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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 79 41.8%

  • Out

    Votes: 110 58.2%
  • Total voters
    189
Raziel said:
Like I said mate, I get, but in addition to the tired, no prepared, whatever caveat, it was same old mistakes.

Somebody published the numbers at end of season when VDV/Romero play vs not, basically take one of the two out and our results get worse by about a third, take both out and it's about a half. Guess what, we aren't going to have both of them always available, just like we won't always have Deki or whoever, the system operates too much on the edge.
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I’ve also seen the numbers when the A team defence are available - 63% win rate IIRC and 22% draws
It’s like chalk and cheese but there are other variables too
We don’t just have one of them out and that’s it
Even for the final we had 3 first choice players out
the squad was never strung enough when we let so many go
And worse when the club clearly chose to focus on the cups. That was an obvious thing that fans didn’t like but it’s paid off massively
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I’ve also seen the numbers when the A team defence are available - 63% win rate IIRC and 22% draws
It’s like chalk and cheese but there are other variables too
We don’t just have one of them out and that’s it
Even for the final we had 3 first choice players out
the squad was never strung enough when we let so many go
And worse when the club clearly chose to focus on the cups. That was an obvious thing that fans didn’t like but it’s paid off massively
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Ange chose, he bet the house on it (he stated certain groups in club were not in agreement), and 100% credit to him, he won that bet.

The issue is, 12th place and EL win, he would be signing a fudging extension to his contract, but that's not what happened, 22 losses, 17th place shows some combination of inability to manage multiple fronts (will be worse next year with CL) and not the greatest judgement and/or alignment with expectations.
 
Raziel said:
Ange chose, he bet the house on it (he stated certain groups in club were not in agreement), and 100% credit to him, he won that bet.

The issue is, 12th place and EL win, he would be signing a fudging extension to his contract, but that's not what happened, 22 losses, 17th place shows some combination of inability to manage multiple fronts (will be worse next year with CL) and not the greatest judgement and/or alignment with expectations.
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Or it showed the limitations in the squad that need addressing to work on all fronts
And let’s be honest, no English side has managed it this season

Pool, the best team in the country haven’t won since their focus dropped after winning the title. They faltered in the cups despite making a final (they were awful in that final) and they also faltered in Europe despite being ahead and at home second leg because they played a better team

City made a final and were as blunt as it gets. Did nothing in Europe or the league and we knocked them out of the other cup

Chelsea may well win tomorrow and claim European glory. They have limped over the line in the league and still may get banned (mad the UEFA decision hasn’t been made or isn’t public yet)

Arsenal got excited after beating Madrid (remember when we did that) and suddenly thought they were gonna win the CL. Beaten by a better side and also lost the league by a long margin. No other cup and IMO way way too many excuses that don’t stand up (reliant on certain players … sound familiar)

United. Do I need to to say anything

So despite what fans want, it seems with the extra games in Europe and this league being the toughest no one seems to be able to genuinely compete.

So I’d at a team that focussed and got over the line in a trophy that delivered 2 goals in 1 is very successful. That would normally allow the manager more time. Will it work for next season… I don’t know, and as I’ve said there are squad issues to address for any manager
 
Raziel said:
Ange chose, he bet the house on it (he stated certain groups in club were not in agreement), and 100% credit to him, he won that bet.

The issue is, 12th place and EL win, he would be signing a fudging extension to his contract, but that's not what happened, 22 losses, 17th place shows some combination of inability to manage multiple fronts (will be worse next year with CL) and not the greatest judgement and/or alignment with expectations.
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Why is 12th good enough when we had the 5th best squad in the league?
 
Gutter Boy said:
Why is 12th good enough when we had the 5th best squad in the league?
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Because of mitigating factors… but IMHO those mitigating factors don’t stretch to 17th and 22 loses.

I still believe he has earned a conversation though, and in that conversation he needs to be detailed about how he will implement a new system because his system has been adapted to by other managers and needs a complete revamp.

If he, in said conversation talks about injuries, focus on the Europa league and even hints at keeping his system then we have to part ways.

If we can get either Klopp or inzahgi (spelling) then we have to also part ways,

But if it’s the likes of Franks et Al and Ange comes up with a plan to change his system and counter measures when his new system is adapted to then I’m willing to roll the dice with him again.
 
DTA said:
Because of mitigating factors… but IMHO those mitigating factors don’t stretch to 17th and 22 loses.

I still believe he has earned a conversation though, and in that conversation he needs to be detailed about how he will implement a new system because his system has been adapted to by other managers and needs a complete revamp.

If he, in said conversation talks about injuries, focus on the Europa league and even hints at keeping his system then we have to part ways.

If we can get either Klopp or inzahgi (spelling) then we have to also part ways,

But if it’s the likes of Franks et Al and Ange comes up with a plan to change his system and counter measures when his new system is adapted to then I’m willing to roll the dice with him again.
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There is more chance of me marrying Anna Friel than there is of Klopp ever coming to us.

And personally I wouldn’t want him anyhow as (a) We’d never be Liverpool and (b) He’s an arsehole.
 
tommysvr said:
I just can't take this seriously. He won a European trophy, on top of everything else he's won. How is he "not very good?"
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I know you can’t and I was being a bit tongue in cheek.

However as has been mentioned a lot of the time here, just because he won a European trophy, it is not the predominant barometer to gauge his competency long term as our manager given the league form over a sustained period of time.

I get it you rate him extremely highly,’others don’t and have a genuine belief that he’s not the man to take us forward.

That does not diminish his achievement in winning the Europa and the joy we feel for it, however you would like to frame it
 
Here is Dejan Kulusevski, speaking in The Player's Tribune, about Ange. When the points about 'buy-in', 'intangibles', and 'what has been learnt as a group by this trophy win' are raised, it is the sorts of things he says in the following quotes which offer an enormous amount of context as to why he really does (IMO) deserve the chance to see where we can go...FWIW I believe the interview was done a while before winning last Wednesday.

FROM THE PLAYER'S TRIBUNE

Dejan Kulusevski on the influence of Ange Postecoglou, and the identity that helped Tottenham Hotspur win the UEFA Europa League:

'Playing for this club is like being part of a family. Going into training, you love everybody. I’m going to become a father soon, and many of my teammates just got a kid, so we talk a lot about parenthood. I already know that the day I leave Spurs, the part I’ll miss the most is the dressing room. ⁠
⁠
I think a lot of our family atmosphere is down to Ange. ⁠
⁠
Ange is brave, and he makes you brave. He doesn’t say a lot, but when he speaks, we can listen for hours. You can tell that he’s been through a lot, and he often talks about what he learned from his father. He is different from any other coach I’ve had. Everybody talks about tactics and winning, and that’s good, but with Ange it means a little bit more, because it’s about you as a person. It’s about you as a man and what you believe in. ⁠
Ange says, “I don’t care if we lose, because everyone loses in life. If we lose, we’re going to lose on our terms. Never go away from being you.”⁠
⁠
And that’s how I want to live my life. O.K., we’re gonna face the best, but we’re gonna do it our way. We’re gonna play like we did all our lives. ⁠
⁠
Let me be clear: We want to win. We are fighting so hard to give you the trophies you deserve. We train for you, we eat for you, we sleep for you. We know that this club changes lives. It’s a huge deal to me when I see people wearing my shirt, because that means we connect on some level. And I still find it incredible that I can simply score a goal and send 60,000 people home happy.⁠
⁠
But we are also a young team with many new players. We’re not gonna win every game. And actually, Ange never speaks about trophies. He says, “Yes, we’ll get there, but first of all we have to become us. We have to find ourselves.”'
 
thfcsteff said:
Here is Dejan Kulusevski, speaking in The Player's Tribune, about Ange. When the points about 'buy-in', 'intangibles', and 'what has been learnt as a group by this trophy win' are raised, it is the sorts of things he says in the following quotes which offer an enormous amount of context as to why he really does (IMO) deserve the chance to see where we can go...FWIW I believe the interview was done a while before winning last Wednesday.

FROM THE PLAYER'S TRIBUNE

Dejan Kulusevski on the influence of Ange Postecoglou, and the identity that helped Tottenham Hotspur win the UEFA Europa League:

'Playing for this club is like being part of a family. Going into training, you love everybody. I’m going to become a father soon, and many of my teammates just got a kid, so we talk a lot about parenthood. I already know that the day I leave Spurs, the part I’ll miss the most is the dressing room. ⁠
⁠
I think a lot of our family atmosphere is down to Ange. ⁠
⁠
Ange is brave, and he makes you brave. He doesn’t say a lot, but when he speaks, we can listen for hours. You can tell that he’s been through a lot, and he often talks about what he learned from his father. He is different from any other coach I’ve had. Everybody talks about tactics and winning, and that’s good, but with Ange it means a little bit more, because it’s about you as a person. It’s about you as a man and what you believe in. ⁠
Ange says, “I don’t care if we lose, because everyone loses in life. If we lose, we’re going to lose on our terms. Never go away from being you.”⁠
⁠
And that’s how I want to live my life. O.K., we’re gonna face the best, but we’re gonna do it our way. We’re gonna play like we did all our lives. ⁠
⁠
Let me be clear: We want to win. We are fighting so hard to give you the trophies you deserve. We train for you, we eat for you, we sleep for you. We know that this club changes lives. It’s a huge deal to me when I see people wearing my shirt, because that means we connect on some level. And I still find it incredible that I can simply score a goal and send 60,000 people home happy.⁠
⁠
But we are also a young team with many new players. We’re not gonna win every game. And actually, Ange never speaks about trophies. He says, “Yes, we’ll get there, but first of all we have to become us. We have to find ourselves.”'
Click to expand...
It’s the reason why many are conflicted over this, myself included.

The Europa League win was one of my greatest nights as a Spurs fan ( the only reason it wasn’t the greatest is because I watched it at home with a cup of coffee and then showered and went to work which was a bit surreal, the others have been in person)

I also felt some of the criticism of Ange became over the top and personal and that culminated in that reference to him as a clown which was not only insulting but also astonishing in its timing given it was right before the final.

I also respected his personal journey and its culmination, as a father of three boys, it bought a tear to my eyes when. I saw him hug his boys.

I also get that the players buy into him.

There’s no doubt in my mind he deserves a second chance.

But as I said earlier, I think it’s the wrong decision from the long term perspective of the club to give him that second chance.

I’m not going to go into my reservations around how we tackled the Europa and wether that’s sustainable long term, I’m sure some here will take offence to that without understanding that you can be critical without diminishing the achievement.

But my overall view of his managerial tenure has been that it has been poor and I just don’t see given everything we have seen, his comments post Europa as well, how we can entrust him with the league and CL given the evidence so far.

Having said that I will be comfortable with either decision because I see the rationale behind it and ultimately for me I just hope we move forward regardless of who the manager is.
 
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