Ange in or out?

[braineclipse]

yes because the instructions from Ange are to never deviate from his style of football.

so instead of going long to a player like Solanke when 3-0 up, and playing counter attack/sitting deep, we are passing it out from the back (as you can see in the second pic we are running back after losing an attack, not sat deep), with a goalkeeper notorious for not being able to pass it out from the back (again because we never deviate from those principles).

Forster is of course at fault for both, but the instructions come from the manager to play that way.

His failure to adapt to in-game management will cost him his job. People complain about the injuries but are ignoring our poor form throughout 2024. hell we lost to Ipswich with both Vicario and Romero on the pitch! only VDV missed out, the rest was our starting XI.

Why cant people accept the potential possibility that Ange isn't the right manager despite the process being the right one to follow?

Sitting back and going long isn't necessarily the best way to see out a lead. It's one way, but it's not the only way.

I don't think anyone are ignoring that we also had issues before being this badly impacted by injuries. But it's a very different situation we've been since the injuries got really bad and before. Look at results, performances, underlying numbers or whatever. It's night and day.

Most people seemingly accept that it may end up that Ange isn't the man for the job. But that is a very different thing to agreeing with you that his in game management will cost him his job.

 

[Diamond Lights]

2 games, right? Brighton and Chelsea? We've not lost any others under Ange when leading by 2 goals. But this season alone, we've go on to win big because we don't stop playing in these matches:

- 4-0 Everton
- 3-0 Qarabag
- 3-0 Man Utd
- 4-1 West Ham
- 4-1 Aston Villa
- 4-0 Emirates Marketing Project
- 5-0 Southampton

Now, that's not saying we don't have problems. We clearly do. But this idea of "we're too manic when we lead and it costs us points" is extremely misguided.

State of those teams though. You can get away with it with Southampton, Qarabag, an out of form west ham and Man U (City was crazy but then as we saw they were in a rut throughout and still struggling).

Not one result against a team in decent form or style. PL Table top 10 as follows:

Liverpool
Arsenal
Forest
Chelsea
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
City
Bournemouth
Fulham
Villa
Brighton

Our corresponding results against each of those teams?

Loss.
Loss.
Loss.
Loss.
Loss.
Win.
Loss.
Draw.
Win.
Loss.

That is shocking.

 

[glasgowspur]

yes because the instructions from Ange are to never deviate from his style of football.

so instead of going long to a player like Solanke when 3-0 up, and playing counter attack/sitting deep, we are passing it out from the back (as you can see in the second pic we are running back after losing an attack, not sat deep), with a goalkeeper notorious for not being able to pass it out from the back (again because we never deviate from those principles).

Forster is of course at fault for both, but the instructions come from the manager to play that way.

His failure to adapt to in-game management will cost him his job. People complain about the injuries but are ignoring our poor form throughout 2024. hell we lost to Ipswich with both Vicario and Romero on the pitch! only VDV missed out, the rest was our starting XI.

Why cant people accept the potential possibility that Ange isn't the right manager despite the process being the right one to follow?

Probably for the same reasons that some people won't accept the "but if we just do this it'll be better", or the posting of random journos or YouTube "analysis" (insert eyeroll emoji) saying "this is what's wrong with spurs and how to fix it".

Things are not good atm, if there was a clear and obvious fix I would be among the first to jump on it, but some of the stuff being touted ridiculous.

Rightly or wrongly one of the most oft thrown criticisms of ange is that he has no experience in the big leagues, but let's take the advice of journalists, YouTubers and forum posters, because they all have experience of managing at the top, top level.

 

[tommysvr]

State of those teams though. You can get away with it with Southampton, Qarabag, an out of form west ham and Man U (City was crazy but then as we saw they were in a rut throughout and still struggling).

Not one result against a team in decent form or style. PL Table top 10 as follows:

Liverpool
Arsenal
Forest
Chelsea
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
City
Bournemouth
Fulham
Villa
Brighton

Our corresponding results against each of those teams?

Loss.
Loss.
Loss.
Loss.
Loss.
Win.
Loss.
Draw.
Win.
Loss.

That is shocking.

If you’re going to put an asterisk on all of our wins then I see why you’re miserable. Nothing will ever be good enough for people like you. You‘ll be back here complaining again when our next manager goes through a rough patch.

You’ve also managed to completely miss the point of the conversation you started, which was about how we struggle when we don’t shut up shop.

 

[Diamond Lights]

If you’re going to put an asterisk on all of our wins then I see why you’re miserable. Nothing will ever be good enough for people like you. You‘ll be back here complaining again when our next manager goes through a rough patch.

You’ve also managed to completely miss the point of the conversation you started, which was about how we struggle when we don’t shut up shop.

all 2 of the wins against top 10?

How can teams like Bournemouth and Forest be higher than us? "oh but the injuries" except a lot of the losses i pointed out happened when we didn't have injury issues.

But yes you're right i digressed from my point about shutting up shop. My thoughts on that still stand. It's why people like Carragher and Neville have also said the same thing. If you have injuries in key places, you need to adapt. You cant just continue to expect the same outcome with B list parts.

Ange will be the reason Ange gets sacked, despite people claiming it's an injury issue. Look through 2024 in it's entirety, including second half of last season. Remember when we beat Villa last season?

We were then 2points behind Villa with a game in hand.

Lost 3 of our last 5 games to end the season. It seems like with Ange, folks are desperate to ignore failings because he's not Conte and Jose, so can ignore everything on that basis.

 

[glasgowspur]

all 2 of the wins against top 10?

How can teams like Bournemouth and Forest be higher than us? "oh but the injuries" except a lot of the losses i pointed out happened when we didn't have injury issues.

But yes you're right i digressed from my point about shutting up shop. My thoughts on that still stand. It's why people like Carragher and Neville have also said the same thing. If you have injuries in key places, you need to adapt. You cant just continue to expect the same outcome with B list parts.

Ange will be the reason Ange gets sacked, despite people claiming it's an injury issue. Look through 2024 in it's entirety, including second half of last season. Remember when we beat Villa last season?

We were then 2points behind Villa with a game in hand.

Lost 3 of our last 5 games to end the season. It seems like with Ange, folks are desperate to ignore failings because he's not Conte and Jose, so can ignore everything on that basis.

Forest are also higher than Chelsea and city, not to mention villa, utd, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and the darling team of the last few seasons Brighton.
It's a crazy year, it's what makes this league the most entertaining league in the world, let's not take away from forests achievements.

 

[Diamond Lights]

Forest are also higher than Chelsea and city, not to mention villa, utd, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and the darling team of the last few seasons Brighton.
It's a crazy year, it's what makes this league the most entertaining league in the world, let's not take away from forests achievements.

completely agree, but therein lies the issue with folks crying about injuries. So called lesser managers and lesser teams can manage to deliver.

And my main gripe is people seem to absolve Ange of any responsibility for things. as i said before:

Can one of the Ange backers tell me why it will all be ok, where is the evidence it will all click and fall into place when we have players back when this didn't happen tail end of last year? I keep seeing "it's down to injuries" but where is the evidence of this, given we have lost games with near full strength teams out such as Ipswich at home? we had VDV missing and that was it, no one else. surely then we should win right? Brighton away? Leicester draw first game of the season? Giving Palace their first win?

Anyone who dare challenges Ange and his methods seems to be ostracised. Maybe i'm wrong and it will all come good. but there seems to be no self-reflection that Ange may not be the right guy.

 

[braineclipse]

all 2 of the wins against top 10?

How can teams like Bournemouth and Forest be higher than us? "oh but the injuries" except a lot of the losses i pointed out happened when we didn't have injury issues.

But yes you're right i digressed from my point about shutting up shop. My thoughts on that still stand. It's why people like Carragher and Neville have also said the same thing. If you have injuries in key places, you need to adapt. You cant just continue to expect the same outcome with B list parts.

Ange will be the reason Ange gets sacked, despite people claiming it's an injury issue. Look through 2024 in it's entirety, including second half of last season. Remember when we beat Villa last season?

We were then 2points behind Villa with a game in hand.

Lost 3 of our last 5 games to end the season. It seems like with Ange, folks are desperate to ignore failings because he's not Conte and Jose, so can ignore everything on that basis.

He has changed things a bit.

When these real injury problems hit, 8-9-10 players missing at the same time and over time every team struggles, regardless of what the manager does. Last season it was Saudi Sportswashing Machine IIRC, this season us and City.

Before the injuries really hit we were 5thish and our underlying numbers were really rather good. We had issues, but imo looked significantly improved from the second half of last season.

People disagreeing with you on what are and aren't failings isn't the same as someone ignoring failings.

 

[harr1984]

completely agree, but therein lies the issue with folks crying about injuries. So called lesser managers and lesser teams can manage to deliver.

And my main gripe is people seem to absolve Ange of any responsibility for things. as i said before:

Can one of the Ange backers tell me why it will all be ok, where is the evidence it will all click and fall into place when we have players back when this didn't happen tail end of last year? I keep seeing "it's down to injuries" but where is the evidence of this, given we have lost games with near full strength teams out such as Ipswich at home? we had VDV missing and that was it, no one else. surely then we should win right? Brighton away? Leicester draw first game of the season? Giving Palace their first win?

Anyone who dare challenges Ange and his methods seems to be ostracised. Maybe i'm wrong and it will all come good. but there seems to be no self-reflection that Ange may not be the right guy.

Just my thoughts on this, but Ange always talks about the long term right? So to so many it seems oh so obvious that Ange has to adapt especially because of our horrendous injuries - do you not think Ange would realise this? He continues to do what he does because IMO he has been given assurances this is very much a long term plan and he believes long term sticking to his desired setup will benefit the team.

So yes, with the injury situation (and we have always had injuries, just that the past 6 weeks or so been more severe) it is painful with juggling that and all the competitions we are in. But Ange is looking to the long term benefit, that doesn't mean it will be evident this season. So you can question whether his tactics will ever enable us to 'win', but I find the complaining week after week about why doesn't he adapt or change this and that a bit pointless as he will be doing this regardless for what he believes will be beneficial long term - whether he is the right guy or not, nobody knows or pretends to as far as I can see, just some are happy to see where it goes, it's not like we are collecting trophies left, right and centre usually so I'm in no rush and with some decent January acquisitions even if just for short term could still finish up having a decent season.

Just my opinion obviously, but that's my take on things....

 

[Finney Is Back]

It's quite clear why he hasn't played that many games, he probs desperately wanted to break into Liverpool's team and thought he was Allison's heir but now sees he isn't and thus wants a move. That Liverpool don't see him as Allison's replacement is more interesting than the number of games he's played. It would be very interesting to know why, everytime I've watched him he looks really smart.

I think because Liverpool being Liverpool (i.e. really wanting to be the very best club team in the world) saw an opportunity to sign one of the best three keepers in the World so took it.

Unfortunately we're not a club that shop in the best 3 in the world market so looking to take the cast offs from the clubs who do shop in that market can be a sensible option.

 

[Finney Is Back]

yes because the instructions from Ange are to never deviate from his style of football.

so instead of going long to a player like Solanke when 3-0 up, and playing counter attack/sitting deep, we are passing it out from the back (as you can see in the second pic we are running back after losing an attack, not sat deep), with a goalkeeper notorious for not being able to pass it out from the back (again because we never deviate from those principles).

Forster is of course at fault for both, but the instructions come from the manager to play that way.

His failure to adapt to in-game management will cost him his job. People complain about the injuries but are ignoring our poor form throughout 2024. hell we lost to Ipswich with both Vicario and Romero on the pitch! only VDV missed out, the rest was our starting XI.

Why cant people accept the potential possibility that Ange isn't the right manager despite the process being the right one to follow?

Disagree. We do naturally sit deeper when winning and trying to see out a game. Also passing out from the back is a way of counter-attacking (the opposition over commit to the press which enables the other team to pass through the press and successfully counter attack).

Sorry but in the second pic we were in posession of the ball immediately prior to that moment - it was a back pass from Gray (the safest option -which I think is what you seem to want?) where I think Forster was planning to go long with the clearance but but just took far too long to do so.

I find it strange how people do not see that we do play differently when winning in games to how we do when drawing of losing in games.

 

[Finney Is Back]

2 games, right? Brighton and Chelsea? We've not lost any others under Ange when leading by 2 goals. But this season alone, we've go on to win big because we don't stop playing in these matches:

- 4-0 Everton
- 3-0 Qarabag
- 3-0 Man Utd
- 4-1 West Ham
- 4-1 Aston Villa
- 4-0 Emirates Marketing Project
- 5-0 Southampton

Now, that's not saying we don't have problems. We clearly do. But this idea of "we're too manic when we lead and it costs us points" is extremely misguided.

Also against Brighton we didn't concede the 1st and 2nd goals due to us overcommitting to attack. We conceded those two goals because we had taken our foot off the gas and were allowing Brighton more possession. I think if we had carried on playing with the same intensity we would've won that game.

Interestingly I saw the Glasgow Rangers coach talking after they had beaten Celtic the other day. He said that at 2-0 and even 3-0 up he told the players how important it was for them to carry on pressing all over the pitch instead of dropping off as doing so would allow Celtic back into the game and them getting a goal back gives the game a whole new perspective.

 

[afsoc4life]

Also against Brighton we didn't concede the 1st and 2nd goals due to us overcommitting to attack. We conceded those two goals because we had taken our foot off the gas and were allowing Brighton more possession. I think if we had carried on playing with the same intensity we would've won that game.

Interestingly I saw the Glasgow Rangers coach talking after they had beaten Celtic the other day. He said that at 2-0 and even 3-0 up he told the players how important it was for them to carry on pressing all over the pitch instead of dropping off as doing so would allow Celtic back into the game and them getting a goal back gives the game a whole new perspective.

I agree on this. I am sure Ange was worried once he saw the first Brighton goal in that game. For me, our LB in that match was not focused and it tends to happen quite a few times now. I am being patient because I know he is not the finished work but for an international playing for a country known for defence, it was very disappointing. His performance was not good - in a way I presume that is what gave Djed a way back into the team.

 

[monkeybarry]

Sorry, but that shows you know nothing about him. He has been trying to become a number one for the last couple of years, but because of his contract Liverpool have been unwilling to let him leave. Now that the contract situation is turning more in his favour and he will most likely be going in the summer, if not January, to be a number one.

His performances have been mostly excellent. His errors have been very few and all keepers will make a mistake or two. And he is without doubt better than the majority of EPL GKs, including Vicario.

Re para 1 - that's just ignorant. I'm aware of his contract situation. I'm aware of his reputation.
Footballers don't stay somewhere they aren't content to - that hasn't happened for about 20 years.

But the highlighted bit is important here.
Without doubt? What removes the doubt? 23 EPL games? Vicario has been incredible for 23 EPL games. So where is the evidence is without doubt better than the majority of EPL GKs?

 

[tommysvr]

Just my thoughts on this, but Ange always talks about the long term right? So to so many it seems oh so obvious that Ange has to adapt especially because of our horrendous injuries - do you not think Ange would realise this? He continues to do what he does because IMO he has been given assurances this is very much a long term plan and he believes long term sticking to his desired setup will benefit the team.

Exactly right.

We don't change for other teams. We play our way. People see it as stubbornness and take the tinkle (the same people were probably singing Angels when we beat Emirates Marketing Project). I see it as a crucial part of building a culture. There might a time where results do get too rough and the need for change is there...but for now he's doing the job he was brought into do. We needed a massive reset across the entire footballing setup. It's not going to be finished in 18 months.

 

[Finney Is Back]

State of those teams though. You can get away with it with Southampton, Qarabag, an out of form west ham and Man U (City was crazy but then as we saw they were in a rut throughout and still struggling).

Not one result against a team in decent form or style. PL Table top 10 as follows:

Liverpool
Arsenal
Forest
Chelsea
Saudi Sportswashing Machine
City
Bournemouth
Fulham
Villa
Brighton

Our corresponding results against each of those teams?

Loss.
Loss.
Loss.
Loss.
Loss.
Win.
Loss.
Draw.
Win.
Loss.

That is shocking.

Though if we look at the performance against those teams (I've bolded the teams where we played with a very injury/suspension affected team).....

Liverpool - us decimated by injuries and beaten by the best team in the league by far. Unfortunately we're not competing with Liverpool.
Arsenal - we probably shaded the game but got beaten by a very pragmatic team who have invested heavily in top players and are 3 years further developed under their manager than ours are. Like Liverpool, Arsenal are not a team that our owners are really trying to compete with.
Forest - we didn't deserve to lose the game and perhaps even deserved to win it despite being decimated by injures and playing a team in great form.
Chelsea - were winning until our starting team had to change significantly due to the injuries. As with Liverpool and Arsenal, unfortunately they are a team that our owners are not really trying to compete with.
Saudi Sportswashing Machine - we were by far the better team in the game. Really unlucky to lose. Those results happen every now and again where you don't get what you deserve.
City - Deservably beat them comfortably
Bournemouth - Worst performance of the season IMO. Though, again, us having a really fatigued team decimated by injuries.
Fulham - We got lucky taking a point. Though again, had to play with a fatigued team decimated by injuries.
Villa - Deservedly beat them comfortably.
Brighton - 2-0 up and then dropped off our intensity, that allowed Brighton back into the game. We did the very thing that some people seem to want us to do when winning a game and lost it as a result. I think that shows why the manager wants us to continue to play with intensity until the real latter stages of games.

 

[tommysvr]

Also against Brighton we didn't concede the 1st and 2nd goals due to us overcommitting to attack. We conceded those two goals because we had taken our foot off the gas and were allowing Brighton more possession. I think if we had carried on playing with the same intensity we would've won that game.

Interestingly I saw the Glasgow Rangers coach talking after they had beaten Celtic the other day. He said that at 2-0 and even 3-0 up he told the players how important it was for them to carry on pressing all over the pitch instead of dropping off as doing so would allow Celtic back into the game and them getting a goal back gives the game a whole new perspective.

Yes, totally agree. I think that was a mental thing too. We still tried to play, but the players didn't have the same conviction -- imo, because they started believing their hype way too early (that would have been our 6th win in a row had we finished the job)

 

[Finney Is Back]

all 2 of the wins against top 10?

How can teams like Bournemouth and Forest be higher than us? "oh but the injuries" except a lot of the losses i pointed out happened when we didn't have injury issues.

But yes you're right i digressed from my point about shutting up shop. My thoughts on that still stand. It's why people like Carragher and Neville have also said the same thing. If you have injuries in key places, you need to adapt. You cant just continue to expect the same outcome with B list parts.

Ange will be the reason Ange gets sacked, despite people claiming it's an injury issue. Look through 2024 in it's entirety, including second half of last season. Remember when we beat Villa last season?

We were then 2points behind Villa with a game in hand.

Lost 3 of our last 5 games to end the season. It seems like with Ange, folks are desperate to ignore failings because he's not Conte and Jose, so can ignore everything on that basis.

How can Forest and Bournemouth be higher than us in the table? Because they're not playing a bunch of extra games midweek, every week so have far less injured and fatigued players.

Ah Carragher and Neville, those two guys who know everything about football. One has never managed and the other had one go at it, did terribly and was sacked.

As for losing 3 or our last 5 games. We lost to Chelsea away, Liverpool away and Emirates Marketing Project at home (a game that it seemed our manager was in a minority at Spurs in terms of wanting to win it).

We finished 5th in the league, which was probably a place higher than where we should've been.

 

[monkeybarry]

Martinez anyone ?

Absolutely. Good point.

But there was a risk, not a guarantee.
He got his run at Arsenal and looked good. Arsenal (a club that saw him everyday for ten years chose not to make him no.1).
Villa took a risk. I don't think think anyone thought he'd suddenly become one of the best in the world. Fair play to him - it's very impressive.
He also hasn't been tested across a season - it could have been very different.

The narrative by certain posters is that Kelleher is a shoe in superstar.
I would say he just as likely to be Martinez as he is Henderson. Henderson is a good GK - but not an upgrade on Vic. He may also become Butland.

 

[glasgowspur]

completely agree, but therein lies the issue with folks crying about injuries. So called lesser managers and lesser teams can manage to deliver.

And my main gripe is people seem to absolve Ange of any responsibility for things. as i said before:

Can one of the Ange backers tell me why it will all be ok, where is the evidence it will all click and fall into place when we have players back when this didn't happen tail end of last year? I keep seeing "it's down to injuries" but where is the evidence of this, given we have lost games with near full strength teams out such as Ipswich at home? we had VDV missing and that was it, no one else. surely then we should win right? Brighton away? Leicester draw first game of the season? Giving Palace their first win?

Anyone who dare challenges Ange and his methods seems to be ostracised. Maybe i'm wrong and it will all come good. but there seems to be no self-reflection that Ange may not be the right guy.

I honestly can't, just like I can't honestly say that forest won't be back to at best mid table mediocrity next season.
That's this league, a league that other than city winning the league and the promoted teams being relegated again everything is up for grabs.