Ange in or out?

[Mikey10]

Worrying, but injuries and so on (or so they say). We're 11th after 17 matches. We need to get a fit squad for a change, sign some players in January and see some real improvement in consistency from February onwards. I hope we will, but I'm not exactly optimistic about it. Our spending in the next month will be decisive.

It wasn’t all wine and roses before the injuries; our form has been consistently inconsistent for over a year now. That’s because that’s what this system will bring you. Some big wins, some big losses. Players asked to play at the limit, plenty of injuries as a result. 1.4 points averaged over a 12 month period; mid-table form.

I’m now convinced that’s how it stays. It’s the manager’s philosophy and any issues with it working in the PL just cause him to double down further.

 

[Spoonman]

It wasn’t all wine and roses before the injuries; our form has been consistently inconsistent for over a year now. That’s because that’s what this system will bring you. Some big wins, some big losses. Players asked to play at the limit, plenty of injuries as a result. 1.4 points averaged over a 12 month period; mid-table form.

I’m now convinced that’s how it stays. It’s the manager’s philosophy and any issues with it working in the PL just cause him to double down further.

Hard to argue with any of that. His stubbornness will be his downfall.

 

[Yiddo]

I don’t get how it gets better, what going to happen that has not already happened after 18 months? Its a process he says but unless he makes wholesale changes i can’t see this getting any better.

 

[DubaiSpur]

There is no doubt in my mind that the constant overload down our right hand side that our opposition do to us is very damaging. It's not quite as bad on our left, but it is still a major problem. Any which way they come, we will always be 3 on 3, or 4 on 4, or 5 on 5 but we are never 4 or 5 on 3, or 5 or 6 on 4 etc. We also play mostly without an orthodox number 6.

If he eventually gets sacked, tactically, this is where it will have happened.

A lot of his approach, tactically, makes intuitive sense to me. Press high up, compress the space, get comfortable playing in that tight space, don't let opponents breathe. You can see the underlying sense there - if you have world-class players to pull it off, it will be a great system.

The two areas that make zero sense to me though, are a) underlapping fullbacks, and b) touchline-hugging wingers. Because our squad cannot handle this, but he dogmatically insists on playing this way, to our clear and constant detriment.

Udogie and Porro made their names as touchline-hugging wing backs. To play as adjunct central midfielders both misuses their talents and leaves us with yawning gaps on the flanks where they should be, allowing easy attacks against us down the flanks.

And in terms of wingers, Son does his best work cutting inside, not taking players on down the outside - he doesn't have the pace nor the skills for that. You are literally putting square pegs in round holes having him on the touchline, and Udogie cutting inside. They both suffer for it.

If his guess is that he can slowly bed players into this system over the years, it still makes little sense, because players like Mikey Moore, our future, are at their best cutting in off the left.

Baffling.

 

[Kompakted]

So he's got a good 10 years left (although I'll admit, he doesn't look the healthiest).

5 years at a little PL club like Brighton or West Ham and then 5 years of success with us. But we're a jump too far too soon.

It's the inexperience across the board:
- Ange highest level is SPL as you say.

Below him his coaching staff are:
- Matt Wells - Senior assistant - 36 years old
- Mile Jedinak - Assistant - 40 years old
- Ryan Mason - Assistant - 33 years old
- Nick Montgomery - Asisstant - 43 years old
- Sergio Raimundo - Assistant - 40 years old
- Rob Burch - GK coach - 41 years old
- Michael Cooper - Senior fitness coach - 35 years old
- John Thrower - fitness coach - 31 years old
- Jordan Slack - fitness coach - 29 years old
- Matt Bickley - fitness coach - 34 years old

And other than one or two snippets, none of them have experience of coaching in the first team in a top European league.

 

[Daisuk]

It wasn’t all wine and roses before the injuries; our form has been consistently inconsistent for over a year now. That’s because that’s what this system will bring you. Some big wins, some big losses. Players asked to play at the limit, plenty of injuries as a result. 1.4 points averaged over a 12 month period; mid-table form.

I’m now convinced that’s how it stays. It’s the manager’s philosophy and any issues with it working in the PL just cause him to double down further.

I know, we weren't exactly good at the end of last season, I'm just trying to cling to some hope that the system will finally click some day and we'll look dazzling more than we look like worn out clowns. My brain is in a crime movie - "Oh, this is the problem, the injuries, thats it!" - the next day -"no, its got to be the system", third day - "no backing, thats it!" - then -"i got it now! He's too stubborn", wait is it "the system takes time"? And so it goes. I'm no fudging detective, I half believed the owl defense in The Staircase ffs.

I just think, after two years at the helm come summer, it's not unreasonable to expect seeing some sort of cohesion from the team.

Look at that Liverpool team today. Okay, better players than us all over the pitch - but boy were they organized! It was like watching an orchestra how they pressed together, defended together and attacked together.

Bottom line is, I don't have a clue. Just here for the ride. I think we will need a few signings in January, and then we'll see how it goes.

 

[Kompakted]

I know, we weren't exactly good at the end of last season, I'm just trying to cling to some hope that the system will finally click some day and we'll look dazzling more than we look like worn out clowns. My brain is in a crime movie - "Oh, this is the problem, the injuries, thats it!" - the next day -"no, its got to be the system", third day - "no backing, thats it!" - then -"i got it now! He's too stubborn", wait is it "the system takes time"? And so it goes. I'm no fudging detective, I half believed the owl defense in The Staircase ffs.

I just think, after two years at the helm come summer, it's not unreasonable to expect seeing some sort of cohesion from the team.

Look at that victims team today. Okay, better players than us all over the pitch - but boy were they organized! It was like watching an orchestra how they pressed together, defended together and attacked together.

Bottom line is, I don't have a clue. Just here for the ride. I think we will need a few signings in January, and then we'll see how it goes.

Liverpool have better players as you say and they're well organised.

And that's it for me. The players are trying to implement the tactics, they're working hard, but we look so chaotic when it's bad, it's really bad. Even when we win we are liable for a good few amateur-hour moments just look at the United game.

And it comes from players on the stretch all the time: it's school boy stuff I'm sorry: "we've won the ball, whey-hey bomb forward everyone!" "Oh brick we've lost the ball, quick everyone, run back!" "F**king hell I'm knackered now!"

 

[Bedfordspurs]

victims have better players as you say and they're well organised.

And that's it for me. The players are trying to implement the tactics, they're working hard, but we look so chaotic when it's bad, it's really bad. Even when we win we are liable for a good few amateur-hour moments just look at the United game.

And it comes from players on the stretch all the time: it's school boy stuff I'm sorry: "we've won the ball, whey-hey bomb forward everyone!" "Oh brick we've lost the ball, quick everyone, run back!" "F**king hell I'm knackered now!"

But if the players are ok the stretch as you. All it and you rotate them it may work
We don’t know because we haven’t addressed the depth yet that allows the rotation
Pool made 7 changes mid week to today
When we played Chelsea it was the same
It has a huge knock on when you can and can’t do that to your system and arguably more so when it’s a genuine high energy system

 

[glasgowspur]

victims have better players as you say and they're well organised.

And that's it for me. The players are trying to implement the tactics, they're working hard, but we look so chaotic when it's bad, it's really bad. Even when we win we are liable for a good few amateur-hour moments just look at the United game.

And it comes from players on the stretch all the time: it's school boy stuff I'm sorry: "we've won the ball, whey-hey bomb forward everyone!" "Oh brick we've lost the ball, quick everyone, run back!" "F**king hell I'm knackered now!"

Isn't that exactly what pool did today?
At three of their goals came them turning the ball over deep in their own half and charging forward.

 

[Kompakted]

Isn't that exactly what pool did today?
At three of their goals came them turning the ball over deep in their own half and charging forward.

Do both their full backs go bombing forward into midfield with no midfielder dropping in leaving their centre backs on their own with a consistent casm of space to play into? We give up chances against so many teams. This result has been coming. Rangers should have had 4 or 5 against us, Liverpool are better finishers. When someone comes to play us that is down and out or having a bad day, yeah, we will rip them a new one. Anyone with half a brain cell and the ability to play a reasonably accurate ball over the top can get at us easily.

 

[Raziel]

If he eventually gets sacked, tactically, this is where it will have happened.

A lot of his approach, tactically, makes intuitive sense to me. Press high up, compress the space, get comfortable playing in that tight space, don't let opponents breathe. You can see the underlying sense there - if you have world-class players to pull it off, it will be a great system.

The two areas that make zero sense to me though, are a) underlapping fullbacks, and b) touchline-hugging wingers. Because our squad cannot handle this, but he dogmatically insists on playing this way, to our clear and constant detriment.

Udogie and Porro made their names as touchline-hugging wing backs. To play as adjunct central midfielders both misuses their talents and leaves us with yawning gaps on the flanks where they should be, allowing easy attacks against us down the flanks.

And in terms of wingers, Son does his best work cutting inside, not taking players on down the outside - he doesn't have the pace nor the skills for that. You are literally putting square pegs in round holes having him on the touchline, and Udogie cutting inside. They both suffer for it.

If his guess is that he can slowly bed players into this system over the years, it still makes little sense, because players like Mikey Moore, our future, are at their best cutting in off the left.

Baffling.

So I'm not concerned about the underlapping and wingers, there are reasons/results where it works (Johnson has 10 goals basically coming in at back post on this system). 5 players will be well into double figures in the front line (not sure we have ever done that in PL?), again the attacking component works, against anyone, 3+ goals scored against City, United, Villa, West Ham, Liverpool.

The issue for me is in two things

- Failure to help your players, we know Pool rotated 8 players midweek, we know we have 8 or 9 players out, we know our backline is short. Let the team be a little more compact for some of the game, provide a little more cover. Pool is both patient and clinical (both things are particularly effective against us)
- In game management, thought we saw just a little of it against Southampton, give the team the ability to manage moments in the game for 10-15 minute spells where we stay in shape, we mid block, we don't leave ourselves open, give us a way to play out of those spells when the opposition has a little momentum.

What's happening here is on him, and when you are on the wrong end of a 1 goal difference/result, that's debatable, conceding 6 at home? you are never going to outscore your way out of that ..

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Do both their full backs go bombing forward into midfield with no midfielder dropping in leaving their centre backs on their own with a consistent casm of space to play into? We give up chances against so many teams. This result has been coming. Rangers should have had 4 or 5 against us, victims are better finishers. When someone comes to play us that is down and out or having a bad day, yeah, we will rip them a new one. Anyone with half a brain cell and the ability to play a reasonably accurate ball over the top can get at us easily.

Yes they do at times
It was on the TV today
But they don’t always
We don’t always either but that isn’t hat fans want to hit Ange with

The key is … their wide players keep the ball better than ours (son today was woeful, compare his ball retention and play with Salah)
They play with no CF so have floating players and their CB less the defence

 

[Raziel]

Yes they do at times
It was on the TV today
But they don’t always
We don’t always either but that isn’t hat fans want to hit Ange with

The key is … their wide players keep the ball better than ours (son today was woeful, compare his ball retention and play with Salah)
They play with no CF so have floating players and their CB less the defence

That's not the difference

- Liverpool has a lot of attacking options and a decent midfield and defense, the attacking options get rotated a lot hence they can be very high energy.
- But .. the difference Slot has made is they genuinely try to control the game now, they don't want to leave themselves as open as they did under Klopp or we and City do, much more patient and some of their games as a result are not great to watch.
- We don't adjust the system to protect a player, we just expose them ..

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So I'm not concerned about the underlapping and wingers, there are reasons/results where it works (Johnson has 10 goals basically coming in at back post on this system). 5 players will be well into double figures in the front line (not sure we have ever done that in PL?), again the attacking component works, against anyone, 3+ goals scored against City, United, Villa, West Ham, victims.

The issue for me is in two things

- Failure to help your players, we know Pool rotated 8 players midweek, we know we have 8 or 9 players out, we know our backline is short. Let the team be a little more compact for some of the game, provide a little more cover. Pool is both patient and clinical (both things are particularly effective against us)
- In game management, thought we saw just a little of it against Southampton, give the team the ability to manage moments in the game for 10-15 minute spells where we stay in shape, we mid block, we don't leave ourselves open, give us a way to play out of those spells when the opposition has a little momentum.

What's happening here is on him, and when you are on the wrong end of a 1 goal difference/result, that's debatable, conceding 6 at home? you are never going to outscore your way out of that ..

Ange has only brought two wingers so far
He has stuck with son and he has too (I’m convinced it’s contractual) and he has changed Kulus role
What is interesting is he has brought a dribbly one and a wide attacker (not sure what else to call Brennan)
We need to give room for Moore to grow
We need to shift Richy, Gil and Solomon (not sure who sign him) to make room for the 2 more we need
We also have our new Korean joining which I assume is an Ange signing but we have no real idea if we’re honest. He will need time like Moore

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That's not the difference

- victims has a lot of attacking options and a decent midfield and defense, the attacking options get rotated a lot hence they can be very high energy.
- But .. the difference Slot has made is they genuinely try to control the game now, they don't want to leave themselves as open as they did under Klopp or we and City do, much more patient and some of their games as a result are not great to watch.
- We don't adjust the system to protect a player, we just expose them ..

It’s a huge difference
I didn’t see gakpo, Salah or Diaz panic with the ball and bottle it like son did today. Not once
It means it stays in attack and you can build form a point of pressure
And he has made them more patient but then are open. It’s why we scored 3 goals against them and we are brick (apparently )

 

[Raziel]

Ange has only brought two wingers so far
He has stuck with son and he has too (I’m convinced it’s contractual) and he has changed Kulus role
What is interesting is he has brought a dribbly one and a wide attacker (not sure what else to call Brennan)
We need to give room for Moore to grow
We need to shift Richy, Gil and Solomon (not sure who sign him) to make room for the 2 more we need
We also have our new Korean joining which I assume is an Ange signing but we have no real idea if we’re honest. He will need time like Moore

They are all pretty much his signings

- People who doubt that should look at the recent interview where he is asked about Solanke type vs. young players, and he was super clear, he could have got a senior player but he (not the club) couldn't pass up on a player like Gray, and that in future we will probably go a little more experienced.

I actually think, if you took Ange's system, dialed it back 10-15% for spells in game, and had the current squad fit, you would do well

The issue remains, his system gives chances to the opposition, can you really get a consistently good run of results in that model?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They are all pretty much his signings

- People who doubt that should look at the recent interview where he is asked about Solanke type vs. young players, and he was super clear, he could have got a senior player but he (not the club) couldn't pass up on a player like Gray, and that in future we will probably go a little more experienced.

I actually think, if you took Ange's system, dialed it back 10-15% for spells in game, and had the current squad fit, you would do well

The issue remains, his system gives chances to the opposition, can you really get a consistently good run of results in that model?

Every system gives teams chances
Even Arsenals intact defensive one
Teams have ways of attacking even the best sides
I don’t think you can ever stop that
But Ange would need depth to alley changes to dial it back
Said it mid week. When biss went often boil in the game if you brought ok bentacur it’s a very nice trade
Sonny not effective, great being on Odebert and see if he can drive them back

 

[Kompakted]

Yes they do at times
It was on the TV today
But they don’t always
We don’t always either but that isn’t hat fans want to hit Ange with

The key is … their wide players keep the ball better than ours (son today was woeful, compare his ball retention and play with Salah)
They play with no CF so have floating players and their CB less the defence

I'm sorry, but Liverpool do not expose themselves like we do. Liverpool do not constantly give up chances like we do. They don't play Russian roulette like we do. They are well drilled and well organised. Their players know their jobs and have no problem executing them. We look very disorganised at times, we have a lot of players that are clearly playing for the manager trying to put the yards in but who do seem unsure of what they are supposed to do in certain situations and that leads to the consistent amateur hour moments we see. Players seem to be constantly second guessing what they should be doing. Just look at the United game:
"Oh f**k I've got the ball in defence and I'm quite isolated and they're pressing me....not sure i should be here ....what should I do....I'll give it back to Frazer"
"What's he doing giving it back to me, the gaffer wants it forward, shall I boot it or try and play it out, umm the gaffer wants it played out .....OH F***"

Doesn't happen with the consistency it does to us, these catastrophic individual brain f**ts if everyone is comfortable with what they're supposed to be doing. You can blame Forster, Bissouma, Sarr, Romero, Dragusin, Porro and everyone else that's had a horror show moment this season. We are a season and a half in though and it's unacceptable for me.....

 

[Raziel]

It’s a huge difference
I didn’t see gakpo, Salah or Diaz panic with the ball and bottle it like son did today. Not once
It means it stays in attack and you can build form a point of pressure
And he has made them more patient but then are open. It’s why we scored 3 goals against them and we are brick (apparently )

Our attack is not brick mate, Son, Deki, Solanke, Johnson, Maddison are all pretty close to or past double figures at the half way point in season, we are consistently scoring as much as the top 3. And VVD was fudging done twice by our play today, hilarious.

Son, Solanke, Deki have played too much, and I'd argue Salah & Jota are elite players, Gapko (I've seen lots of awful play from him, Nunez and Diaz), Diaz and Nunez are decent, not great players (1 in 4 attacking players)

IT comes back to is the manager willing to use that attacking prowess for spells and limit how often you are open, especially against quality opposition

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'm sorry, but Liverpool do not expose themselves like we do. Liverpool do not constantly give up chances like we do. They don't play Russian roulette like we do. They are well drilled and well organised. Their players know their jobs and have no problem executing them. We look very disorganised at times, we have a lot of players that are clearly playing for the manager trying to put the yards in but who do seem unsure of what they are supposed to do in certain situations and that leads to the consistent amateur hour moments we see. Players seem to be constantly second guessing what they should be doing. Just look at the United game:
"Oh f**k I've got the ball in defence and I'm quite isolated and they're pressing me....not sure i should be here ....what should I do....I'll give it back to Frazer"
"What's he doing giving it back to me, the gaffer wants it forward, shall I boot it or try and play it out, umm the gaffer wants it played out .....OH F***"

Doesn't happen with the consistency it does to us, these catastrophic individual brain f**ts if everyone is comfortable with what they're supposed to be doing. You can blame Forster, Bissouma, Sarr, Romero, Dragusin, Porro and everyone else that's had a horror show moment this season. We are a season and a half in though and it's unacceptable for me.....

How did then concede 3 goals to us?