Ange in or out?

[Raziel]

I do think we missed an opportunity on Slot, although I believe he turned us down but looks like a very clever and tactical coach coming from a few articles I read last year when we were rumoured to be talking to him. He has only brought in Chiesa, who they havent even used yet, so hasnt even put his own stamp on his squad yet and he has his team top of the league. This Sunday I do think you will see the better tactician come through and Liverpool may outplay, and nullify our tactics and get the result to help push them on.

He turned us down, time will tell

- He's inherited a very good squad from Klopp, added a little more pragmatism and game control. He's also benefitted massively from pretty much every other top 6 side struggling at same time.
- The question is long term can he maintain the attacking output with that pragmatic/more defensive (than Klopp) approach, and how they replace Salah

So far, smart from them .. although I still laugh at how the media reported our interest in him (big risk, Dutch league, etc.) vs. when Liverpool looked at him, it was suddenly a perfect fit and smart judgement

 

[DubSpur]

He turned us down, time will tell

- He's inherited a very good squad from Klopp, added a little more pragmatism and game control. He's also benefitted massively from pretty much every other top 6 side struggling at same time.
- The question is long term can he maintain the attacking output with that pragmatic/more defensive (than Klopp) approach, and how they replace Salah

So far, smart from them .. although I still laugh at how the media reported our interest in him (big risk, Dutch league, etc.) vs. when Liverpool looked at him, it was suddenly a perfect fit and smart judgement

The media can't be negative about anything the bin dippers do or their cult will be up in arms.

 

[Baleforce]

He turned us down, time will tell

- He's inherited a very good squad from Klopp, added a little more pragmatism and game control. He's also benefitted massively from pretty much every other top 6 side struggling at same time.
- The question is long term can he maintain the attacking output with that pragmatic/more defensive (than Klopp) approach, and how they replace Salah

So far, smart from them .. although I still laugh at how the media reported our interest in him (big risk, Dutch league, etc.) vs. when Liverpool looked at him, it was suddenly a perfect fit and smart judgement

I obviously hate the clam, and it goes without saying he's a man of no morals whatsoever.

But he has proven that you can do the job without gurning in the media all fudging day every fudging day, like his tinkle stained tramp of a predecessor.

 

[Robspur12]

I obviously hate the clam, and it goes without saying he's a man of no morals whatsoever.

But he has proven that you can do the job without gurning in the media all fudging day every fudging day, like his tinkle stained tramp of a predecessor.

He hasn’t proved anything yet.

 

[Baleforce]

He hasn’t proved anything yet.

He’s proved it’s possible to hold that job without being an angry prick every fudging day.

Which no manager of that scum club has managed since Woy, or before Woy for that matter.

 

[Bullet]

how they replace Salah

Pool are playing a dangerous game by not discussing his new contract; in commentary the other day they said that Salah had been involved (scored or assisted) 11 of their last 12 goals. So many times Salah will be the key difference maker.

 

[DubSpur]

Pool are playing a dangerous game by not discussing his new contract; in commentary the other day they said that Salah had been involved (scored or assisted) 11 of their last 12 goals. So many times Salah will be the key difference maker.

He's supposed to have agreed a new contract. Brilliant this season, but he can't go on forever though.

 

[Mikey10]

He's supposed to have agreed a new contract. Brilliant this season, but he can't go on forever though.

He doesn’t need to; they’ll go and spend a lot of money to replace him. And they won’t wait until a year after he’s left to do it.

 

[Baleforce]

He's supposed to have agreed a new contract. Brilliant this season, but he can't go on forever though.

He’s gotta be close to being done.

Always better to get rid too early and not too late.

 

[Mrs Vert]

I’m not convinced on Ange, but am still hoping he turns it around. If he doesn’t, I’m definitely against ditching him for someone who is a similar risk as he was.

Give it a couple of weeks, though, and Pep will be on the market…

He won't succeed here. He misses 2 players and has a meltdown

 

[Surfless]

I just don’t buy the Klopp/Arteta comparisons any more.

Klopp had a ropey first 25 games at Liverpool. After that, although there were occasional bumps in the road, the clear direction of travel was upward. The inverse of Ange and his first 10 games.

Arteta won a trophy pretty quickly, so it was clear he - and his style of football - could be successful. There were rapid improvements between his 50th game and his 100th. We look like we are going backwards - fast.

As for Chelsea, there can be no comparison. Their model is too different; they’ve spent over £1 billion on their squad, we’ve cut our wage bill by £30 million.

I would argue that the Klopp/Arteta references are only "not to be bought" because we were in so much more of a mess than either of them. Neither was trying to sell their talisman when the respective manager took over, both were recent trophy winners and both were perennial champions league qualifiers. Neither had to unpick two managers worth of defensive football designed to bore the opposition into losing.

So the comparison starts with Ange in deficit to the other two immediately.

Then consider that from their first 50 games it looked like this:

Arteta - 21 wins
Klopp - 26 wins
Ange - 25 wins

Again - given the paucity of our squad at the time its impressive reading.

There weren't really any rapid improvements in results for Arteta by the way - his win ratio after 100 games was 53%. Klopp's was 50.7% . Ange is 50.8% to date.

So having started further back, Ange is statistically better or on a par with the two managers you don't think we should compare him to.

For the record when left to get on with it and instill their system and philosophy, Arteta has climbed to 59% win percentage and Klopp finished on 61%. So we should give our guy the time he needs and show some patience.

Still think there's no comparison?

 

[braineclipse]

I would argue that the Klopp/Arteta references are only "not to be bought" because we were in so much more of a mess than either of them. Neither was trying to sell their talisman when the respective manager took over, both were recent trophy winners and both were perennial champions league qualifiers. Neither had to unpick two managers worth of defensive football designed to bore the opposition into losing.

So the comparison starts with Ange in deficit to the other two immediately.

Then consider that from their first 50 games it looked like this:

Arteta - 21 wins
Klopp - 26 wins
Ange - 25 wins

Again - given the paucity of our squad at the time its impressive reading.

There weren't really any rapid improvements in results for Arteta by the way - his win ratio after 100 games was 53%. Klopp's was 50.7% . Ange is 50.8% to date.

So having started further back, Ange is statistically better or on a par with the two managers you don't think we should compare him to.

For the record when left to get on with it and instill their system and philosophy, Arteta has climbed to 59% win percentage and Klopp finished on 61%. So we should give our guy the time he needs and show some patience.

Still think there's no comparison?

Agreed. And I think the main point with those comparisons are that managers that go on to be successful sometimes need time to get there, particularly when working on building a good squad over time.

We don't know if Ange can do similar things, but to me he's definitely deserved the chance to show if he can. And particularly given some of the circumstances of this season (injuries, season back in Europe and summer window focused on younger players).

 

[tommysvr]

People take the Arteta, Klopp and other comparisons as if they’re some sort of guarantee of success…because that’s easiest argument to push back on. They’re not that at all. They’re examples of managers who didn’t work straight away but with time and a vision and method to their work eventually brought relative success.

Ange isn’t guaranteed to succeed because Arteta and Klopp (kind of) have. But he is guaranteed to fail if we don’t allow him the time to build.

 

[Gazza]

People take the Arteta, Klopp and other comparisons as if they’re some sort of guarantee of success…because that’s easiest argument to push back on. They’re not that at all. They’re examples of managers who didn’t work straight away but with time and a vision and method to their work eventually brought relative success.

Ange isn’t guaranteed to succeed because Arteta and Klopp (kind of) have. But he is guaranteed to fail if we don’t allow him the time to build.

I agree, those clubs have backed their manager in their rebuild in this respect we are a macaronic club that thinks by simply changing the manager and sticking to the same transfer strategy with a variance in funds will result in success. But I suppose our success is to be somewhat competitive but not push the boat out enough to win anything.

However Ange at the moment is failing and is under pressure there is no hiding from that. Not entirely all on him but he must share some of the responsibility due to his poor game management and strange selection of players in positions.

 

[Muttley]

I would argue that the Klopp/Arteta references are only "not to be bought" because we were in so much more of a mess than either of them. Neither was trying to sell their talisman when the respective manager took over, both were recent trophy winners and both were perennial champions league qualifiers. Neither had to unpick two managers worth of defensive football designed to bore the opposition into losing.

So the comparison starts with Ange in deficit to the other two immediately.

Then consider that from their first 50 games it looked like this:

Arteta - 21 wins
Klopp - 26 wins
Ange - 25 wins

Again - given the paucity of our squad at the time its impressive reading.

There weren't really any rapid improvements in results for Arteta by the way - his win ratio after 100 games was 53%. Klopp's was 50.7% . Ange is 50.8% to date.

So having started further back, Ange is statistically better or on a par with the two managers you don't think we should compare him to.

For the record when left to get on with it and instill their system and philosophy, Arteta has climbed to 59% win percentage and Klopp finished on 61%. So we should give our guy the time he needs and show some patience.

Still think there's no comparison?

I think we might be forgetting the major overhaul that happened when Arteta first took over. I'm not sure whether he drove it ir the club but there were squad casualties and player acquisitions everywhere. Arteta joined in Dec 2019 and it wasn't until the 2021-23 seasons that they shifted Ozil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Kolasinac, Mhikitayran, Torreira, Guendouzi, Bellerin, Luiz, Aubamayang, Lacazette etc. Some these guys were on massive wages and Arsenal had to subsidise wages with loan transfers. I think Xhaka was about the only old boy that survived that massive churn that saw the arrival of some of the players we see today.

Arteta didn't get it easy at all and you can see why his team didn't perform at the same rate they did in their 2nd and 3rd fifty games.

In our case, the equivalents squad transformation started with Spurs in the 2 years leading up to Ange's appointment and his very first season. Ange has had it easier as we've already established the clean slate and optimal financial model.

It should be fun from this point as it's only minor surgery required plus a load of squad nurturing.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think we might be forgetting the major overhaul that happened when Arteta first took over. I'm not sure whether he drove it ir the club but there were squad casualties and player acquisitions everywhere. Arteta joined in Dec 2019 and it wasn't until the 2021-23 seasons that they shifted Ozil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Kolasinac, Mhikitayran, Torreira, Guendouzi, Bellerin, Luiz, Aubamayang, Lacazette etc. Some these guys were on massive wages and Arsenal had to subsidise wages with loan transfers. I think Xhaka was about the only old boy that survived that massive churn that saw the arrival of some of the players we see today.

Arteta didn't get it easy at all and you can see why his team didn't perform at the same rate they did in their 2nd and 3rd fifty games.

In our case, the equivalents squad transformation started with Spurs in the 2 years leading up to Ange's appointment and his very first season. Ange has had it easier as we've already established the clean slate and optimal financial model.

It should be fun from this point as it's only minor surgery required plus a load of squad nurturing.

Arteta also gave some of those players extended contracts don’t forget

 

[Surfless]

I think we might be forgetting the major overhaul that happened when Arteta first took over. I'm not sure whether he drove it ir the club but there were squad casualties and player acquisitions everywhere. Arteta joined in Dec 2019 and it wasn't until the 2021-23 seasons that they shifted Ozil, Mustafi, Sokratis, Kolasinac, Mhikitayran, Torreira, Guendouzi, Bellerin, Luiz, Aubamayang, Lacazette etc. Some these guys were on massive wages and Arsenal had to subsidise wages with loan transfers. I think Xhaka was about the only old boy that survived that massive churn that saw the arrival of some of the players we see today.

Arteta didn't get it easy at all and you can see why his team didn't perform at the same rate they did in their 2nd and 3rd fifty games.

In our case, the equivalents squad transformation started with Spurs in the 2 years leading up to Ange's appointment and his very first season. Ange has had it easier as we've already established the clean slate and optimal financial model.

It should be fun from this point as it's only minor surgery required plus a load of squad nurturing.

I think you've got this wrong.

Ange had to clear the decks completely when he came in - it was nothing like the clean slate you referred to.

Here's the squad he took over that went on preseason in 2023:

Brandon Austin
Yves Bissouma
Ben Davies
Alfie Devine
Eric Dier - GONE
Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg - GONE
Harry Kane - GONE
Josh Keeley
Dejan Kulusevski
Giovani Lo Celso - GONE
James Maddison
Tanguy Ndombele - GONE
Ivan Perisic - GONE
Pedro Porro
Sergio Reguilon
Richarlison
Joe Rodon - GONE
Cristian Romero
Emerson Royal - GONE
Davinson Sanchez - GONE
Pape Matar Sarr
Dane Scarlett
Oliver Skipp - GONE
Manor Solomon - GOING
Heung-Min Son
Djed Spence
Japhet Tanganga - GONE
Destiny Udogie
Guglielmo Vicario
Harvey White
Alfie Whiteman

12 of 31 gone now. 38 % of the squad cleared out.

He has not had it easier and he definitely didn't have it better than Arteta.

Also its not minor surgery. To compete we need:

1 Goalkeeper
1 left back
2 centre halves
1 wide forward (L)
a centre forward

That's a second spine of a team. We're not at the tweaking stage, we're still growing this squad.

 

[Muttley]

I think you've got this wrong.

Ange had to clear the decks completely when he came in - it was nothing like the clean slate you referred to.

Here's the squad he took over that went on preseason in 2023:

Brandon Austin
Yves Bissouma
Ben Davies
Alfie Devine
Eric Dier - GONE
Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg - GONE
Harry Kane - GONE
Josh Keeley
Dejan Kulusevski
Giovani Lo Celso - GONE
James Maddison
Tanguy Ndombele - GONE
Ivan Perisic - GONE
Pedro Porro
Sergio Reguilon
Richarlison
Joe Rodon - GONE
Cristian Romero
Emerson Royal - GONE
Davinson Sanchez - GONE
Pape Matar Sarr
Dane Scarlett
Oliver Skipp - GONE
Manor Solomon - GOING
Heung-Min Son
Djed Spence
Japhet Tanganga - GONE
Destiny Udogie
Guglielmo Vicario
Harvey White
Alfie Whiteman

12 of 31 gone now. 38 % of the squad cleared out.

He has not had it easier and he definitely didn't have it better than Arteta.

Also its not minor surgery. To compete we need:

1 Goalkeeper
1 left back
2 centre halves
1 wide forward (L)
a centre forward

That's a second spine of a team. We're not at the tweaking stage, we're still growing this squad.

38% is the club level metric. It's not Ange's as the club made sure he never needed to worry about so many of those legacy players. They were already putting plans in place before he joined. The club found key player loans to get them out of his way, and then found them their final exits. In my opinion, this only minimally impacted what Ange did week to week. Way different from Arteta who had to use a lot of the unwanted players and even won an FA Cup with them. The club then had to churn. Also remember they were trying to do this in COVID years, not in this current market.

I do genuinely believe we're streamlined for the next stage. If we have a squad of 25 and only need 6 more, then it is a position I've never seen us in. I'm not even convinced we do need 6 either as our academy contribution could easy subsidise that gap.

I always think back to Poch's days. Loads of transfers but the the ones that made a difference in years 2,3 and 4 were guys like Son, Toby and Big Vic. The rest were unnecessary fluff who came and went. Our 86 points in the PL wasn't achieved through major overhauls anymore.

If we can pick up one 1st team player in Jan, and a couple in the summer then I think we'll be cooking on gas as more U21's get involved. It wkll be our deepest squad ever in the PL years.

 

[Mikey10]

I would argue that the Klopp/Arteta references are only "not to be bought" because we were in so much more of a mess than either of them. Neither was trying to sell their talisman when the respective manager took over, both were recent trophy winners and both were perennial champions league qualifiers. Neither had to unpick two managers worth of defensive football designed to bore the opposition into losing.

So the comparison starts with Ange in deficit to the other two immediately.

Then consider that from their first 50 games it looked like this:

Arteta - 21 wins
Klopp - 26 wins
Ange - 25 wins

Again - given the paucity of our squad at the time its impressive reading.

There weren't really any rapid improvements in results for Arteta by the way - his win ratio after 100 games was 53%. Klopp's was 50.7% . Ange is 50.8% to date.

So having started further back, Ange is statistically better or on a par with the two managers you don't think we should compare him to.

For the record when left to get on with it and instill their system and philosophy, Arteta has climbed to 59% win percentage and Klopp finished on 61%. So we should give our guy the time he needs and show some patience.

Still think there's no comparison?

Yeah, I do really.

The win-rate is somewhat misleading as we tend not to draw games. With both Klopp and Arteta there was a clearer upward trajectory after 18 months; we’re still hugely inconsistent, mentally fragile and decidedly dodgy defensively. We’re also unlikely to go out and buy the key big-money signings that can truly make the difference, in the way that Liverpool and Arsenal did.

We’re 10th and we’ll see how we go over the next month. I’d say by the end of January we’ll know whether Ange will be here longer term. It’s a huge month for him, and for us. Hopefully he can bring a much greater consistency to our performances.

 

[Surfless]

Yeah, I do really.

The win-rate is somewhat misleading as we tend not to draw games. With both Klopp and Arteta there was a clearer upward trajectory after 18 months; we’re still hugely inconsistent, mentally fragile and decidedly dodgy defensively. We’re also unlikely to go out and buy the key big-money signings that can truly make the difference, in the way that Liverpool and Arsenal did.

We’re 10th and we’ll see how we go over the next month. I’d say by the end of January we’ll know whether Ange will be here longer term. It’s a huge month for him, and for us. Hopefully he can bring a much greater consistency to our performances.

good defence of your position. For the record I was talking about the coaching impact, not the club's ability to go and sign players - we're clearly at a disadvantage there where Liverpool and the Arse are concerned.