Ange in or out?

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Would you have settled for that under pochettino?
His time was looked at as that team and redknapps should have won a trophy aswell as getting cl football.
Now we'd settle for mid table and a trophy? If we don't win the trophy what then?

No sorry. I want us to be the best team in the world. Bring in the qataris. Bring in ancelotti. Bring in world class players. Bring in true glory years.

Unless we get an owner who can provide the cash needed to compete within the rules that's an unrealistic desire. Elite players want to play in CL regularly and we can't guarantee that and are a couple of years being in that position.

 

[Lilbaz]

Would be progress next season along with a cup I said.
Would you not accept 10th and winning the CL, it's a cup competition after all.

The cl yes. 100%.

 

[Lilbaz]

Unless we get an owner who can provide the cash needed to compete within the rules that's an unrealistic desire. Elite players want to play in CL regularly and we can't guarantee that and are a couple of years being in that position.

I've said i want new owners aswell.

Under enic though we did play in the cl regularly.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I'd be surprised if he was employed to learn on the job, Mason could've done that for us.

I'd also argue that he has done the opposite of learn on the job going by his PPG since he joined.

1st Season
First 19 games - 1.95 PPG
Last 19 games - 1.57 PPG

This season
First 19 games - 1.26 PPG
Last 18 games - 0.77 PPG

All I see is decline, quarter on quarter.

Forgive me for being sceptical about our chances of finishing 5/6th next season, however I would love to be proved wrong.

Yeah this "finished 5th so we can finish 5th again" doesn't account for the fact he whacked over 20 points on the board in his first 10 games. That was a huge points total (over half of what we've managed in the entirety of this season). His tactics were new so nobody knew how to counter it. Trends in league football are generally worth paying attention to. There is no statistical or analytical probability of us arresting the continued decline in PPG. And if the trend is not arrested ....guess where we will be?

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I've said i want new owners aswell.

Under enic though we did play in the cl regularly.

This is like getting my grandkids Christmas lists.

 

[monkeybarry]

This is the league table since we got found against Chelsea in his first season. What makes you think/believe we can achieve what you deem to be acceptable next season?

By learning and adapting.
That's the huge caveat - he needs to improve, the coaching needs to improve, the players need to improve.
The first few months of next season will show if anything more is there. If it's not, he goes in October.

We instinct is that he can't improve and will be gone in October. But the togetherness in the whole project shows me it needs the opportunity to rectify it's mistakes this season.

 

[Robspur12]

TBF he got the opportunity to follow it up...........


..........He fcuked up the opportunity but haha

In fairness to him, Berba and Keane were sold and Frazier Campbell replaced them

 

[Grays_1890]

In fairness to him, Berba and Keane were sold and Frazier Campbell replaced them

That is fair, but didn't his record suck between the SF and Final and end of season? Hold that call, I will look haha

Edit: yeh we sucked at the end of the season before

 

[Robspur12]

2 years of very poor records??? Honestly mate…he’s finished 5th and won a European trophy! Your expectations are outrageous, and none of the managers I’ve mentioned have ever achieved either of those things.

I get the positives Tommy but you are willfully ignoring the very big and unprecedented negatives.

 

[Junior19]

I get the doubt and critique of Ange, and I have some myself.
Yet, looking at everything in perspective (as far as possible for a mere human, that is) I see more reasons to give it a go, rather than resetting and starting over again.

1. We've broken one "habit". We've won something! Perhaps time to break another one? By not changing the management every 2,4 season, and ducking it out?
2. People who knew about Ange said there would be lots of injuries in season 1 (and possibly 2), as he got the players accustomed to the training and style, and replaced those who could not. Look at the age of our squad now, our entire first team squad has an average age of 24,25 years, and that includes a 37 year old Fraser Forster! Remove Forster and Werner, and you drop a year off that average age. And we're not talking just any inexperienced youngsters coming up from the academy, it is Bergvall, Gray, Moore, et all.
Just look at this list:

Name	POS	Age
Ben Davies33	D	32
Son Heung-Min7	F	32
Guglielmo Vicario1	G	28
Yves Bissouma8	M	28
James Maddison10	M	28
Richarlison9	F	28
Cristian Romero17	D	27
Rodrigo Bentancur30	M	27
Dominic Solanke19	F	27
Brandon Austin40	G	26
Alfie Whiteman41	G	26
Kevin Danso4	D	26
Pedro Porro23	D	25
Dejan Kulusevski21	M	25
Djed Spence24	D	24
Micky van de Ven37	D	24
Brennan Johnson22	F	24
Radu Dragusin6	D	23
Antonin Kinsky31	G	22
Destiny Udogie13	D	22
Pape Matar Sarr29	M	22
Dane Scarlett44	F	21
Dante Cassanova59	D	20
Mathys Tel11	F	20
Wilson Odobert28	F	20
Archie Gray14	M	19
Lucas Bergvall15	M	19
Rio Kyerematen57	M	19
Damola Ajayi63	F	19
Callum Olusesi64	M	18
Malachi Hardy79	D	17
Mikey Moore47	F	17

We keep forgetting how young people like Udogie, Sarr, Dragusin and Micky are, because they either play with maturity above their age, or have been here for ever.
I'd say that looks like an excellent core for a team to kick on with. So if Levy and the board are fully invested in giving Ange what he wants and needs this summer, I'd be all for that.

 

[Lilbaz]

I get the doubt and critique of Ange, and I have some myself.
Yet, looking at everything in perspective (as far as possible for a mere human, that is) I see more reasons to give it a go, rather than resetting and starting over again.

1. We've broken one "habit". We've won something! Perhaps time to break another one? By not changing the management every 2,4 season, and ducking it out?
2. People who knew about Ange said there would be lots of injuries in season 1 (and possibly 2), as he got the players accustomed to the training and style, and replaced those who could not. Look at the age of our squad now, our entire first team squad has an average age of 24,25 years, and that includes a 37 year old Fraser Forster! Remove Forster and Werner, and you drop a year off that average age. And we're not talking just any inexperienced youngsters coming up from the academy, it is Bergvall, Gray, Moore, et all.
Just look at this list:

Name	POS	Age
Ben Davies33	D	32
Son Heung-Min7	F	32
Guglielmo Vicario1	G	28
Yves Bissouma8	M	28
James Maddison10	M	28
Richarlison9	F	28
Cristian Romero17	D	27
Rodrigo Bentancur30	M	27
Dominic Solanke19	F	27
Brandon Austin40	G	26
Alfie Whiteman41	G	26
Kevin Danso4	D	26
Pedro Porro23	D	25
Dejan Kulusevski21	M	25
Djed Spence24	D	24
Micky van de Ven37	D	24
Brennan Johnson22	F	24
Radu Dragusin6	D	23
Antonin Kinsky31	G	22
Destiny Udogie13	D	22
Pape Matar Sarr29	M	22
Dane Scarlett44	F	21
Dante Cassanova59	D	20
Mathys Tel11	F	20
Wilson Odobert28	F	20
Archie Gray14	M	19
Lucas Bergvall15	M	19
Rio Kyerematen57	M	19
Damola Ajayi63	F	19
Callum Olusesi64	M	18
Malachi Hardy79	D	17
Mikey Moore47	F	17

We keep forgetting how young people like Udogie, Sarr, Dragusin and Micky are, because they either play with maturity above their age, or have been here for ever.
I'd say that looks like an excellent core for a team to kick on with. So if Levy and the board are fully invested in giving Ange what he wants and needs this summer, I'd be all for that.

I get they are young. Why then are we losing more often the older they get?
Because we focussed on a the cup? Great. What cup do we focus on next season?

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

Back to in.

Players love him.

He's bloody won us a cup and he will be backed.

We just need better players and a better luck with injuries I guess....

 

[Yiddo]

One cup win doesn't convince me, that was a tinkle poor season and a tinkle poor United team that we beat in the final. As i have said previously it would be another season wasted if we give him another year as he will be sacked by Christmas and would mean we are back to square one again. Let him walk into the sunset with his head held high and reputation in tact and we move on to a more tactical minded coach.

 

[Muttley]

I'm actually a little bit shocked in what I'm reading, in some cases.

In Euro's we have spent the following

pre-Ange to start assembling this squad.
21/22 - 96m
22/23 - 180m

More relevant to Ange's period
23/24 - 272m
24/25 - 175m
That doesn't include the money spent on Danso, Kinsky and probably Tel - so another 75m
That doesn't include what will be spent this summer. That will be £100-200m.

When you spend close to a billion on a squad, it is not OK to say that a top 10 finish and league cup is adequate. It really isn't.

If I retained Ange and gave him another huge budget, he would need to know that minimum 5th is his league target. He would also be expected to make it into the knockouts for the CL. As for the domestic cups, we would need to perhaps compromise a little on these 2 if we go deep into those competitions. Obviously, if we draw top teams like Liverpool in early rounds and get knocked out, that solidifies the league and CL targets.

It is time to walk the talk with Ange. Let's face it, he's happy talking.

I think November is the next big assessment of this manager.

 

[Surfless]

One cup win doesn't convince me, that was a tinkle poor season and a tinkle poor United team that we beat in the final. As i have said previously it would be another season wasted if we give him another year as he will be sacked by Christmas and would mean we are back to square one again. Let him walk into the sunset with his head held high and reputation in tact and we move on to a more tactical minded coach.

Don't you see how unlikely that is?

Levy simply cannot sack him in the aftermath of winning our first trophy in 17 years. It would be the most Spurs-y thing we'd ever done. No matter what your gripe with Ange, you have to acknowledge that he's just done what Hoddle, Jol, Villas Boas, Redknapp, Sherwood, MoPo, Mourinho, Nuno and conte failed to do. The only manager who has won anything since Ramos, and before that George Graham.

Your belief we need to change the manager when he's given us something we achieve ever 15 years on average since the mid 1980s is literally the definition of Spurs-y and also of Madness.

He came fifth first season without Kane. He won the Europa League in second season with a team that had virtually every first eleven player missing for extended periods.

Have a really good think if you want to change after that. Cos I know I don't.

 

[Yiddo]

Don't you see how unlikely that is?

Levy simply cannot sack him in the aftermath of winning our first trophy in 17 years. It would be the most Spurs-y thing we'd ever done. No matter what your gripe with Ange, you have to acknowledge that he's just done what Hoddle, Jol, Villas Boas, Redknapp, Sherwood, MoPo, Mourinho, Nuno and conte failed to do. The only manager who has won anything since Ramos, and before that George Graham.

Your belief we need to change the manager when he's given us something we achieve ever 15 years on average since the mid 1980s is literally the definition of Spurs-y and also of Madness.

He came fifth first season without Kane. He won the Europa League in second season with a team that had virtually every first eleven player missing for extended periods.

Have a really good think if you want to change after that. Cos I know I don't.

The Europa league win papers over massive holes and if this was one of our rivals we would be desperate for them to keep the manager in charge as it would be clear as day that next season will be the same if not worse. I really am happy we won the Europa and its a massive achievement but we were favourites going into it and didn't exactly look convincing throughout the group stages and early knock outs. The performances and results have been tinkle poor way beyond this season. Tactically he is not great and we will get embarrassed in the Champions league.

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

Disagree, much as I would love to be winning the league and the cl out pedigree is based on fa cups and European football! So I don’t think we can or should discount them.

The best teams aim to win every competition and that should be our goal too. And maybe just maybe big ange is the one to do it.
He’s got my vote for now and yes I am a fickle fan!

 

[carl]

The Europa league win papers over massive holes and if this was one of our rivals we would be desperate for them to keep the manager in charge as it would be clear as day that next season will be the same if not worse. I really am happy we won the Europa and its a massive achievement but we were favourites going into it and didn't exactly look convincing throughout the group stages and early knock outs. The performances and results have been tinkle poor way beyond this season. Tactically he is not great and we will get embarrassed in the Champions league.

I remember we were singing "We want you to stay" to Arteta after he had won the fa cup and Arsenal finished 8th!!

 

[DubSpur]

I get it. Just we took so long to get back to being considered one of the big 6 (city and chelsea being doped).
I don't want to go back to being a midtable club. Saudi Sportswashing Machine, villa and forest are now being doped.
Utd are in trouble. As big as they are they have a massive job on their hands trying to stay afloat financially. Will have to sell players just to balance the books. Which will be difficult the wages they are on.
If the clubs coming up decide to really go for it and are smart. Next season could be very competitive.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine aren't being doped, they are being run properly and staying within P&S rules with no huge signings.
Villa are close to being fudged, with an unsustainable wage bill. Players will need to be sold in the next year or two, with losing out on CL having a huge impact on them.
Forest are having their day in the sun and will be back to lower table next season just as happened with countless teams like them before.
The teams coming up will be the same as every year, fighting to survive. One might do well and stay up.

 

[fernadez]

I predicted, before the game last week, that the Euphoria that stemmed from a win would understandably cloud the judgement on Ange. I didn't exactly have to be Nostradamus either. I have softened on Ange since Wednesday. I have seen some humility from him and the love that his players feel for him. Also impressed how he has supported a number of players such as Biss and Johnson who became whipping boys for the anger with this season's league performances.

It's difficult for the club to sack him without heaping pressure on his successor. The context around the trophy win will not matter to most fans.

But when the joy has died down logically there are still questions that have not been answered

1) He has won a trophy and good on him. But there were specific circumstances around that - he was able to focus on it, forgetting the league entirely and protecting his preferred defence for multiple games. I doubt he will be able to replicate those circumstances next season nor will he be cut the same slack. Especially if Paratici replaces Munn as is widely expected.

2) He played a certain way in the Europa League knock outs that is not his preferred style because his back was up against the wall. On the one hand that shows pragmatism, but we know he favours his attacking playing style. Can he fine tune it? Unfortunately he hasn't really succeeded in doing that over the last 2 seasons. And that is a worry for me. I don't necessarily see this as an Alex Ferguson moment.

3) Can he cope with playing in multiple tournaments, the injuries that that will entail, and ensure the players coming in will adapt to his preferred style? We know he hasn't done that well this season.

This season has been an anomaly so it's very difficult to make a decision about Ange's future. But I suspect once the league starts and he has to once again focus on multiple priorities, we will see the same issues arising. My preference is for him to go now by mutual consent, head held high and we bring in a different coach now rather than midway through next season. But I think he will stay. I am less annoyed by that than I would have been before this week.

#2 is the massive one for me. He's shown two widely different styles and nothing in the middle. He's shown one of those styles when he had no choice. Going into a new season how is he going to blend the two to make us a balanced outfit? Is he capable?

Personally I don't think so, there's been nothing in the last two years that lends to him wanting to play a more pragmatic style. You don't get to bin off competitions (or say you did) every season.

I don't think he'll get moved on in light of the cup win, and I can see us being in November, injuries, dodgy form and a new list of reasons why if nothing is changed about the way we set up for games.

I always like the fan test when it comes to managers.

Do I want Arteta to stay? Yes cause I don't think he can get them over the line. Amorom? Yes cause he's a not suited. Every non fan I speak to wants Ange to stay, while Spurs fans are divided.