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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 84 73.7%

  • Out

    Votes: 30 26.3%
  • Total voters
    114
Diamond Lights said:
Look, i dont want Ange bombed out, clearly the fans are getting divided. what i need to understand, and what i struggle to understand, are the Ange supports who are so blindly supportive of the methods and tactics. Can someone explain to me why he's not at fault for things? Or the guarentee that eventually "it will come good". based on what?

new signings? we dont make them, certainly not at the level needed to put this team into a position of superiority. How will a 19 year old CHILD suddenly transform this team?

speaking of which, a lot of "we eventually will work when the players get the system". But as we have seen, some players are average and wont be here in 3 years in this superior system under this superior manager. Bissouma? gone. Johnson? if we want to win the league he wont be a starter. Madders? Same.

How can it suddenly work with new players if we need massive upgrades of quality in those players but we never sign such players?

right now, it's a bit of a house of cards and i'm sure there's a great team in there, but the manager at the moment is costing us games. you cannot continually just say "this is how we play regardless". Heaven forbid, what if Ange is wrong? has that ever been considered as an option?

View attachment 18284
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To have real conversations, you need better data

- That fudging graphic is why people who are inclined to support Ange will be dismissive, games in December? really out of 27 games this season or how many ever in 2024, we think the sample size of 7 is relevant? and that's ignoring the injuries

To go deeper
- Spurs is not challenging for the league right now, and yes, I'll hear the fudging lecture about ambition, dead beat owners, on and on, someone remind me again how often Spurs has won the league pre ENIC? in a 120+ years?
- The first 10 games of last season, wins against City, United, Villa, West Ham, etc show it can work, more interesting (a stat no one is picking up on), we will have 5 attacking players with double figures in goals this season (pretty much guaranteed). And half of those players people think are useless/washed up
- No team (another fudging fan delusion) has 11 WC starters, far less 25, yes, some players are just good PL quality, they are supposed to keep the system working and give the platform for the elite players to make an impact.

Let me ask you a question
- Add a quality DM & say Mbuemo to the RW of this team and you don't think it would be better? add LB & GK cover? and that's not even going into fantasy land and saying sell Richi and buy Gyokores as 2nd CF

Could Ange's tactics and system have already hit it's ceiling? sure, could his inability to be 15% more adaptive be his undoing? probably likely but the conversations seem to be to skewed to "this guy has never managed anyone" (not true), has no tactics (not true) and no players will fix this (doubtful)
 
Raziel said:
To have real conversations, you need better data

- That fudging graphic is why people who are inclined to support Ange will be dismissive, games in December? really out of 27 games this season or how many ever in 2024, we think the sample size of 7 is relevant? and that's ignoring the injuries

To go deeper
- Spurs is not challenging for the league right now, and yes, I'll hear the fudging lecture about ambition, dead beat owners, on and on, someone remind me again how often Spurs has won the league pre ENIC? in a 120+ years?
- The first 10 games of last season, wins against City, United, Villa, West Ham, etc show it can work, more interesting (a stat no one is picking up on), we will have 5 attacking players with double figures in goals this season (pretty much guaranteed). And half of those players people think are useless/washed up
- No team (another fudging fan delusion) has 11 WC starters, far less 25, yes, some players are just good PL quality, they are supposed to keep the system working and give the platform for the elite players to make an impact.

Let me ask you a question
- Add a quality DM & say Mbuemo to the RW of this team and you don't think it would be better? add LB & GK cover? and that's not even going into fantasy land and saying sell Richi and buy Gyokores as 2nd CF

Could Ange's tactics and system have already hit it's ceiling? sure, could his inability to be 15% more adaptive be his undoing? probably likely but the conversations seem to be to skewed to "this guy has never managed anyone" (not true), has no tactics (not true) and no players will fix this (doubtful)
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We need a left wing over a right wing more
 
Raziel said:
Not taking into account players who can play both sides

LW - Son, Wilson, Richi, Werner, Moore
RW - Deki, Johnson

RW is light, especially as you want Deki in 8/10 role more central, A hustler/physical presence on RW (Bowen, Mbeumo) would also add impact
Click to expand...
Just had a young right wing join us
 
Bedfordspurs said:
IMO because he and played here already in this country and ha sheen playing men’s football for longer and has played more games
Bergvall isn’t an issue but loaning out Devine has left us short of him when he could have been a good option IMO
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He hasn't played mens football for longer or played more games. Bergvall has played the last couple of years in Sweden, compared to Devine playing league 1 and championship.
 
DubSpur said:
He hasn't played mens football for longer or played more games. Bergvall has played the last couple of years in Sweden, compared to Devine playing league 1 and championship.
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Swedish league is low standard
And Devine has been here and played in a couple of divisions in this country
For me that means more as a player
But as I said. It’s not about Bergvall being inferior but more about us having options which we need
 
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Diamond Lights said:
Look, i dont want Ange bombed out, clearly the fans are getting divided. what i need to understand, and what i struggle to understand, are the Ange supports who are so blindly supportive of the methods and tactics. Can someone explain to me why he's not at fault for things? Or the guarentee that eventually "it will come good". based on what?

new signings? we dont make them, certainly not at the level needed to put this team into a position of superiority. How will a 19 year old CHILD suddenly transform this team?

speaking of which, a lot of "we eventually will work when the players get the system". But as we have seen, some players are average and wont be here in 3 years in this superior system under this superior manager. Bissouma? gone. Johnson? if we want to win the league he wont be a starter. Madders? Same.

How can it suddenly work with new players if we need massive upgrades of quality in those players but we never sign such players?

right now, it's a bit of a house of cards and i'm sure there's a great team in there, but the manager at the moment is costing us games. you cannot continually just say "this is how we play regardless". Heaven forbid, what if Ange is wrong? has that ever been considered as an option?

View attachment 18284
Click to expand...

I broadly agree with this but come at it from the opposite side.
There is no guarantee that anything will work out with Ange.
There are definitely a few on the Ange in side that believe in him in an almost faith based way.

At the moment it's hard to judge him either way because of the ridiculous injury crisis.
The squad was small enough as it was.

There was a reason he was hired. It wasn't because he won the Scottish League etc. It was his style of play. We wouldn't hire Neil Lennon etc.
If he came in and changed that style of play, then what was the point in hiring him?
Ten Hag did that at United. He played his way for 2 games, and went back to Ole-ball after criticism from Neville and Carragher.

Ange might not work out.
But there are signs of improvement. Our attacking play is much better than last season for instance.
There are also other signs though. I accept that

It kinda comes down to whether you think Levy will go with this long term project.
If he goes randomly goes "fudge it", sacks Ange, Lange, Munn etc and gets Paratici and the next suffer ball manager in then the whole Ange experiment was a huge waste of time.
 
Modric THFC said:
I broadly agree with this but come at it from the opposite side.
There is no guarantee that anything will work out with Ange.
There are definitely a few on the Ange in side that believe in him in an almost faith based way.

At the moment it's hard to judge him either way because of the ridiculous injury crisis.
The squad was small enough as it was.

There was a reason he was hired. It wasn't because he won the Scottish League etc. It was his style of play. We wouldn't hire Neil Lennon etc.
If he came in and changed that style of play, then what was the point in hiring him?
Ten Hag did that at United. He played his way for 2 games, and went back to Ole-ball after criticism from Neville and Carragher.

Ange might not work out.
But there are signs of improvement. Our attacking play is much better than last season for instance.
There are also other signs though. I accept that

It kinda comes down to whether you think Levy will go with this long term project.
If he goes randomly goes "fudge it", sacks Ange, Lange, Munn etc and gets Paratici and the next suffer ball manager in then the whole Ange experiment was a huge waste of time.
Click to expand...

Lange and Munn's role is to ensure the next manager is a continuation (not the huge swing from one kind of manager to another) regardless of if we sack Ange next week, next summer or in 3 years.

This squad can play 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, a couple of additions and you could do 3 at the back as well (little light right now), you have wide players who can stay wide or cut in, and you have at least 5 players capable of contributing 10+ goals a season, it's not a bad place to start.

Any reasonably progressive manager that allows players to have some level of expression could build on this team
 
Modric THFC said:
I broadly agree with this but come at it from the opposite side.
There is no guarantee that anything will work out with Ange.
There are definitely a few on the Ange in side that believe in him in an almost faith based way.

At the moment it's hard to judge him either way because of the ridiculous injury crisis.
The squad was small enough as it was.

There was a reason he was hired. It wasn't because he won the Scottish League etc. It was his style of play. We wouldn't hire Neil Lennon etc.
If he came in and changed that style of play, then what was the point in hiring him?
Ten Hag did that at United. He played his way for 2 games, and went back to Ole-ball after criticism from Neville and Carragher.

Ange might not work out.
But there are signs of improvement. Our attacking play is much better than last season for instance.
There are also other signs though. I accept that

It kinda comes down to whether you think Levy will go with this long term project.
If he goes randomly goes "fudge it", sacks Ange, Lange, Munn etc and gets Paratici and the next suffer ball manager in then the whole Ange experiment was a huge waste of time.
Click to expand...

I think he was hired more for his style of management than for his style of play.
He doesn't suffer fools, above or below him, he wants buy in, not just to a style of play, not just to him but to an ethos.
It's not about being the best, it's about being your best and the belief that will make the team the best.
He wants players to take responsibility not just for their form but for their progress.
If you struggle but are prepared to learn and grow he will support you, if not, you're gone.
 
Junior19 said:
No, it doesn't have to be, but equally to us being married to a certain way of playing under Ange, we were married to a certain system and way of playing under the mentioned gentlemen. And while Mourinho to a certain extent are known to tailor his approach to the opposition, the base foundation is the very same from game 1 to game 38. Thus the comparison.

The main point about the tactical "inflexibility" of Ange is that it would not have changed the personell he had at his disposal yesterday, no matter how much flexibility he had shown.

Ok, so let's do the experiment then. Let's drop down 40 yards, stop playing out from the back. We've got Solanke on top, against Van Dijk and Gomez, and we're pelting long balls up towards him. Son, Kulu and Maddison are pressing low block in front of Sarr and Bissouma, who covers the back four from yesterday. Against Diaz, Gakpo, Szobozlai and Salah. And the rest of them.
Sarr and Bissouma, hardly touching the ball, just covering the areas between defenders, staying in position at all times, while the ball flies over their head.

And people seriously expect that to end well? I stand by my previous statement, we would have lost 99 of 100 games played that way. It may not have been by shipping 6 goals, but we would most certainly NEVER have scored 3 that way.

We were odds-on to lose that game no matter what, as soon as we lost both Cuti and VdV, and Davies as well. It was an uphill battle from the very beginning, and bar a moment of magic (which we know can happen, but rarely do) it was always going to be a rough afternoon at the Lane.
If we hadn't lost midfielders as well, we might have cobbled together a different solution, but I don't think that would have made a horsebrick of difference regardless.

It seems to me that some are dreaming of using racecars as plowing tractors, and expect a good harvest.
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Do you not think that you've just picked the complete opposite side of the pendulum in your counter argument though? What would happen if the defence gave themselves just 5-10 yards? What would happen if the full-backs played a little more wider and didn't immediately come so much into that inside channel and leave the wider space open. Perhaps, just a few tweaks here and there based on the top of the table opposition. Then let the weaker sides in the division worry about us, especially in our stadium, and full strength.

I couldn't unfortunately watch the game but noticed that the radio commentary team said that Gravenberch, who normally plays central was shifted over slightly to nullify Madds. Just a subtle 5-10 yards over as a pre-match tactic by Slot. It certainly shows up in his heatmap on WhoScored.

It does occur to me that if it is good enough for Slot to do that type of tweak, then any manager in this division should be open to it. I'm always giving Ange the benefit of the doubt that he does make allowances for our opposition, but there's never too much evidence. The players should get used to it in my opinion.

As you say though, we were totally up against it. You could put those 20 player squads against each other over and over, and only red cards would level the playing field.
 
Diamond Lights said:
Look, i dont want Ange bombed out, clearly the fans are getting divided. what i need to understand, and what i struggle to understand, are the Ange supports who are so blindly supportive of the methods and tactics. Can someone explain to me why he's not at fault for things? Or the guarentee that eventually "it will come good". based on what?

new signings? we dont make them, certainly not at the level needed to put this team into a position of superiority. How will a 19 year old CHILD suddenly transform this team?

speaking of which, a lot of "we eventually will work when the players get the system". But as we have seen, some players are average and wont be here in 3 years in this superior system under this superior manager. Bissouma? gone. Johnson? if we want to win the league he wont be a starter. Madders? Same.

How can it suddenly work with new players if we need massive upgrades of quality in those players but we never sign such players?

right now, it's a bit of a house of cards and i'm sure there's a great team in there, but the manager at the moment is costing us games. you cannot continually just say "this is how we play regardless". Heaven forbid, what if Ange is wrong? has that ever been considered as an option?

View attachment 18284
Click to expand...

What a difference a year makes… hopefully by next December we’ll have the new Rodri as #6 who makes everything click.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740487439414657353
 
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Bedfordspurs said:
By targeting the guy who plays the ball out the least effective way
It’s not new
But it’s gonna happen when you have your reserves play
I do think we targetged their right side but Sonny didn’t do anything right
Click to expand...

I think the other part of this is that Pedro is knackered and on fumes right now, meaning he is really not reliable help.
 
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