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Another shooting in Murica
- Thread starter Roy1983
- Start date
Mr_B
Niko Kranjcar
I've been following this for the last couple of years http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...un/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database
the way this country is going, there will be a bloody civil war if it hasn't already started
the way this country is going, there will be a bloody civil war if it hasn't already started
When I changed the filters, it came up that of the 591 people killed by police, 53 were unarmed and shot and killed by the police. 53 seems like a high number of unarmed people to be shot and killed. Something is going wrong somewhere.
Hmmmm....
Mr_B
Niko Kranjcar
its a cliche, but the fuzz here really do shoot first and ask questions later. And people are afraid of cops here, in other countries, people feel they can go up to a policeman, ask for directions etc, that doesn't happen here.
And some of those killings on the guardian website when someone was armed, it was with a knife, so that again has to be an unneccesary killing.
If I were a cop in a country where most criminals own a gun, I'd err on the side of keeping myself alive - I have a family. Can anyone genuinely say they wouldn't?
That suggests you don't believe a knife is a deadly weapon. I hope for your own safety that's not the case.
As always, the Grauniad is being (intentionally IMO) disingenuous in order to create a narrative that fits their left wing agenda. Firstly the use of crowdsourced data (especially in the areas around which a cop has just shot a suspect) will always lead to inflated numbers of unarmed shootings.
Secondly, the stats they are using don't really tell us much. I'd be far more interested to see how many times a suspect was shot vs how many times a police officer pulled a firearm on a suspect. Looking at the correct data will probably show you just how rare shootings are, but that doesn't fit the Grauniad narrative of evil cop, poor oppressed criminal.
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Mr_B
Niko Kranjcar
I have a family too but don't see/feel the need to carry a gun, then again, I don't live in a red/open carry state.
You've clearly not heard of the expression "bringing a gun to a knife fight", but in all seriousness, couldn't a cop shoot said assailant in the leg or arm?
This isn't the guardian of the 1970's, their online paper has won numerous awards from both sides of the political spectrum, I'd advise you to read the reports, so many cases are still "under investigation" which means in many cases
the death of said suspect could have been avoided.
Rare? You don't think 524 people (as of today) killed in 2016 by the police is an issue?
The US (I live here) has a problem with police violence (and not just restricted to shootings, death in transport, cells, etc. aren't even counted)
- children (yes children), shooting people in a car with children in it, unarmed people in clear view, people already restrained, people crawling out of vehicles, list goes on and on.
- excessive force being quickly resorted to in cases of minor crimes (unknown reason stop, selling cigarettes, CDs, etc.) that result in death of suspect.
Your first comment is a major red flag, in the military you can have a shoot first mentality (even then you have limits as outside of actual war, you could create a war), as a cop, your priority is other people's safety, not your own. It's a volunteer occupation, you not comfortable with that? don't be a cop.
Poor training, cops who are obviously scared (call it cowardice, insecurity, fear for their own lives, whatever, their reactions are that of a very scared person) and massive lack of accountability for shooting, be it, actual drawing of weapon, shots fired, number of shots fired ..
Lets say you feel justified in drawing a weapon and firing, at what point is it reasonable to say you should stop? 3 shots, 6 shots, 20 shots? how about shooting unarmed people (so not a single shot fired back, 137 fudging times? -> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...o-car-after-chase-killing-unarmed-couple.html
The biggest problem is two fold
- Almost every case (haven't dug through it all), where even in light of clear video evidence, person actually not committing an actual crime (or at worst a misdemeanor), person not armed, person begging for their life and the police shoots and kills, the officers aren't even fired, far less successfully prosecuted.
- Anecdotally, the violence is majority against minorities which in light of point one, indicates an institutional problem.
Go watch some of the videos, the recent one where the police pull over a couple, the wife is screaming because she is afraid of her life, there are children in the back seat and the cop breaks the glass and kills the husband? wtf?
You complain about the left narrative of poor criminal (video shows that, clearly, without doubt), the right narrative of the criminal deserved it, or the cop's life was in danger is the one that really needs to be questioned.
Of course, anthing > 0 is an issue.
I just want to see the context in which that figure sits. If there were 1,000,000 incidents of police having to pull a gun and 524 deaths then it's a relatively rare occurrence. If there were 525 incidents of police having to pull a gun then it's very common.
I don't disagree that there's a problem with violence but I do disagree with the bolded bit.
If an officer believes that a suspect may be armed he or she has to proceed in a manner that is appropriate. If he or she feels as if the suspect might endanger their lives then they should ensure that cannot happen.
If you insist on police confirming absolutely that a suspect is going to shoot before shooting then you won't have any police left because they'll all have been shot.
I'm sure they aren't trained well enough and I'm sure they're scared. That doesn't quite fit the popular narrative of "Evil cop/defenceless innocent minority" though.
It's reasonable until they are no longer a threat.
In the case you linked, even under heavy bias the article states that the police claim the suspect was trying to run them over. In that case I really don't think "unarmed" is an accurate description at all - just ask the people of Nice. I would expect the police to shoot until the driver stops driving in that case. If that's 10 bullets each (doesn't sound so many when phrased that way) then so be it.
Without knowing more detail about the cases and how they are presented to the person adjudicating, I can't comment on what actions should have been taken with the officers.
I don't think this is nearly the race issue that people are trying so hard to make it out to be. What proportion of police are white? And what proportion of criminals from minorities? Taking that into account is there more violence against minorities than you'd expect or about the same?
Scara, it simply can't be dismissed
- 524 in any number of incidents is still way too high, basically Americans are being killed at a higher rate by their police than by people they are at war at (and yes the numbers back that up)
- You are ignoring the accountability part, and again are defaulting to "if I THINK I'm in danger, it is ok to shoot" too easy to do that mate. Really cops need to show, be held accountable to having made a reasonable effort to determine threat and avoid escalation. Key example, cop car pulls up to playground, 12 year old kid (by himself) is walking with what the police think is a gun, in TWO seconds the cops shoot the kid dead, acquitted, reasonable use of force? wtf? Really they couldn't have spoken to him? (with gun drawn), or drove to safer distance with car (that they still were in)?
- If you really want to argue the 137 shooting case, no point, the car was so not a threat that a cop walked up to the car, climbed on the hood and emptied his pistol into the occupants. This is after his buddies had fired 30/40/60 shots into car, and don't bring Nice into it, because now you are saying every civilian is a potential terrorist? You argue statistics re shooting, do you want to discuss the statistical odds of a cop running into a terrorist?
- So no opinion on 3 cops choking an unarmed man to death for selling cigarettes (on film, no gun, no resistance, no conviction), the phone camera world has taken away that "we don't know the details" piece, there are way too many documented cases of police violence here.
- Re the race, again, there are videos of Police at white protest rallies where the protesters are carrying rifles (open carry laws in US) and actually have their hands on their guns, but the police manage to "talk" them out of any further escalation, then you have the other evidence. It is actually backed up by scientific survey, the interesting result of a test (simulator where approaching suspect had either a phone/gun in hand and cop had to chose to shoot or not), black suspects were shot significantly more, the catch? they were shot significantly more by both white & black cops (whole separate discussion on culture there).
You also can't use statistics re minorities, because again, proven fact in US that minorities are policed more vigorously than whites (data shows if you are white drug user/buyer/seller in an upscale neighborhood, you are far less likely to be caught/prosecuted/convicted)
Like any problem, solution starts with Police acknowledging the issue, dealing with the offenders, being more transparent with the public (Dallas sadly enough is one of the better police departments in that aspect based on recent changes by last police chief)
- 524 in any number of incidents is still way too high, basically Americans are being killed at a higher rate by their police than by people they are at war at (and yes the numbers back that up)
- You are ignoring the accountability part, and again are defaulting to "if I THINK I'm in danger, it is ok to shoot" too easy to do that mate. Really cops need to show, be held accountable to having made a reasonable effort to determine threat and avoid escalation. Key example, cop car pulls up to playground, 12 year old kid (by himself) is walking with what the police think is a gun, in TWO seconds the cops shoot the kid dead, acquitted, reasonable use of force? wtf? Really they couldn't have spoken to him? (with gun drawn), or drove to safer distance with car (that they still were in)?
- If you really want to argue the 137 shooting case, no point, the car was so not a threat that a cop walked up to the car, climbed on the hood and emptied his pistol into the occupants. This is after his buddies had fired 30/40/60 shots into car, and don't bring Nice into it, because now you are saying every civilian is a potential terrorist? You argue statistics re shooting, do you want to discuss the statistical odds of a cop running into a terrorist?
- So no opinion on 3 cops choking an unarmed man to death for selling cigarettes (on film, no gun, no resistance, no conviction), the phone camera world has taken away that "we don't know the details" piece, there are way too many documented cases of police violence here.
- Re the race, again, there are videos of Police at white protest rallies where the protesters are carrying rifles (open carry laws in US) and actually have their hands on their guns, but the police manage to "talk" them out of any further escalation, then you have the other evidence. It is actually backed up by scientific survey, the interesting result of a test (simulator where approaching suspect had either a phone/gun in hand and cop had to chose to shoot or not), black suspects were shot significantly more, the catch? they were shot significantly more by both white & black cops (whole separate discussion on culture there).
You also can't use statistics re minorities, because again, proven fact in US that minorities are policed more vigorously than whites (data shows if you are white drug user/buyer/seller in an upscale neighborhood, you are far less likely to be caught/prosecuted/convicted)
Like any problem, solution starts with Police acknowledging the issue, dealing with the offenders, being more transparent with the public (Dallas sadly enough is one of the better police departments in that aspect based on recent changes by last police chief)
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Except reliable data on how many killings there have been doesn't exist.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/hundred...re-uncounted-in-federal-statistics-1417577504
It's not a requirement for local authorities to advise federal government when they kill someone. Bit mental that.....
NaijaSpurs
Les Ferdinand
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...being-shot-by-police-in-florida-a3300911.html
Unarmed black man with his arms in the air still gets shot by police
Unarmed black man with his arms in the air still gets shot by police
I find the graph in that story interesting:
https://www.graphiq.com/vlp/lPedD3rJcnX
Is anyone following up on the possibility that there may be some Asian/Pacific Islander police who are racist against White people running around shooting them? If not, why not?
https://www.graphiq.com/vlp/lPedD3rJcnX
Is anyone following up on the possibility that there may be some Asian/Pacific Islander police who are racist against White people running around shooting them? If not, why not?
So you can be unarmed, laying on the floor with both hands raised in the air and STILL get shot? I'd love to hear the excuses from the officers involved for that one.
I guess the reason is, it's Florida -- and in Florida, you can shoot a black guy if the mood takes you.
What a sh1thole.
I guess the reason is, it's Florida -- and in Florida, you can shoot a black guy if the mood takes you.
What a sh1thole.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Police killing people who are not breaking laws can not be justified with your brick analogy Scara. fudge off.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
They aren't because it's total gonads, whereas the continual hooting of unarmed and non-criminal black people by police in the US is a fact.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
apparently they had received reports of a man wandering around 'waving a gun'...aside from the tragedy that is a police officer who cannot differentiate between a toy train and a firearm, the truth is, his carer was shot because he was black!
All I'm saying is that of you're going to use that table to prove racism (and plenty of people are) then you either have to accept that there's some hierarchy of racism or there's some kind of reverse racism against asian/Pacific islanders that assumes they cannot be armed and dangerous from all races of police.
As you've said, there's clearly a problem with police shooting people in the US but I don't think it's accurate or helpful to restrict that statement to saying there's a problem with police shooting black people. I don't doubt there are some racist police, it would be impossible for an organisation that size not to have any but I don't think it's any more than that.
I also know a runaway news story when I see one. With the editing and publishing of "evidence" now in the hands of those who have no legal or journalistic requirement to be accurate or even handed, we now have a theme that has turned the story of "Incompetent police shoot person" into "Racist police shoot black person".
I don't think that angle is accurate and neither do I think it is helpful to race relations in the US.