Ange in or out?

[Finney Is Back]

We are far from the only club that expect coaches to work with what they're given and the club strategy. You buy Neto and you likely don't ever see Moore in a Spurs shirt this season. Similar to Gallagher and Bergvall. I do think the manager could have been a better fit in that regard. He clearly values experience to the point of playing an out-of-form experienced player out of position over a young player. Whereas if I compare that to Poch who was willing to dump experienced players for youth....I think again the club need to marry the coach to the strategy.

I think we have had the youngest average age team in the PL this season, even before the injuries we were in the top 3 youngest.

Ange has more than shown he was willing to dump experience for youth in the players we let go in the summer as well as the ones we brought to the club. IMO he allowed it to go too far in that direction but I think is is clear that Ange has taken a long term view.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Under Poch we stopped signing the excellent young players that were such good signings for us early on under him. (Not assigning blame). That continued to not happen until Paratici came in. That's imo the main failure, the main thing that caused this mess. Other factors too, as you point out. But to me that's the main one.

It's not like Mourinho and Conte got all the players they wanted, obviously. But it was a clear short term focus. Probably players the weren't (always) their first choices. But still. Here and now signings. The exception being "club signings" under Paratici like Sarr and Spence that Conte then didn't use or barely used.

At one point we stopped signing anyone at all

There is no mystery why our signings were few and poor for a period, we had the worst funded and structured recruitment department in the top 2 divisions in English football and had Hitchen running things.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Interesting perhaps that all of Eze, Neto and Gallagher have had pretty underwhelming seasons and maybe had peaked as big fish in their small ponds

Eh? Gallagher has been a mainstay in the Atletico Madrid team that is 2nd in Spain just 2 points behind Real Madrid in 1st place

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yes most of the time the role a coach has in making improvements is overstated when you actually look at the real detail of their careers.

Your Willian example is actually a really good example. Silva didn't develop Willian at all, Arteta just used him poorly. Performing back a level that you've already previously established yourself is not development.

But you class any other development as just ‘natural progression’

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't know how good those older U21 players are.

League one/two quality? Worse?

Putting them on towards the end of games, with just about all of our games having been in the balance towards the end of the second half recently. I'm not sure that's a good option.

From what I have seen I don’t think any who are currently here and fit will make it at PL level or even Championship level.

 

[Bishop]

But you class any other development as just ‘natural progression’

I class the playing of an 18 year at a higher professional than he is used to as natural development. Obviously in his first game or two he may show nerves or make mistakes it's natural. As he plays more games and gets more comfortable at this level his performance levels out. I don't really consider that coach led development, it's what would likely happen coach or no coach when they are exposed to the higher level of football.

I do consider what Ange has done with Porro and Johnson as development. Both are more experienced players, both had a lower base level than what they now show. Their improvements I think can be fairly attributed to Ange.

I don't believe a player like Kulu who has already played at a high level, can be said to have developed when he has just returned to that higher level. That's form and utilisation not development.

 

[Mikey10]

The below quotes from the article reads like player welfare is seen as a secondary concern to getting the team playing how he wants as quick as possible

“(The hamstring injuries) are obviously something we want to get on top of but it’s not new to me either,” Postecoglou said in December 2021 after Kyogo Furuhashi was injured in Celtic’s Europa League victory over Real Betis. “The way we play, I understand — and have done at the clubs I’ve been at — that the beginnings are always difficult. We play differently and train differently and it takes players time to adjust to that, and along the way we obviously pay a price.

“But the one thing I’ve never done, and I won’t do in my whole career, is compromise the football team we want to be because we are not quite ready to be there. I’d rather keep going at the pace we are going and it means we are going to have some casualties along the way.”



When I was reading the article first time round I was expecting him to follow up "But the one thing I’ve never done, and I won’t do in my whole career, is compromise..." with something like "the welfare of my players" but he said the complete opposite!!!

Been of the opinion for a while that the bloke is an ideologue. That view just gets firmer the more that I see on the pitch, and the more that I get to know about how he operates.

 

[metalgear]

ange is responsible for registering players for europa - having 5 goalkeepers, no spence or reguillon is coming back to limit his options.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Been of the opinion for a while that the bloke is an ideologue. That view just gets firmer the more that I see on the pitch, and the more that I get to know about how he operates.

Listen to the pod link I put in earlier
Gives you context which is missing in those quotes

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think we have had the youngest average age team in the PL this season, even before the injuries we were in the top 3 youngest.

Ange has more than shown he was willing to dump experience for youth in the players we let go in the summer as well as the ones we brought to the club. IMO he allowed it to go too far in that direction but I think is is clear that Ange has taken a long term view.

Surely that's not including Arsenal?

 

[Mikey10]

Listen to the pod link I put in earlier
Gives you context which is missing in those quotes

Will do.

There is so much evidence from so many aspects of his work with us now that I’m pretty clear on it, to be honest. But will definitely give it a listen.

 

[afsoc4life]

Been of the opinion for a while that the bloke is an ideologue. That view just gets firmer the more that I see on the pitch, and the more that I get to know about how he operates.

I would be interested in knowing which manager has changed their ideology over time. If I hire a Mourinho, I know what his ideology is. Ditto a Guardiola, a Conte, an Inzaghi, a Moyes, a Dyche, an Allardyce. Or do you mean ideologue in another way?

 

[afsoc4life]

At one point we stopped signing anyone at all

There is no mystery why our signings were few and poor for a period, we had the worst funded and structured recruitment department in the top 2 divisions in English football and had Hitchen running things.

And to make it worse we had some Spurs fans claiming there was no player that would improve the team. Painful memories.

 

[DeanoAustin]

And to make it worse we had some Spurs fans claiming there was no player that would improve the team. Painful memories.

My favourite argument at the time was that some people were hypothesizing that when Poch said "we need to be brave", he meant that it would be brave to not sign anyone and keep the same squad.

Mental gymnastics I think they call that...

 

[parklane1]

My favourite argument at the time was that some people were hypothesizing that when Poch said "we need to be brave", he meant that it would be brave to not sign anyone and keep the same squad.

Mental gymnastics I think they call that...

Another way of saying it that opinions are like arseholes, everyone has got one.

 

[billyiddo]

My favourite argument at the time was that some people were hypothesizing that when Poch said "we need to be brave", he meant that it would be brave to not sign anyone and keep the same squad.

Mental gymnastics I think they call that...

Think I might have been on that train

 

[Lilbaz]

Another way of saying it that opinions are like arseholes, everyone has got one.

And they stink of brick.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Will do.

There is so much evidence from so many aspects of his work with us now that I’m pretty clear on it, to be honest. But will definitely give it a listen.

Well this go talking I’d suggest is the best expert
Especially as he worked with Poch and Ange at different times

 

[Mikey10]

Mental gymnastics I think they call that...

Plenty of that still going with some as they analyse our stats from the last year and tell us it’s all looking good.