Ange in or out?

[Spoonman]

But I don’t think we’re seeing Ange’s system at all. We’ve been robbed of it by injuries.

The idea that Ange doesn’t adapt or fix things is so simplistic. He seems to have done alright with corners.

We have and are seeing Ange's system, for nearly 2 seasons now. It's just been proven as not effective at the top level.

 

[harr1984]

I’d be disappointed but could see that my team were unlucky as we controlled the game. Today was the very definition of lucky for us.

I dont doubt that would be the case with you Rob, but the majority on here? Not so much. Remember opening game vs Leicester? We battered them, but only got a point and the narrative on here was not 'Ah, we played well and were unlucky. Onto the next one.' Same for example against Saudi Sportswashing Machine away where we lost and should have got a point if not more. The argument was always its the result that matters, not the performance. Until we ourselves actually have the audactiy to get something from a game we didn't really deserve to and then guess what the narrative is....

 

[fernadez]

I dont doubt that would be the case with you Rob, but the majority on here? Not so much. Remember opening game vs Leicester? We battered them, but only got a point and the narrative on here was not 'Ah, we played well and were unlucky. Onto the next one.' Same for example against Saudi Sportswashing Machine away where we lost and should have got a point if not more. The argument was always its the result that matters, not the performance. Until we ourselves actually have the audactiy to get something from a game we didn't really deserve to and then guess what the narrative is....

The performance matters up to a point though doesn't it? The Leicester game as i recall was accepted, Solanke's first game, snatched at a couple he should have scored. The Saudi Sportswashing Machine game was conceeding the same sort of goal that we had previously so it was fair that the result wasn't accepted in the same vein. And that for me is the issue. I can't remember a game where we have performed for 90 mins, even games we've won, before we've scored the other team could have got a couple.
A manager can get away with results without performances, and can get away with performances without results, but having both at the same time means questions will be asked. If we were playing teams off the park and being undone by wondergoals, you'd say fair enough, but we're stuggling to tie our shoe laces correctly.

 

[Muttley]

I think there was one key part of the B'mouth first goal that confirmed to me why Ange needs to go. It is all to do with Bissouma and it is partially the player's fault. When we have that ball before the misplaced pass Bents and Sarr have gone forward quite centrally to support our overload.

What Bissouma should do - he should make sure he is sitting centrally in a number 6 position with a bias to the right side so if we do lose possession he can manage it as the number 6. What should have happened is Kirkez gets the ball and as he comes down our right, Biss sprints over and slows him down. Kirkez should have had to take Biss on to get to the byline. Kirkez shouldn't have had the freedom of our pitch to play that amazing ball.

What Bissouma did do - Bissouma saw that his 2 midfield mates had gone so went left into a vacant area so he could also be available for a pass if required to join the attack. That took him completely the wrong side of the centre circle to impact the defensive structure. He didn't even move to the inverted full-back position on the right. He moved to a position that was ahead of Spence who was at LB anyway. He just wanted to be involved in the attack.

Now I'm not saying that Biss would have stopped that goal. What I'm saying with 100% confidence that the chances of them scoring that goal massively reduce if he is being a proper number 6. I'm saying that is never a focus of Ange and his coaches on the training ground. I'm saying that we see this nonsense every week with the number 6 role.

I'm sick of Ange's arrogance when it comes to the manager playbook and defending. He needs his P45 because he is not adapting to the Prem.

 

[harr1984]

I think there was one key part of the B'mouth first goal that confirmed to me why Ange needs to go. It is all to do with Bissouma and it is partially the player's fault. When we have that ball before the misplaced pass Bents and Sarr have gone forward quite centrally to support our overload.

What Bissouma should do - he should make sure he is sitting centrally in a number 6 position with a bias to the right side so if we do lose possession he can manage it as the number 6. What should have happened is Kirkez gets the ball and as he comes down our right, Biss sprints over and slows him down. Kirkez should have had to take Biss on to get to the byline. Kirkez shouldn't have had the freedom of our pitch to play that amazing ball.

What Bissouma did do - Bissouma saw that his 2 midfield mates had gone so went left into a vacant area so he could also be available for a pass if required to join the attack. That took him completely the wrong side of the centre circle to impact the defensive structure. He didn't even move to the inverted full-back position on the right. He moved to a position that was ahead of Spence who was at LB anyway. He just wanted to be involved in the attack.

Now I'm not saying that Biss would have stopped that goal. What I'm saying with 100% confidence that the chances of them scoring that goal massively reduce if he is being a proper number 6. I'm saying that is never a focus of Ange and his coaches on the training ground. I'm saying that we see this nonsense every week with the number 6 role.

I'm sick of Ange's arrogance when it comes to the manager playbook and defending. He needs his P45 because he is not adapting to the Prem.

Am not agreeing/disagreeing with your assessment of Ange, but I like this example you have highlighted and this sort of example reinforces our need for a proper no.6 of genuine quality regardless of what you want to pin on Ange - I do think we need this type of specialist, our CMs all have a couple of decent attributes but at the same time very different from each other. This is IMO the position where we need a genuine quality upgrade the most....

 

[fernadez]

Am not agreeing/disagreeing with your assessment of Ange, but I like this example you have highlighted and this sort of example reinforces our need for a proper no.6 of genuine quality regardless of what you want to pin on Ange - I do think we need this type of specialist, our CMs all have a couple of decent attributes but at the same time very different from each other. This is IMO the position where we need a genuine quality upgrade the most....

The issue is that whoever plays there would be instructed to do the same thing. Biss ain't moving to the left of his own back, it's what he's been told to do. Doesn't matter if we sign Rodri if the tactics don't tell him to play the role in a certain way.

 

[Spoonman]

The performance matters up to a point though doesn't it? The Leicester game as i recall was accepted, Solanke's first game, snatched at a couple he should have scored. The Saudi Sportswashing Machine game was conceeding the same sort of goal that we had previously so it was fair that the result wasn't accepted in the same vein. And that for me is the issue. I can't remember a game where we have performed for 90 mins, even games we've won, before we've scored the other team could have got a couple.
A manager can get away with results without performances, and can get away with performances without results, but having both at the same time means questions will be asked. If we were playing teams off the park and being undone by wondergoals, you'd say fair enough, but we're stuggling to tie our shoe laces correctly.

Exactly this. I've said a few times after defeats that I was more concerned by the performance than the result. The times I've read on here "Well, we are only losing games by the odd goal, so no big deal". Some don't seem bothered at all that in most of those games we were awful for most of the 90mins. It boggles my mind.

Look how many golden chances have we conceded in the first 5 mins of games recently. Villa, Ipswich, City and yesterday. It's a recurring theme and a fundamental failing of the system. You also have to wonder what we do in training as our players seem totally unprepared to deal with the opposition pressing. It's panic stations everytime.

 

[RigorMortis]

It comes from 15ish years of watching him. Every time he's taken a step up, he's eventually succeeded. When he quit the Australian national team job on the eve of a World Cup to manage Yokohama, I thought he was a bit crazy (I'm an Aussie and was living in Japan then too). But he proved me very wrong.

I understand many don't have that perspective and even people who do would still disagree with me. But there hasn't been even a whisper of him being under pressure from the board or players, so I also feel confident that I'm not alone in my views.

I would love to share your optimism but I just can’t see it. I appreciate you say I am Pooh poohing his achievements but when I look at Ange’s record in competitions such as the World Cuo with Australia or Europe with Celtic, where in my opinion he came up against a calibre of opposition that is comparable to what he is now facing week in week out he doesn’t come out impressively.

He lost all three games at the World Cup ( although it appears from research the performances were “spirited”), conceding 3 times in all three games and his performance in the CL and Europa conference/league is well documented. he’s had four wins, none in the CL and hasn’t been able to progress from any group or knock out.

As for being under pressure, it does seem bizarre. My opinion which I appreciate isn’t worth much is that the board are afraid of being held up again as being trigger happy and this time wrongly are stalling on pulling the trigger. They surely see what we are all seeing. as for the players, you rarely hear much until after the event when the manager is gone. But I really fail to see how this run which has been as I said since November 2023, can really inspire any confidence

 

[harr1984]

The issue is that whoever plays there would be instructed to do the same thing. Biss ain't moving to the left of his own back, it's what he's been told to do. Doesn't matter if we sign Rodri if the tactics don't tell him to play the role in a certain way.

You can put it all on Ange if you want, I'm bored of debating the subject to be honest. The fact is our CMs are jack of all trades master of none and we need a quality no.6 regardless of manager, it's one of if not the most important positions on the pitch.....

 

[RigorMortis]

I beg to disagree. I think people overrate the quality of our squad and I think you are under the grass is greener syndrome. Iraola has done well, yes. I think he looks good because he is at Bournemouth.

It’s not really about the quality of the squad here mate, I don’t think we will be league champions but we certainly have the squad to be in the conversation from 4th to 6th at least.
It’s gross underachievement. What’s more concerning is even from a position of relative strength after we beat Villa 4-0 away last season and a relatively fit squad, Ange was unable to inspire performances to get us into the CL and he’s got even worse this season. His brand of football and his ability to translate into results just
Isn’t working. like. I said in struggle to find a comparable underperformance over such a period of time apart from Glenn’s back in the early 2000s and for me Glenn had a far inferior squad and bigger issues to deal with.

 

[billyiddo]

The issue is that whoever plays there would be instructed to do the same thing. Biss ain't moving to the left of his own back, it's what he's been told to do. Doesn't matter if we sign Rodri if the tactics don't tell him to play the role in a certain way.

Yeah if people think a certain player is going to fix anything they aren't really paying attention imho - it's the role of a 6/DM that is missing, not the player, and that comes via the setup of the team.

 

[Muttley]

The issue is that whoever plays there would be instructed to do the same thing. Biss ain't moving to the left of his own back, it's what he's been told to do. Doesn't matter if we sign Rodri if the tactics don't tell him to play the role in a certain way.

This exactly.

You get Bissouma on the training ground and when the ball goes up the left you get him into the right number 6 position. When the ball goes down the right ditto. Then you take Bents and do the same thing. Then Sarr, then Gray, then Berg.

This is coaching. We can always want new players but what we need most is better coaching. Ange has had plenty of time to prove his method of two 8's and one 10 doesn't work. It's suicide.

 

[fernadez]

Yeah if people think a certain player is going to fix anything they aren't really paying attention - it's the role of a 6/DM that is missing, not the player, and that comes via the setup of the team.

Like Bissouma isn't capable of holding his position and covering his full backs. It's the same as the full backs being dug out for being out of position. It's the design of the tactics that are leaving areas of the pitch exposed, doesn't matter who the player is.

 

[Muttley]

You can put it all on Ange if you want, I'm bored of debating the subject to be honest. The fact is our CMs are jack of all trades master of none and we need a quality no.6 regardless of manager, it's one of if not the most important positions on the pitch.....

It is what the guys said. It is more about coaching than new players, but of course better players always helps.

The other thought process is that a more senior specialist number 6 would probably go head to head with his manager and call out the BS of how the manager is asking the number 6 role to be played. Ange would either have to concede that he is wrong or force a specialist to do unnatural things. That won't end well.

 

[monkeybarry]

It comes from 15ish years of watching him. Every time he's taken a step up, he's eventually succeeded. When he quit the Australian national team job on the eve of a World Cup to manage Yokohama, I thought he was a bit crazy (I'm an Aussie and was living in Japan then too). But he proved me very wrong.

I understand many don't have that perspective and even people who do would still disagree with me. But there hasn't been even a whisper of him being under pressure from the board or players, so I also feel confident that I'm not alone in my views.

Well he hasn't in two years this time.
What evidence is there that he is taking us in that direction?

 

[Mikey10]

Look how many golden chances have we conceded in the first 5 mins of games recently.

We start games in a daze, and drift through the first half of most matches, occasionally rallying for a short period in the second half. It's so clear that he is not motivating the players.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Like Bissouma isn't capable of holding his position and covering his full backs. It's the same as the full backs being dug out for being out of position. It's the design of the tactics that are leaving areas of the pitch exposed, doesn't matter who the player is.

Biss was great in that role at Brighton when that was his instructions.

 

[Grays_1890]

We start games in a daze, and drift through the first half of most matches, occasionally rallying for a short period in the second half. It's so clear that he is not motivating the players.

If he is and the players are backing him AND this is the showing..........I think thats an even worse endorsement.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

The performance matters up to a point though doesn't it? The Leicester game as i recall was accepted, Solanke's first game, snatched at a couple he should have scored. The Saudi Sportswashing Machine game was conceeding the same sort of goal that we had previously so it was fair that the result wasn't accepted in the same vein. And that for me is the issue. I can't remember a game where we have performed for 90 mins, even games we've won, before we've scored the other team could have got a couple.
A manager can get away with results without performances, and can get away with performances without results, but having both at the same time means questions will be asked. If we were playing teams off the park and being undone by wondergoals, you'd say fair enough, but we're stuggling to tie our shoe laces correctly.

Yeah we always give up chances. Even the game we beat City 4-0, while I'm not denying we played exceptionally well in attack in that game, if we are being honest, if Haaland had his shooting boots on that day it would have been a different result. While you always have to ride your luck through the season I feel like the system inherently requires a good portion of luck in a majority of games at this level and that ultimately accounts for our very high loss ratio under this manager as in the PL, up against this calibre of opponent week in, week out, your luck runs out relatively quickly.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Yeah if people think a certain player is going to fix anything they aren't really paying attention imho - it's the role of a 6/DM that is missing, not the player, and that comes via the setup of the team.

Oh someone actually watches football and gets it.

I love Wharton at Palace but even him who I think is a diamond would suffer in our system. Hell even Rodri would, Rice to.