No problem, but how do we know that this was a 'must have' signing, or his primary target? Just because he'd managed him before, does that have to be the case? He had assessed our squad then we make our move in signing some defensive players. Would it not be more likely that Poch had decided the defensive area was more important, where as we already had a lot more and better quality options at CM so Morgan was a 'nice to have' rather than a crucial necessity signing for him? None of us know Poch was desperate to sign him, more of an assumption just because he worked with him and turned him into a class player....
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Benjamin Stambouli
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
No problem, but how do we know that this was a 'must have' signing, or his primary target? Just because he'd managed him before, does that have to be the case? He had assessed our squad then we make our move in signing some defensive players. Would it not be more likely that Poch had decided the defensive area was more important, where as we already had a lot more and better quality options at CM so Morgan was a 'nice to have' rather than a crucial necessity signing for him? None of us know Poch was desperate to sign him, more of an assumption just because he worked with him and turned him into a class player....
90291Spur
Paul Walsh
So not always then. And I agree that more often than not Levy will buy (cheaper) players he wants rather than players the head coach/manager wants if he can save a few bob. Maybe this is also because we have a 36,000 seat stadium and are trying to compete with clubs with capacities up to 75,000 - which is a hell of a lot more dough oer year.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
I'd like to believe that Poch targeted the defensive area generally instead of Schneiderlin specifically, but what little recent history we have to go on dispels that belief in my eyes. AVB wanted to sign Moutinho, Willian and Hulk: he ended up getting Dembele on deadline day, Lamela for 30 million quid and Chadli for 7 million instead. Now, if we go by the assumption that AVB just generally wanted strengthening of the CM, LAM and RAM areas and not Moutinho, Willian and Hulk specifically, then he shouldn't have had a problem with any of those signings: they were all cheaper but still good alternatives for those positions.
We all know how that one ended. AVB crashed, burned and left,, and quickly afterwards came the news that apparently he didn't fancy most of the signings we made, and subsequently wasn't able to integrate them into the team the way he could have done with Moutinho, Willian and Hulk, who he (presumably) had already sketched out specific roles and club positions for. Turns out he didn't want the cheaper alternatives, he wanted the actual players themselves, since he knew them, had a bond with them and saw a role for them (apparently) in a way that the players signed instead of them couldn't live up to. Thus, I find it difficult to imagine that Poch is suddenly content with the cheaper alternative to Schneiderlin, especially given that, like Moutinho two years ago, Schneiderlin would fulfill a tactical role that (if you look at Poch's Southampton side last season) is absolutely crucial to the way Poch's teams operate.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
So it's Levy's fault if a club doesn't want to sell, or if they price us out of the market?
I'd partly put the blame on the manager, if he has unrealistic expectations of who we are able to afford and who we can sign, then of course they're going to get their second/third choice.
It's not like we don't spend big when we feel the player is worthwhile.
To be fair we had Willian, Chelsea stole him from us. I honestly think we are having a very good window and would have liked Schneiderlin but not at whatever ridculous price we would have had to pay. This guy looks talented, lets hope Poch works his magic and we will all be saying Morgan who come the end of the season....
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
For once, I'd like the vision of who we see as worthwhile match who the manager sees as worthwhile. More often than not it seems we second guess the guy in charge and sign cheaper alternatives to the players he wants because we don't feel those players are worth it. It has come back to bite us in the **** more than once. Just this once, when we've made a positive start under a guy who looks like he really knows his stuff, can we not stop second guessing the guy and sign the player he wants? Stop subconsciously telling him 'we don't think your judgement in the market is sound, and we don't think your targets are worthwhile'?
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
We're all hoping for that. If this deal does happen in lieu of the Schneiderlin one, then I'm just a bit disappointed in the cyclical nature of it all, really.
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
You speak as if we have unlimited funds. We don't. We have to make those distinctions. I don't want the manager to be the only person in charge of transfers. Why? Because people get things wrong. I much prefer the system we have now where we have two or three people involved with what is best for Tottenham Hotspur, rather than what might be best for the manager. They don't always line up.
It has come back to bite us in the ass that we don't have infinite funds and the ability to buy any player we want? We're not Chelsea of Emirates Marketing Project. I much prefer the way we operate.
Where is your proof we are second guessing him? Where is your proof that he isn't himself involved with the process? Understanding that he can't have every player he want and being willing to make compromises?
He wants schneiderlin. So no, we can't sign him. Saints are refusing to sell, which means their valuation of him is far over anything he is actually worth.
milo
Jack L. Jones
How do you know that Levy has found these cheaper versions? Isn't it possible that the "transfer committee" agreed a list of targets and we are moving through it? What would you prefer, paying over the odds or keep pushing for a deal that cannot be done?
I highly doubt that Fazio is a Levy signing.
Odds on that he is Poch's choice after the Musacchio deal proved to be impossible.
Fair enough mate, I understand your POV...
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Dubai, I think you're way over reacting here.
I'm a big advocate of getting the manager the players he wants. And if a club doesn't do that, it's pretty quickly going to end in tears. Us not getting Moutinho for AVB was a shame, but actually the fault of the club wasn't not getting Mountinho, it was not getting AVB a similar type of player, or AVB's fault for not having back ups in mind and taking a 'Moutinho or bust' mentality. If a coach can only succeed with £30M first choice signings then he isn't the coach we want at a club like ours.
We hired Poch because he gets the best out of players. He improves them beyond recognition. He's a good fit for what we need, and we shouldn't need to get give him £30M players for him to do his job well. As a coach of a top 6 club, he should have a list of names he would like to get in order to carry off his style of football. If we can't get MS, it's important we get someone who is at least of a similar type to him, so that we implement the style MP wants. With AVB and Moutinho, it's like we didn't get this one player who would have liked everything together, and so the style of football we played never evolved to a consistently exciting level, because we had no back up of a similar type.
If anything, I think this transfer shows sound strategy at the club. We aren't dragging our heels until deadline day and potentially getting shafted, we are moving swiftly on if we see a deal become too much hassle but more importantly we are getting the right types of players in that we need.
I would also say that Capoue's performances in these first few games have probably suggested to Poch that he's exactly the type of player that can work in the system he will employ, and therefore doesn't need to spend £30M on a player to relegate Capoue to second choice, when Capoue himself was signed only a year ago for £10M and lauded for his potential. Capoue has probably played his way into a starting spot, meaning we need a similar type as back up, not an MS type. And that means the £30M can be better spent elsewhere. Again, I think this is intelligent strategy and should be praised, not be looked at as a cause for concern.
I'm a big advocate of getting the manager the players he wants. And if a club doesn't do that, it's pretty quickly going to end in tears. Us not getting Moutinho for AVB was a shame, but actually the fault of the club wasn't not getting Mountinho, it was not getting AVB a similar type of player, or AVB's fault for not having back ups in mind and taking a 'Moutinho or bust' mentality. If a coach can only succeed with £30M first choice signings then he isn't the coach we want at a club like ours.
We hired Poch because he gets the best out of players. He improves them beyond recognition. He's a good fit for what we need, and we shouldn't need to get give him £30M players for him to do his job well. As a coach of a top 6 club, he should have a list of names he would like to get in order to carry off his style of football. If we can't get MS, it's important we get someone who is at least of a similar type to him, so that we implement the style MP wants. With AVB and Moutinho, it's like we didn't get this one player who would have liked everything together, and so the style of football we played never evolved to a consistently exciting level, because we had no back up of a similar type.
If anything, I think this transfer shows sound strategy at the club. We aren't dragging our heels until deadline day and potentially getting shafted, we are moving swiftly on if we see a deal become too much hassle but more importantly we are getting the right types of players in that we need.
I would also say that Capoue's performances in these first few games have probably suggested to Poch that he's exactly the type of player that can work in the system he will employ, and therefore doesn't need to spend £30M on a player to relegate Capoue to second choice, when Capoue himself was signed only a year ago for £10M and lauded for his potential. Capoue has probably played his way into a starting spot, meaning we need a similar type as back up, not an MS type. And that means the £30M can be better spent elsewhere. Again, I think this is intelligent strategy and should be praised, not be looked at as a cause for concern.
Interesting.
Whether or not you realise it, what your post mostly describes is actually AVB's failure as a coach rather than Levy's failure as a chairman.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Moreno - couldn't get him, although that wasn't our fault.
Musacchio - couldn't get him, third party issues.
Rodriguez - couldn't get him, Saints made a fuss.
Schneiderlin - couldn't get him, Saints made a fuss.
But since the 'where is your proof' and 'we're not Chelsea or City' chestnuts are flying around again, where is your proof that signing Schneiderlin will bankrupt us as it stands? Where is the sense in giving a man a five-year contract and then never giving him the players he wants because the transfer committee, in its infinite wisdom, decided to go for much cheaper alternatives instead?
We don't need to be Chelsea or City to decide that for once in our recent history, we're going to go all out to give the manager one of the major players he's asked for. Harry asked for a top striker in the January 2011 window: we faffed around with 30 million deadline day bids (ludicrous pieces of exhibitionist claptrap that we were never going to go through with) for Aguero, Rossi and Llorente, and ended the season 5th and out of the CL. Harry asked for Cahill (went to Chelsea) and Tevez (unaffordable) in January 2012 - we got Nelsen and Saha, endured a miserable second half to what was an originally promising season and ended up out of the Champions League. AVB asked for Moutinho, he got Dembele: we finished 5th and lost Bale. AVB asked for Hulk and Willian, he got Chadli and Lamela and was sacked before Christmas. Poch asked for Schneiderlin: we're going to give him Stambouli, and then expect him to still believe that we've backed him to the hilt. Won't stop us sacking him if he struggles, though.
Wonderful, the way that system works. For once, I thought it would be different: that for one window (not even his entire time at the club, but just that critical first window), we'd strive to give him exactly what he wanted and needed to do the job, with the understanding that he would be wise enough to only ask for targets he thought were achievable and realistic. Not what the committee decided was realistic, not what Levy deemed realistic, but what he thought realistic. That is trusting the manager you've given a 5 year contract to. And I'd suggest that for once, we should try that and see if that is what is best for Tottenham Hotspur: clearly, the vaunted committee deciding what the manager needs has not proved to be what is best for our club.
:lol:
You don't seriously think that that is the subtext of our failure (thus far, at least) to sign Musacchio and Schneiderlin?
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
I hate you because you often say what I'm thinking, but you manage to say it better than I can.
Just sayin'
Wow ok so I know it's youtube but...
[video=youtube;f9KPoZOXDYo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9KPoZOXDYo[/video]
I'm excited by this type of signing. Because no one has heard of him, and this suggests to me we're not just buying players to satisfy the fans thirst for new glory signings, but hopefully more to satisfy a particular want of the coach (Poch) to suit his system. Again it's only youtube and you can't judge a player on this but he looks aggressive, seems to read the game really well, anitcipates and intercepts well, has very tidy feet and good distribution. Pochettino has a philosophy not too dissimilar from Bielsa (I read that Bielsa wanted this guy too), and he ticks certain boxes that satisfy what Pochettino wants in his side. This is true of the signing of Fazio too. I'm sure he said something along the lines of wanting particular attributes that were different to what he currently has.
Pochettino certainly impresses me early doors, its everything I've wanted to see in a Spurs manager, someone who puts his philosophy ahead of big names.
[video=youtube;f9KPoZOXDYo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9KPoZOXDYo[/video]
I'm excited by this type of signing. Because no one has heard of him, and this suggests to me we're not just buying players to satisfy the fans thirst for new glory signings, but hopefully more to satisfy a particular want of the coach (Poch) to suit his system. Again it's only youtube and you can't judge a player on this but he looks aggressive, seems to read the game really well, anitcipates and intercepts well, has very tidy feet and good distribution. Pochettino has a philosophy not too dissimilar from Bielsa (I read that Bielsa wanted this guy too), and he ticks certain boxes that satisfy what Pochettino wants in his side. This is true of the signing of Fazio too. I'm sure he said something along the lines of wanting particular attributes that were different to what he currently has.
Pochettino certainly impresses me early doors, its everything I've wanted to see in a Spurs manager, someone who puts his philosophy ahead of big names.