Ange in or out?

[Robspur12]

The weird thing is when Ange has done a more pragmatic setup we have performed quite well, so it is not that he is incapable. Frankfurt being the most recent example, but there have been a few others that escape me now. I remember the Emirates Marketing Project home game last season which we narrowly lost but were unlucky to as one example. But in subsequent games he then reverts to type....

I ve said the same thing before. He is only pragmatic when his back is up against the wall. If he feels that the game is not a "must win," he reverts to type. There are 2 things wrong with that in my opinion

1) in terms of league games I think he has gotten his priorities utterly wrong and that emphasizes again his lack of experience. Not only has he not managed an elite football team, he has also not managed somewhere with the sums of money associated with the PL. Perhaps he doesn't understand how much a poor league season actually costs the club. I would love to win a trophy, to sit there like Saudi Sportswashing Machine at this moment, but, importantly they haven't let the trophy win prevent them from going after a Champions League place as well. On the other hand, Ange has put all his eggs in the EL basket, without thinking why league form is important.

2) it appears that his team are not drilled in defending. So his "pragmatism" involves sitting back in numbers rather than going forward but against Frankfurt we still gave up high quality chances which they failed to put away.

 

[monkeybarry]

Deliberately? No. Ineptly, incompetently, unqualifiedly, useless fuсking snake-oil salesmanly? Yes.

Oddly, that's not really on him.
He's not a snake oil salesman at all - quite the opposite. He's honest about what he sells, it's just what he sells doesn't work in the PL and he can't/won't do the R&D to make it happen.

Everyone has a level - his is below the PL.

 

[Raziel]

Oddly, that's not really on him.
He's not a snake oil salesman at all - quite the opposite. He's honest about what he sells, it's just what he sells doesn't work in the PL and he can't/won't do the R&D to make it happen.

Everyone has a level - his is below the PL.

- He's had a system that has worked for 29 years at every level below this
- Previous setbacks/hiccups have been resolved by doubling down on said system
- System does not work at PL level

So at one level
- He believes it will work. it's just injuries/luck/getting players aligned/whatever

But at the other
- When does self awareness kick in? it's been 2 years, fudge me, do some self evaluation, who the fudge in the club is letting this delusion run?

 

[Mikey10]

- He's had a system that has worked for 29 years at every level below this
- Previous setbacks/hiccups have been resolved by doubling down on said system
- System does not work at PL level

So at one level
- He believes it will work. it's just injuries/luck/getting players aligned/whatever

But at the other
- When does self awareness kick in? it's been 2 years, fudge me, do some self evaluation, who the fudge in the club is letting this delusion run?

The View from the Lane podcasts are particularly good at the minute. Today’s one discusses how losing has become normalised under Ange, and how the players have been allowed to think it’s okay to lose (We were playing our football the right way…it’s not the right way to win a game…we can’t be expected to compete as we have too many injuries…we’re focusing on the EL etc.).

A bit of discussion on how all of this, and the poor man-management of individual players, might be impacting the younger players.

Conclusion: there’s likely to be a lot of damage to unpick.

 

[Raziel]

The View from the Lane podcasts are particularly good at the minute. Today’s one discusses how losing has become normalised under Ange, and how the players have been allowed to think it’s okay to lose (We were playing our football the right way…it’s not the right way to win a game…we can’t be expected to compete as we have too many injuries…we’re focusing on the EL etc.).

A bit of discussion on how all of this, and the poor man-management of individual players, might be impacting the younger players.

Conclusion: there’s likely to be a lot of damage to unpick.

There will be, it's the same as United will take years to recover from OGS (they drifted for 3+ years)

It's why I wanted Ange out, even if it meant Mason/some interim for 15 games, it sent a message of accountability.

 

[glorygloryeze]

There will be, it's the same as United will take years to recover from OGS (they drifted for 3+ years)

It's why I wanted Ange out, even if it meant Mason/some interim for 15 games, it sent a message of accountability.

Well, what does that tell you about the ambition and footballing nous of our owners?

 

[Raziel]

Well, what does that tell you about the ambition and footballing nous of our owners?

Again mate, you tend to jumble multiple things into one statement

- Our owners (Lewis/ENIC) are now and have always been absentee landlords, they have given the Chairman a set of parameters (self funded) to operate in, and that's about it. That's why I refer back to the "where is the money" conversation, because people seem to think Levy can just will it into being.
- Our chairman (as unpopular as he is), has always seen the route to success as -> increase income of club -> increases spending in squad -> increases chances of success (this people interpret as "only care about the business while ignoring the obvious intention/objective")

So to answer your two questions specifically

- The current owners ambition is to be as successful as the money the club generates can facilitate. Which btw, is pretty much how most normal businesses run and shouldn't be seen as some awful thing. The issue is we live in a league where people/states dump money into clubs without any worry about financial consequence and that puts us at a disadvantage, I'm still not making the connect between that and ambition, e.g. maybe Levy calculated another 300M funded through more debt could give us a shot at title but adds a x% chance of club being in significant financial difficulties if we don't qualify for CL next 3 years in a row (obviously making things up), and then made a risk/reward call that right now, it's safer/better for long term club interests to stay the course vs take the risk. Is that what you are calling lack of ambition?

- Re football nous, in my pretty long post a few pages back I showed the circumstance ENIC/Levy have operated in, I think they got a lot more right than people would give them credit for. My biggest criticism of them right now is the failure to act on Ange (not the appointment, you will always get appointments/player purchases wrong, it's what you do to correct and how quickly), Chelsea has appointed a manger with less than 2 years experience, the Scum appointed an assistant manager (and our fans think that's ambition), Bayern has appointed a guy who got Burnley relegated, against all of those Ange was significantly more qualified at point of hiring, it didn't work out, the mistake is sticking with him (again, probably contrary to fan views), if they had fired him in December, new manager in and we were within a couple of wins of European spots, you accept, move on. That's why I'd say this season, there has been a significant lack of that football nous, that willingness to make a fast/ruthless decision, hence my views tend to circle back to who's new in the football decisions at club vs. who's been there the long term (we never seemed to hesitate before?)

 

[sirharolddove]

Nuno appeared just out of his depth. But he had humility and decency. I never remember anyone playing the man not the ball with him.

Ange on the other hand has been rude, chippy and odorous the whole way through. He deserves being called out bluntly for his lack of ability.

add 'smells bad' to the negative list!

 

[glorygloryeze]

Again mate, you tend to jumble multiple things into one statement

- Our owners (Lewis/ENIC) are now and have always been absentee landlords, they have given the Chairman a set of parameters (self funded) to operate in, and that's about it. That's why I refer back to the "where is the money" conversation, because people seem to think Levy can just will it into being.
- Our chairman (as unpopular as he is), has always seen the route to success as -> increase income of club -> increases spending in squad -> increases chances of success (this people interpret as "only care about the business while ignoring the obvious intention/objective")

So to answer your two questions specifically

- The current owners ambition is to be as successful as the money the club generates can facilitate. Which btw, is pretty much how most normal businesses run and shouldn't be seen as some awful thing. The issue is we live in a league where people/states dump money into clubs without any worry about financial consequence and that puts us at a disadvantage, I'm still not making the connect between that and ambition, e.g. maybe Levy calculated another 300M funded through more debt could give us a shot at title but adds a x% chance of club being in significant financial difficulties if we don't qualify for CL next 3 years in a row (obviously making things up), and then made a risk/reward call that right now, it's safer/better for long term club interests to stay the course vs take the risk. Is that what you are calling lack of ambition?

- Re football nous, in my pretty long post a few pages back I showed the circumstance ENIC/Levy have operated in, I think they got a lot more right than people would give them credit for. My biggest criticism of them right now is the failure to act on Ange (not the appointment, you will always get appointments/player purchases wrong, it's what you do to correct and how quickly), Chelsea has appointed a manger with less than 2 years experience, the Scum appointed an assistant manager (and our fans think that's ambition), Bayern has appointed a guy who got Burnley relegated, against all of those Ange was significantly more qualified at point of hiring, it didn't work out, the mistake is sticking with him (again, probably contrary to fan views), if they had fired him in December, new manager in and we were within a couple of wins of European spots, you accept, move on. That's why I'd say this season, there has been a significant lack of that football nous, that willingness to make a fast/ruthless decision, hence my views tend to circle back to who's new in the football decisions at club vs. who's been there the long term (we never seemed to hesitate before?)

I think it would be fair to say the current situation is a culmination of several previous issues.
We have appointed far more lauded and capable managers than Ange and more lauded than the ones you reference at Arsenal, Chelsea, Bayrern etc.
The issue isn't (wasn't) appointing a certain level of manager per se (although i think it has become more of an issue for us recently, which i will get to later) but it's the tools we garnish said manager with in relation to who we call our peers. When it suits we will say "of course we can employ a manager at this time, we can obviously double/quadruple their salary" etc etc.
Well, you could argue what's the point if we can't similarly say the same about players that said manager would want to get the team playing their way.
We paid the big bucks to get the likes of Jose, Conte but what's the point if we're not going to push the boat out in a way that they are used to operating and getting their success in? What's the point in manager being the best paid in the league when 6 or 7 teams pay higher wages on average?

Which brings me to the issue i think we have found ourselves in re Ange: you'll remember the botched manager search of summer 2021 when we lurched from the likes of ETH, Paulo Fonseca to Gattuso and eventually Nuno (after a fleeting attempt at getting Conte).
That showed our lack of footballing nous and we eventually were able to sweet-talk Conte into joining us belatedly. Face saved belatedly.

However, when he then went on that rant (not that i agreed with his rant per se, but you could see it coming especially with the Spence purchase) our standing amongst the coaching world would definitely have taken at hit in my view, so much so that unless we were prepared to put our neck out to pay the release fee for Slot and his backroom staff, he wasn't prepared to himself push to ask Feyenoord to leave and come to us: our reputation amongst managers isn't what it was due to the previous attempts to look ambitious and it's much more of a reputational risk than would be worth for many, hence we have been forced to be lumbered with Ange (who showed way back how out of his depth he has been).
If we have no Europe next season i think this will be become even more stark this summer.

 

[Baleforce]

I think it would be fair to say the current situation is a culmination of several previous issues.
We have appointed far more lauded and capable managers than Ange and more lauded than the ones you reference at Arsenal, Chelsea, Bayrern etc.
The issue isn't (wasn't) appointing a certain level of manager per se (although i think it has become more of an issue for us recently, which i will get to later) but it's the tools we garnish said manager with in relation to who we call our peers. When it suits we will say "of course we can employ a manager at this time, we can obviously double/quadruple their salary" etc etc.
Well, you could argue what's the point if we can't similarly say the same about players that said manager would want to get the team playing their way.
We paid the big bucks to get the likes of Jose, Conte but what's the point if we're not going to push the boat out in a way that they are used to operating and getting their success in? What's the point in manager being the best paid in the league when 6 or 7 teams pay higher wages on average?

Which brings me to the issue i think we have found ourselves in re Ange: you'll remember the botched manager search of summer 2021 when we lurched from the likes of ETH, Paulo Fonseca to Gattuso and eventually Nuno (after a fleeting attempt at getting Conte).
That showed our lack of footballing nous and we eventually were able to sweet-talk Conte into joining us belatedly. Face saved belatedly.

However, when he then went on that rant (not that i agreed with his rant per se, but you could see it coming especially with the Spence purchase) our standing amongst the coaching world would definitely have taken at hit in my view, so much so that unless we were prepared to put our neck out to pay the release fee for Slot and his backroom staff, he wasn't prepared to himself push to ask Feyenoord to leave and come to us: our reputation amongst managers isn't what it was due to the previous attempts to look ambitious and it's much more of a reputational risk than would be worth for many, hence we have been forced to be lumbered with Ange (who showed way back how out of his depth he has been).
If we have no Europe next season i think this will be become even more stark this summer.

if only we'd had more nous and landed ETH, Paulo Fonseca or Gattuso eh...

 

[lurker of old]

Great posts above from Raziel and glorygloryeze. It's not for want of trying but it highlights how the Chairman really lost his way after appointing Jose, and we can only hope that the new CEO is the Deus ex machina we need. The good news is that once Ange is gone, the only way is up, surely? We have a squad which is sufficiently talented to appeal to many managers, and any half-decent manager will do better.

 

[Raziel]

Great posts above from Raziel and glorygloryeze. It's not for want of trying but it highlights how the Chairman really lost his way after appointing Jose, and we can only hope that the new CEO is the Deus ex machina we need. The good news is that once Ange is gone, the only way is up, surely? We have a squad which is sufficiently talented to appeal to many managers, and any half-decent manager will do better.

Do better will happen, the question will be (as it should have been this season)

- Does the club (today, not 5,10,15 years ago) give the manager the tools that will be the difference between 7th (I think this squad is more than capable but to be objective) and actually a CL spot and/or challenging for a cup

 

[IulianSteaua]

I think it’s going to take a very good manager to get us up to a competitive mid table next season.

I disagree, ai think we have a good team. There are some good players and some very good players within our ranks. We are around 4th to 6th place imo, and a good manager can bring us there.

 

[Muttley]

I disagree, ai think we have a good team. There are some good players and some very good players within our ranks. We are around 4th to 6th place imo, and a good manager can bring us there.

Better squads are City, Pool and Arsenal. I don't see any other better squads. We are easily on a par with the others.

 

[Sandman]

Better squads are City, Pool and Arsenal. I don't see any other better squads. We are easily on a par with the others.

this is generally how I feel too. I look at Forest, Villa Chelsea and I am not clamoring for their players. But we have a lot of potential at the moment and no cohesiveness. So it sounds unfathamoable that we think this way but I look at us and think with a bit more pragmatism and some defensive srategy and cohesion and we dan go places.