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Canning Town Bingo Club
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Grays_1890
Chris Jones
I can see value in what you are saying but I don't agree.
He managed Everton in a financially poor time and in fairness from the constant last day relegation battles they were unrecognizable as a club when he left. Kenwright was having to work tirelessly to get him every penny for get fresh players. You don't win 3 LMA's in 11 seasons as voted by your peers if you are no good.
Man United was a strange one, he was given a 6 year long term contract and in fairness was as good as LVG or Mourinho in their first seasons but the media tore down a good man. What they did was pick him apart and it was disgraceful and by the time he got back to Sunderland he was the man who was ridiculed by the press and the dodgy photos doing the rounds, he was made into a clown which I always felt was unfair.
Sunderland were always on a slide, miracles of all miracles that they stayed up previously.
Sociedad well they were crap in a league were you get torn apart for being crap and he did ok there, nothing amazing but not bad
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Thats the thing - everything with him at Everton was with the "financially poor..." or "on a budget..." caveats. I reality what he did is equivalent to Hughes at Stoke or Pulis at WBA. Nothing special.
Especially when you frame it against the like of Swansea and Bournemouth who came up the leagues on less of a budget playing much better football.
I think the finances become much less relevant when you consider he had 10 years to build things up. Really, how much had they developed in season 10 under him compared to season 2? Honestly I think they just got better at being cloggers, which ultimately has its own ceiling on success.
You could say he did as good as LVG, though Id argue a better term would be "as bad as...". He was utterly average in his performance points/stats wise - and anyone watching games would have far worse things to say about his performance.
Sunderland were not always on the slide, that is exactly my point (further up thread I think). They were on the slide for 3 seasons, under huge turmoil etc - but Allardyce did a remarkable job and righted the ship fantastically. Sunderland at the end of that season were solid, hard to beat - and also attacking well as a unit.
Their last 6 games:
Norwich A won 3-0
Arsenal H drew 0-0
Stoke A drew 1-1
Chelsea H won 3-2
Everton H won 3-0
Watford A drew 2-2
Thats averaging 2 goals scored a game, and IMO had Allardyce stayed they would have made mid table last season comfortably.
Moyes fudged the whole thing up! He was onto a good thing, ruined it.
Especially when you frame it against the like of Swansea and Bournemouth who came up the leagues on less of a budget playing much better football.
I think the finances become much less relevant when you consider he had 10 years to build things up. Really, how much had they developed in season 10 under him compared to season 2? Honestly I think they just got better at being cloggers, which ultimately has its own ceiling on success.
You could say he did as good as LVG, though Id argue a better term would be "as bad as...". He was utterly average in his performance points/stats wise - and anyone watching games would have far worse things to say about his performance.
Sunderland were not always on the slide, that is exactly my point (further up thread I think). They were on the slide for 3 seasons, under huge turmoil etc - but Allardyce did a remarkable job and righted the ship fantastically. Sunderland at the end of that season were solid, hard to beat - and also attacking well as a unit.
Their last 6 games:
Norwich A won 3-0
Arsenal H drew 0-0
Stoke A drew 1-1
Chelsea H won 3-2
Everton H won 3-0
Watford A drew 2-2
Thats averaging 2 goals scored a game, and IMO had Allardyce stayed they would have made mid table last season comfortably.
Moyes fudged the whole thing up! He was onto a good thing, ruined it.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
I think the lack of finances are a huge point, look at Pep, Mourinho et all and them moaning nearly daily about the lack of money when they have the most. I can't abide people bricking on achievements of those in the middle of the top league trying to hold back the tide against the big boys and people sticking the knife in. LVG as bad as in your words but with more money, he was giving a sh1t ton of cash when Moyes left and did little more.
People always stick the knife in on Pulis and Hughes, they did the same with Big Sam (Ironic he was hounded from WHU) but in the game that I watched these guys are managing at the highest level of the game, its so lazy to band around words like "cloggers", "sh1t" etc etc but the reality is these managers are working in the elite level taking on the managers that popular media often blow smoke up and they do it week in week out.
Also Fergi knew a little about football and he chose Moyes
People always stick the knife in on Pulis and Hughes, they did the same with Big Sam (Ironic he was hounded from WHU) but in the game that I watched these guys are managing at the highest level of the game, its so lazy to band around words like "cloggers", "sh1t" etc etc but the reality is these managers are working in the elite level taking on the managers that popular media often blow smoke up and they do it week in week out.
Also Fergi knew a little about football and he chose Moyes
Said it before, my biggest issue with Moyes is his record (at Everton) against anybody at their level or better. Over a decade it was simply terrible, any game Everton ever played that mattered (time they reached CL qualifiers, few cup runs they actually got somewhere, all games against Pool), they rolled over and take it up the ass.
Manu and Sunderland showed his personality doesn't respond well to pressure .. the perception of doom follows him ...
I could see West Ham go down under him ... he basically has two games, then they have a run of 4 or so games that they will likely struggle in, quite plausible they will lose his first 6.
Manu and Sunderland showed his personality doesn't respond well to pressure .. the perception of doom follows him ...
I could see West Ham go down under him ... he basically has two games, then they have a run of 4 or so games that they will likely struggle in, quite plausible they will lose his first 6.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I really disagree. Finances are less and less relevant as you have longer and longer in the job, IMO. You have time to change the ethos, style, tactics - after 10 years the academy should be spitting out players tailor made for you... Essentially, after 10 years the club is exactly what you wanted it to be. Everton at that point was the best Moyes could do.
As I said - look at Bournemouth and Swansea, less money than Everton but most certainly better football. More vision and ambition.
Its not sticking the knife in to say I think he could and should have done better. Built more, developed more. Look at the transformation Pochettino has made in such a short time. He had a vision, ambition, and made it happen - he went into a situation that was a mess and turned it around. And, relatively speaking - right now we are the ones holding back the tide against the big boys. That could have been Everton.
But for the Moyes limitation (similar could be argued about Villa/ONeil for a period as well).
Its something of a false argument to talk about the managers working at an elite level. Same as players - we all know the worst defender in the league (whoever that may be) would walk into your 5-a-side team and score in double figures playing everyone off the park. He is an elite player by virtue of being at the top level - BUT - there are levels within that. You can only really compare him to his peers.
So, yes - Moyes is an elite manager by virtue of being a premier league manager, but, yes - terms like "clogger" can be entirely valid when you compare his teams to others around them.
My view is not a "Well he isnt Guardiola..." thing. Its not with the benefit of hindsight - these are thoughts I had at the time. All hindsight has done is shown I was probably spot on!
As to Fergie, check his transfers - even the very best make some shocking decisions at times.
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Ian Walker
Moyes is in that group you mentioned, his only redeeming feature was he did try to bring young players through at Everton. The old reliable keep you in the division managers stick with attritional game plan with big blokes and hard workers and don't care about developing the game, rather than use a young player they buy second rate foreign player with experience. Martinez and Rodgers both tried to play progressive football and got the sack. The United job was definitely a poisoned chalice, nobody could follow AF, and I always wondered if whether Fergie was happy to see Moyes fail.
United fans claim Moyes single handedly turned them into a mid table side, but the squad Ferguson left behind was rubbish. Moyes didn't help himself with the players he added, but almost anyone would have failed that season.
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Ian Walker
Yeah Fergie did well to win the league with that team, they were one of the worse sides he had.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Was Everton's football that bad? I know when they played a bigger/better team they would revert to defensive/scrappy football, but Mourinho also does that (and ignores the 'bigger' just respecting the 'better') yet he is considered one of the best managers in the World.
I think Moyes did well at Preston and then did OK at Everton. I don't think he is a terrible manager at all (I think he is a lot better than Billic anyway, who I think was badly exposed in the Premier League). That being said I don't see Moyes as being a 'future changing' type manager at West Ham like Pochettino has been for us. 'Yesterday's man' is probably the kindest label you could give Moyes, but I think he will keep West Ham up this season and maybe that is good enough for them right now? It is certainly a better outcome than I saw for them under Billic.
I think Moyes did well at Preston and then did OK at Everton. I don't think he is a terrible manager at all (I think he is a lot better than Billic anyway, who I think was badly exposed in the Premier League). That being said I don't see Moyes as being a 'future changing' type manager at West Ham like Pochettino has been for us. 'Yesterday's man' is probably the kindest label you could give Moyes, but I think he will keep West Ham up this season and maybe that is good enough for them right now? It is certainly a better outcome than I saw for them under Billic.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Love the fact he’s already called out “the West Ham way” b0ll0cks! Just like Allardyce. The only people in the world who think they have “a way” are the West Ham fans themselves, I’ve no idea what that way is.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
That is the way i saw Moyes before the Sunderland debacle but he really balls that up and it was an eye opener for me.
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alekaras
The ITK of IDK
Hey mods (@milo @Jordinho @scaramanga etc), if this isn't evidence enough that, in addition to a "Like" button, we need a "Funny" button, then I don't know what is.
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
No seriously, we need a "Funny" button, like ASAP.
awesome dawson
Mitchell Thomas
I can't wait to see the London stadium in the Championship. 20,000 fans in that place will be like a 2018 Harvey Weinstein pool party.
MKSpur
Christian Ziege
Isn't the West Ham Way turning only turning up for the Spurs game each season. I suppose yoyoing is the West Ham way too.
MKSpur
Christian Ziege
To be fair the two he did manage to sign are still there! I'm no Moyes apologist but replacing Fergie at that time really was the impossible job, it's taken an incredible amount of money and two more trophy winning managers to get them to finish 6th in the league, playing attritional football. I also think they changed the person who negotiated the transfers there when fertile left and he missed out on a few of his targets, they seem to have solved that now by paying 25% more than anyone else would pay for the same player!
Not doubting his time at Sunderland was a disaster and It's a huge gamble taken by West Ham...the fans won't give him a lot of time based on his rep and football style unless he gets results quickly (just like Man U fans, its all about style and tradition, bringing through the kids etc, unless you are winning then suddenly that's all that matters)
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Honestly, for me? Yes.
And Mourinho is a great comparison. Moyes is, in many ways, a lesser version of him. For me both play a really cynical game.
Mourinho is not considered one of the best in the world for his style of play, the football he produces. Only because of the trophies in his cabinet. And thats the element where Moyes just doesnt compare.
Otherwise the overly defensive, boring style? Yes! The cynical fouls? Yes! The nasty niggles, spiteful digs etc? Yes!
Moyes does what Mourinho does (to a degree) but without winning anything or making his team any better. They just hit a level and stayed there. I think it says a hell of a lot that the Everton fans (to my view) really werent that sad to see him go. They were growing frustrated at the lack of development over the previous few seasons.
I do agree with you - he is most certainly a "yesterdays man" type.
Let me ask you, particularly after what he did with Sunderland, why do you think he will keep West Ham up?
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
The issue is you get the sexy managers, Martinez, De Boer and Everton's last manager who try and play sexy football and look what happens? If you play the big boys at their own game without the money to improve the quality of players you get steamed, simple as, its rare that many teams fight fire with fire but what teams like Bolton did against Arsenal of the day was beat them playing a different game. Thats clever and deserves better tags than attritional