Ange departs

[Gutter Boy]

I don’t think there are any other convincing options at the moment, Frank, Silva, Iraola.. nah stick with Ange.

Is a mid-table with limited resources, from a relegation fodder with large resources, still not a big upgrade?

 

[DubSpur]

Why dont you think Ange will have us anywhere near where we finished this season? Based on what?

Every quarter of both seasons he's been here has seen a decline in PPG compared to the previous quarter. That's regardless of who has been fit and available, or any other factor. It's a clear consistent trend that shows no sign of arresting other than via a view of pure faith that Ange will find a formula that balances his high intensity approach with a reduced injury risk and the dual demands of PL and Champions League fixtures.

I posted on here prior to this season's injury crisis that we were heading for our lowest points total in over a quarter of a century and that people could come back to me at the end of the season if I was wrong. The metrics are all there if you care to open your eyes to them, im sorry.

Well done on pivoting to all out attack on the Europa League having scraped into the later stages in a desperate attempt to save your job, abandoning everything you believe in footballing-wise. It DID bring us success unprecedented in my own memory.

However, there is literally zero evidence of sustainability of that platform and every evidence of the club staring at the abyss of a dogfight next season with the added demands of CL and a likely much better fist of PL survival made by the 3 promoted clubs.....

I'm neither Ange in or Ange out, both sides have merits to their arguments. There's no need to dismiss the other side's points or not have any context to the slide in results in the league.

How did we scrape into the latter stages of the Europa League? Finishing 4th in the group stage isn't scraping in. Every knockout round we deserved to win and deservedly won the trophy.

Everyone was complaining that he couldn't adapt and alter his approach to games. He does that and guess what, we know have some complaining that he adapted and altered his approach, you couldn't make it up...

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

My word.
How many times have you written this post recently?
I respectfully disagreed with you the first dozen or so times, but at this point? Come on...we get it.
Is there anything new you can add to your opinion?

Telling people to 'open their eyes'...come on!

These arguments are pretty circular in agree. Unsure that makes it unreasonable to question what makes people believe next season will be different under Ange to the previous two seasons.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I'm neither Ange in or Ange out, both sides have merits to their arguments. There's no need to dismiss the other side's points or not have any context to the slide in results in the league.

How did we scrape into the latter stages of the Europa League? Finishing 4th in the group stage isn't scraping in. Every knockout round we deserved to win and deservedly won the trophy.

Everyone was complaining that he couldn't adapt and alter his approach to games. He does that and guess what, we know have some complaining that he adapted and altered his approach, you couldn't make it up...

The performances in the group stage were poor. We drew with Rangers for example, but they created a lot of opportunities against us. As did Qarabag and Ferencvaros. We did get away with it in the group stage largely due to wasteful finishing on our opponents part.

What is the context to the slide in results? That's kind of my point. The context i am supposed to apply keeps changing depending on the circumstances people perceive there to be, but the slide in results keeps happening....

....nor can anyone seemingly offer any rationale as to why said contexts (fixture congestion creating injuries, fatigue and disruption) will not persist next season...

 

[Baleforce]

The end of June?????
We are already bordering on pathetic with it behaviour over this. If it even got remotely close to that time, we'd be fudged with regards to any advantages in the window, etc...

It was a joke regarding the level of inebriation.

 

[DubSpur]

The performances in the group stage were poor. We drew with Rangers for example, but they created a lot of opportunities against us. As did Qarabag and Ferencvaros. We did get away with it in the group stage largely due to wasteful finishing on our opponents part.

What is the context to the slide in results? That's kind of my point. The context i am supposed to apply keeps changing depending on the circumstances people perceive there to be, but the slide in results keeps happening....

Rangers was a terrible performance, but even if we had've lost it we would've still qualified in 4th. Qarabag we beat comfortably even with 10 men. Ferencvaros we were the better team and could have easily won by more, hitting the post twice. We got away with nothing in the group stage, we deservedly qualified.

The context in the slide in results has been stated over and over in here. Injuries and then jacking off a large chunk of the season to focus on Europa. That doesn't mean Ange is the right man and shouldn't have done better in the league with what was available. But there are valid points from both the Ange in and Ange out camps and they shouldn't be dismissed with an "open your eyes".

I don't envy Levy (or whoever makes the final call) having this decision to make.

 

[braineclipse]

Eddie Howe would not have looked out of place on that list while/after he was Bournemouth - i wonder would you consider him a good appointment now that he has done a reasonable/good job at Saudi Sportswashing Machine? Not that we'd have a chance of taking him now.

Personally, I think given the competitive nature of the PL any manager that proves himself at middling club would be as good a bet as any other to make a good go of things at a bigger club in the league.

Howe now again "looks good", having gotten Saudi Sportswashing Machine 5th and a trophy. But who would have wanted him when he struggled with injuries and combining PL and Europe and there was talk about him getting sacked last season.

Silva now looks good, as he did when at Watford. Who would have wanted him post Everton?

Iraola and Frank haven't had a failure like that "yet". But see them move to a bigger club and chances are that will still come at some point, and they will no longer look as good.

Knowing who could go on to become elite, succeed at that higher level as well, succeed with us is not a perfect science.

If Ange is sacked and then moves to a middling PL club I wouldn't be surprised at all if he ends up looking good. Matching the achievements of Frank, Iraola, Silva etc. Much of a muchness.

I have a pretty clear preference for "high risk high reward" type appointments assuming there aren't "low risk high reward" appointments available. For me keeping Ange fits that. I'd rather stick with him for that reason.

Unless there is someone the club feels are rather likely to become that next elite manager that we can appoint. I'm not seeing that personally amongst the linked candidates, but for sure don't know.

 

[Yiddo]

I don’t think there are any other convincing options at the moment, Frank, Silva, Iraola.. nah stick with Ange.

All if them have us competing for Europe next season with the squad we have. Ange will be here for 2 months, get sacked and we will be trying to get one of them in without an pre season etc and its then back to square 1 with another season wasted.

 

[billyiddo]

Howe now again "looks good", having gotten Saudi Sportswashing Machine 5th and a trophy. But who would have wanted him when he struggled with injuries and combining PL and Europe and there was talk about him getting sacked last season.

Silva now looks good, as he did when at Watford. Who would have wanted him post Everton?

Iraola and Frank haven't had a failure like that "yet". But see them move to a bigger club and chances are that will still come at some point, and they will no longer look as good.

Knowing who could go on to become elite, succeed at that higher level as well, succeed with us is not a perfect science.

If Ange is sacked and then moves to a middling PL club I wouldn't be surprised at all if he ends up looking good. Matching the achievements of Frank, Iraola, Silva etc. Much of a muchness.

I have a pretty clear preference for "high risk high reward" type appointments assuming there aren't "low risk high reward" appointments available. For me keeping Ange fits that. I'd rather stick with him for that reason.

Unless there is someone the club feels are rather likely to become that next elite manager that we can appoint. I'm not seeing that personally amongst the linked candidates, but for sure don't know.

I really would be surprised if Ange would look good at a middling PL club, id wager he would underperform all of the listed names at their respective clubs considerably. His tactic is not cut out for this level of competition and is exposed regularly, while not having all of his first choice XI available seems accepted as a valid excuse for our terrible points return over an extended period of time. At a middling club his starting XI will be weaker as a starting point and then his backups will be weaker - i really don't see how anyone could think he'd look better in a situation whereby he has less to work with in terms of quality on the pitch.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Rangers was a terrible performance, but even if we had've lost it we would've still qualified in 4th. Qarabag we beat comfortably even with 10 men. Ferencvaros we were the better team and could have easily won by more, hitting the post twice. We got away with nothing in the group stage, we deservedly qualified.

The context in the slide in results has been stated over and over in here. Injuries and then jacking off a large chunk of the season to focus on Europa. That doesn't mean Ange is the right man and shouldn't have done better in the league with what was available. But there are valid points from both the Ange in and Ange out camps and they shouldn't be dismissed with an "open your eyes".

I don't envy Levy (or whoever makes the final call) having this decision to make.

I'm not dismissing anyone's opinion with an open your eyes. I'm merely pointing out that the metrics indicating our end league position were there prior to the injuries, prior to the "jacking off the league season" and have been present since the first quarter of his first season. And they are there for anyone that cares to look. As I've said, i am not an Oracle of football and Ange could turn it around next season. I just dont see any evidence that suggests he would, though. That's not supposed to be an "open your eyes"/you're wrong attack, it is supposed to be a "what makes you so confident that the last season and three quarters is not going to continue next season" challenge...this is what they're asking me to have faith in happening (red trend v blue trend.....I'm asking, based on what?

 

[harr1984]

I really would be surprised if Ange would look good at a middling PL club, id wager he would underperform all of the listed names at their respective clubs considerably. His tactic is not cut out for this level of competition and is exposed regularly while not having all of his first choice XI available seems accepted as a valid excuse for our terrible points return over an extended period of time. At a middling club his starting XI will be weaker as a starting point and then his backups will be weaker - i really don't see how anyone could think he'd look better in a situation whereby he has less to work with in terms of quality on the pitch.

The point about not having his first choice available isn't just the quality of those players, it's the fact they do/don't play together week in week out - every week there were changes. Yes Ange at a middling club might have a perceived weaker team but if they are the guys usually playing together then they perform better - you see it not just with us when our first choice back 5 who all know each other well perform, but anywhere in football - when bigger teams rotate/make several changes to their usual lineup against weaker opposition, even if on paper they look stronger than the opposition the performance is poor and disjointed.

Didn't Brighton apparently want Ange as manager ahead of De Zebri? They seem to do well at recognising a decent manager.....

 

[billyiddo]

The point about not having his first choice available isn't just the quality of those players, it's the fact they do/don't play together week in week out - every week there were changes. Yes Ange at a middling club might have a perceived weaker team but if they are the guys usually playing together then they perform better - you see it not just with us when our first choice back 5 who all know each other well perform, but anywhere in football - when bigger teams rotate/make several changes to their usual lineup against weaker opposition, even if on paper they look stronger than the opposition the performance is poor and disjointed.

Didn't Brighton apparently want Ange as manager ahead of De Zebri? They seem to do well at recognising a decent manager.....

We've had a lot of games this season and a lot of minutes spread across the squad players - i don't see that as an excuse this far in. Players should be up to speed and the drop off shouldn't be so vast. During the worst of the crisis sure - that's more valid.

 

[Yiddo]

Even our second team should finish in the top 10.

 

[Kandi1977]

It's not black and white, and football never is, it's a business and has a lot of those rules but some of the intangibles that sports brings as well.

I guess my question is, lets assume you are a right, Ange could turn this around (to @Gutter Boy's point, it would be a massive turnaround) with all those things you mentioned, or .. you could hire a coach that potentially already has those attributes (brings senior coaching side, show ability to manage player workloads, little bit less tactically naïve, etc), what is the less risk approach, sticking with Ange or betting on change?

There's no guarantee no matter who you bring in. I don't think starting from scratch again would improve us faster than building on what we currently have.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Even our second team should finish in the top 10.

This is the thing right. Yeah we had a good run having to play a back 4 of Spence, Gray, Dragusin or Davies and Porro. There was a good run of games where they had to play together and by the end of it there were still no signs of basic organisational stuff like making sure there are no large gaps, that theres adequate cover to allow both full backs to push on. I mean they should all be drilled on this stuff on the training pitch week in, week out, so that even the lowest squad player can come into the system if needed and do a job. I'd say the injuries excuse a failure to qualify for Europe via the league this season, not 22 losses....

 

[Gazza]

Even our second team should finish in the top 10.

Depends on the manager

 

[spurspinter1]

Even our second team should finish in the top 10.

It's a particularly silly hypothetical because the league campaign is long and the whole squad plays a part. So if (for whatever reason) you choose to imagine that our "first team" disapears into thin air, when you get injuries / suspensions to the players that remain after you have Thanos'd our key players, are they getting replaced by kids from the academy to step in for large chunks of the season?

I don't know if you're wildy overestimating our back up players, or underestimating the overall quality of the league, possibly both, but however you look at it you're miles away from reality.

We were lucky this year with 3 bad teams coming up to effectively make getting relegated a nigh impossible task but that doesn't mean our academy kids would suddenly do better than the decent teams that finished around 10th.

 

[Yiddo]

It's a particularly silly hypothetical because the league campaign is long and the whole squad plays a part. So if (for whatever reason) you choose to imagine that our "first team" disapears into thin air, when you get injuries / suspensions to the players that remain after you have Thanos'd our key players, are they getting replaced by kids from the academy to step in for large chunks of the season?

I don't know if you're wildy overestimating our back up players, or underestimating the overall quality of the league, possibly both, but however you look at it you're miles away from reality.

We were lucky this year with 3 bad teams coming up to effectively make getting relegated a nigh impossible task but that doesn't mean our academy kids would suddenly do better than the decent teams that finished around 10th.

I’m not talking about academy kids, i’m talking about the 11 who played when our “best” players were out injured. Yes some of the first team were still playing, Porro, Sarr etc but the teams we were putting out should have done better. Under a coach with a plan and tactics i feel the second string team are good enough to finish in the top 10 this season. It would have only been an extra 18 points to achieve this, very doable for our back ups and a couple of kids sprinkled on top. We finished 17th because the tactics have been found out not because we chose to throw those games like people seem to think we have done.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I’m not talking about academy kids, i’m talking about the 11 who played when our “best” players were out injured. Yes some of the first team were still playing, Porro, Sarr etc but the teams we were putting out should have done better. Under a coach with a plan and tactics i feel the second string team are good enough to finish in the top 10 this season. It would have only been an extra 18 points to achieve this, very doable for our back ups and a couple of kids sprinkled on top. We finished 17th because the tactics have been found out not because we chose to throw those games like people seem to think we have done.

Yeah "we've thrown the league" meaning what? That just because Romero and VDV are being rested that it means Danso and Davies are not trained or drilled as a competent defensive unit and we have to watch them flail about getting run ragged by Palace taking pot-shots at our goal (when a properly trained and motivated squad that isn't being rested should be busting a gut to make a case for being involved in the final)?

 

[Raziel]

I’m not talking about academy kids, i’m talking about the 11 who played when our “best” players were out injured. Yes some of the first team were still playing, Porro, Sarr etc but the teams we were putting out should have done better. Under a coach with a plan and tactics i feel the second string team are good enough to finish in the top 10 this season. It would have only been an extra 18 points to achieve this, very doable for our back ups and a couple of kids sprinkled on top. We finished 17th because the tactics have been found out not because we chose to throw those games like people seem to think we have done.

Most people just don't get how bad we were

- Not lose away to Wolves,
- Not lose at home to Leicester, Everton, Ipswich, Brighton, Palace
- Not draw at home to Wolves, Fulham

That's 22 points without getting a better result against anyone in top 6