FA Cup semi finals with the line between success and failure being shown to be very thin on quite a few of those failed occasions. People can rubbish that but you have to get to those semi finals to have a chance and teams like West Ham don't even get that far bar one odd season every 20-25 years. A period of competing with us to not finish as the lowest London based club in the league during our darkest years does not create a competitive rivalry. It is one based on bitterness and irritation from their side and one of putting them in their place from our side.
Being negative of West Ham is not the point and is in actual fact, pointless anyway. Its about reality. They had a similar sized stadium about 10 miles from us. No other real correlation at all other than during our worst period of sustained performance we were in and around their par performances and they finished above us a few times. So it isn't the truth at all. It would be like me trying to compare us to Chelsea in terms of size and pull now, whilst historically we are the bigger side, they have won 90% of their honours in the last 20 years and we have won 2 trophies in that time so they have overtaken us in that sense but we are much more relative to them in size and stature than West Ham are to us and that is just facts whether you like or not.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Bloody hell... do we really need to labour the point so much?
I made a pretty simple, and plain, statement. We were clubs of similar potential.
Not a "who is bigger?", not a "We were EXACTLY THE SAME!", just stating what I thought would have been pretty obvious - we were of similar potential.
I get the argument on fanbase. I just dont think, in the age of TV money, it counts for much.
I believe had West Ham been taken over by someone as canny as Levy, they could very well be in a similar boat to us now. Im yet to see any reason why not.
Of course, they werent and they havent, and - frankly - I think they have long since missed the boat on such an opportunity. They are now only have an Oligarch owner as a chance to really compete, IMO.
BUT, 15-20 years ago? They could have made very similar progress to what we have done.
Buy young with potential to sell high, reinvesting to develop the squad in a self sustaining fashion, revamp the academy, settle on more progressive managers and grow organically..... The TV money follows success. Consistent top 6 finishes and EUROPA/UEFA exposure all help to push that TV money up.
None of this was beyond them, and if done well would have left them looking a lot like us. Thats really all I was saying. Controversial or what?
I made a pretty simple, and plain, statement. We were clubs of similar potential.
Not a "who is bigger?", not a "We were EXACTLY THE SAME!", just stating what I thought would have been pretty obvious - we were of similar potential.
I get the argument on fanbase. I just dont think, in the age of TV money, it counts for much.
I believe had West Ham been taken over by someone as canny as Levy, they could very well be in a similar boat to us now. Im yet to see any reason why not.
Of course, they werent and they havent, and - frankly - I think they have long since missed the boat on such an opportunity. They are now only have an Oligarch owner as a chance to really compete, IMO.
BUT, 15-20 years ago? They could have made very similar progress to what we have done.
Buy young with potential to sell high, reinvesting to develop the squad in a self sustaining fashion, revamp the academy, settle on more progressive managers and grow organically..... The TV money follows success. Consistent top 6 finishes and EUROPA/UEFA exposure all help to push that TV money up.
None of this was beyond them, and if done well would have left them looking a lot like us. Thats really all I was saying. Controversial or what?