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Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

Re: AVB Sacked page 224

Pirate55 said:
That is a complete mis-representation of my position and is so puerile and facile, it really is beneath you.

Let me put it this way, at home, which teams would you say we have completely dominated and beaten comfortably by a margin of more than one goal. I can think of one. Norwich. Yippie. Any others?
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Why do away games not count?

It's not really a misrepresentation. You give Sunderland a 7 on the turgid scale and it would have been completely fair had we won that by 4 goals. You give Palace on the opening day a rating that suggests it should be included in the turgid examples, but 3-0 would have been a fair result there. There's some excuse that goes along with it to ensure it doesn't count, it wasn't really good football, we didn't deserve the win that much, but to anyone not looking to desperately make out that AVB was a merchant for rubbish football we actually played quite well.

At home we didn't always play that well, I'm not denying it. But I don't really see why away games don't count, I don't see why it doesn't show that perhaps, given the time, given foreign players settling in, we could learn how to control a game at home when the onus is totally on us and the space to manoeuvre is reduced. If AVB wanted boring football, we'd be playing it at home and we'd be playing it away. We wouldn't be playing good football against Norwich. But also away at Cardiff. But also at home to Saudi Sportswashing Machine. But also away to Everton. But also at home to Man United. If he wanted bad football it would be bad football irrespective of whether we were home or away.
 
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Re: AVB Sacked page 224

BrainOfLevy said:
Why do away games not count?

It's not really a misrepresentation. You give Sunderland a 7 on the turgid scale and it would have been completely fair had we won that by 4 goals. You give Palace on the opening day a rating that suggests it should be included in the turgid examples, but 3-0 would have been a fair result there. There's some excuse that goes along with it to ensure it doesn't count, it wasn't really good football, we didn't deserve the win that much, but to anyone not looking to desperately make out that AVB was a merchant for rubbish football we actually played quite well.

At home we didn't always play that well, I'm not denying it. But I don't really see why away games don't count, I don't see why it doesn't show that perhaps, given the time, given foreign players settling in, we could learn how to control a game at home when the onus is totally on us and the space to manoeuvre is reduced. If AVB wanted boring football, we'd be playing it at home and we'd be playing it away. We wouldn't be playing good football against Norwich. But also away at Cardiff. But also at home to Saudi Sportswashing Machine. But also away to Everton. But also at home to Man United. If he wanted bad football it would be bad football irrespective of whether we were home or away.
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As I tried to explain to you, AVB found a way to win away from home by counterattacking teams that were attacking us . Arsenal recognised this and didn't fall for our game plan and by DEFENDING at home showed us up to be toothless. Everton did this to us in the second half too.

At home, teams came just to defend. They saw what happened when Norwich came to us and left it too open. We won easily. Big Sam, that technical tactical genius, realised if the team didn't come out against us we were ****ed. United and Chelsea got this in the second half and stifled us. Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Hull ( who should have beaten us by the way) followed the same game plan and our slow starting style meant we all to often left ourselves too much to do in the second half.

It's no good you saying we should have scored three here and four there. The facts are we only scored 10 goals from open play in 16 PL games. We rarely got more than or two in the box and created **** all chances inside the penalty area as a result. The net result at home was slow tempo, turgid football. There didn't look to me like this was going to change anytime soon.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

Pirate55 said:
As I tried to explain to you, AVB found a way to win away from home by counterattacking teams that were attacking us . Arsenal recognised this and didn't fall for our game plan and by DEFENDING at home showed us up to be toothless. Everton did this to us in the second half too.

At home, teams came just to defend. They saw what happened when Norwich came to us and left it too open. We won easily. Big Sam, that technical tactical genius, realised if the team didn't come out against us we were ****ed. United and Chelsea got this in the second half and stifled us. Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Hull ( who should have beaten us by the way) followed the same game plan and our slow starting style meant we all to often left ourselves too much to do in the second half.

It's no good you saying we should have scored three here and four there. The facts are we only scored 10 goals from open play in 16 PL games. We rarely got more than or two in the box and created **** all chances inside the penalty area as a result. The net result at home was slow tempo, turgid football. There didn't look to me like this was going to change anytime soon.
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We didn't play a counter attacking game away from home and a forward thinking one at home as routine. At Villa for example, for the entire first half our defensive line was pushed up onto the half way line. At Cardiff we pummelled them the entire game. At Saudi Sportswashing Machine, they got ahead, then were forced back, then we created a ridiculous amount of chances to not score from any of them. We didn't counter attack at Sunderland, we didn't counter attack at Everton. We played well against teams ranging from Norwich and Swansea to Man United at home.

You've crafted your explanation of our tactics so it justifies the argument that the football on the whole was turgid. The only way you can explain why we worked well away from home and not so much at home is if you say it was purely because we counter attacked away - but we didn't. It wasn't the primary play.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

ArnieArdiles said:
lol..
It were the same for AVB and were on the table when Levy called AVB into the meetings, but apparently AVB didn't have the stomach for it.
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I highly doubt Ashley bothers to have those meetings. Pardew's job is not in question.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

BrainOfLevy said:
We didn't play a counter attacking game away from home and a forward thinking one at home as routine. At Villa for example, for the entire first half our defensive line was pushed up onto the half way line. At Cardiff we pummelled them the entire game. At Saudi Sportswashing Machine, they got ahead, then were forced back, then we created a ridiculous amount of chances to not score from any of them. We didn't counter attack at Sunderland, we didn't counter attack at Everton. We played well against teams ranging from Norwich and Swansea to Man United at home.

You've crafted your explanation of our tactics so it justifies the argument that the football on the whole was turgid. The only way you can explain why we worked well away from home and not so much at home is if you say it was purely because we counter attacked away - but we didn't. It wasn't the primary play.
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And you are using your supposed explanation to say we really don't counter attack. Yet you provide no explanation as to the "system" we are using. To use your own examples, one minute we are pushing up, the next are forcing teams back, sometimes we play a high line and sometimes not, sometimes we pummel teams, sometimes we are patient and play with a " low intensity" , sometimes we play well in parts of games, sometimes we create loads of chances other times, not. You really are all over the place with your theories. No wonder the players were confused!

I gave you the chance to put your views on our supposed system. You couldn't explain it succinctly. If he really had this system, don't you think it would have become more apparent by now after 18 months? If ther was a system, why WASNT the same system played at all levels throughout the club to get all players, including our youth, familiar with it. Apparently, each coach played their own way and AVB hardly ever went to watch youth and U21 games.

You can't even identify for us AVB s best starting XI and the formation that this supposed system is working.

If the Spurs faithful really thought we played well but were unlucky in home games, why do you think there was such a hostile reaction from them? as NWND explained at length in his excellent piece, the way we were playing was not only turgid in the extreme, but numbed him into a state of total apathy as the whole enjoyment of watching Spurs had been sucked out by the way we were playing.

The crowd was getting nothing, absolutely nothing, to cheer on the pitch. AVB complained about it but didnt seem to want to take on board that it is a two way street. The crod started off hopeful, bouyant and full of singing and support. By half time we had often been bored witless. In the real world, friends of mine, who were season ticket holders of long standing, and who had been die hard fans who followed the team home and away, were now giving their tickets away on a regular basis as for them going to Spurs was becoming a chore and no longer enjoyable. How come all of us are wrong with what we are witnessing and you are right? It was turgid.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

Pirate55 said:
And you are using your supposed explanation to say we really don't counter attack. Yet you provide no explanation as to the "system" we are using. To use your own examples, one minute we are pushing up, the next are forcing teams back, sometimes we play a high line and sometimes not, sometimes we pummel teams, sometimes we are patient and play with a " low intensity" , sometimes we play well in parts of games, sometimes we create loads of chances other times, not. You really are all over the place with your theories. No wonder the players were confused!

I gave you the chance to put your views on our supposed system. You couldn't explain it succinctly. If he really had this system, don't you think it would have become more apparent by now after 18 months? If ther was a system, why WASNT the same system played at all levels throughout the club to get all players, including our youth, familiar with it. Apparently, each coach played their own way and AVB hardly ever went to watch youth and U21 games.

You can't even identify for us AVB s best starting XI and the formation that this supposed system is working.

If the Spurs faithful really thought we played well but were unlucky in home games, why do you think there was such a hostile reaction from them? as NWND explained at length in his excellent piece, the way we were playing was not only turgid in the extreme, but numbed him into a state of total apathy as the whole enjoyment of watching Spurs had been sucked out by the way we were playing.

The crowd was getting nothing, absolutely nothing, to cheer on the pitch. AVB complained about it but didnt seem to want to take on board that it is a two way street. The crod started off hopeful, bouyant and full of singing and support. By half time we had often been bored witless. In the real world, friends of mine, who were season ticket holders of long standing, and who had been die hard fans who followed the team home and away, were now giving their tickets away on a regular basis as for them going to Spurs was becoming a chore and no longer enjoyable. How come all of us are wrong with what we are witnessing and you are right? It was turgid.
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I have explained the system as I saw it before, it turned into something like a ten page thread which I started, I don't want to type it out again nor do I want to have to search for it, because I'm pretty sure you participated in the thread as well.

It's not too complicated though. Should players really be confused by a system that asks them to play at different tempos in the same match? Sometimes play at a slower tempo, sometimes get in the box and sometimes take every opportunity to counter attack? What is so complicated about that, really? Against Sunderland, to use just one example, if we were to watch the game back together I'd be able to point you to multiple times particularly in the first half where we had the opportunity to counter attack, but very obviously, purposely didn't. I am saying this to dispute your claim that the only reason our away form was better was because we played on the counter. It wasn't that simple. And it's not that confusing a system to play at different tempos in the same match, in fact it's exactly that sort of cleverness we need to in order to overachieve against financially stronger rivals. I hope Sherwood can be similarly innovative, because 'go out there and play' won't get us to where we want to be.

Why should I had to identify a best starting 11? I don't see what that has to do with anything at all? I named you 7 odd players that I thought were favourite picks, with the rest able to he made up depending on the situation. Man United this season and last wouldn't have had a clear best 11 ether.

And again, I'm nkt denying some home performances were my very exciting. I've given you Hull, I've given you West Ham and I've given you Liverpool. But you're using those to create the myth that all football was turgid from AVB, and again I would say if it was supposed to be boring football constantly, we'd never see examples of good football at all and I'd have nothing whatsoever to point to. If it was supposed to be bad football, we'd be playing it home or away and regardless of the type of opposition.

Swansea, Norwich, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Man United, Chelsea, were all not turgid akin to Hull for example, or like Wigan at home last season for example. We had spells in some of those games were we weren't playing well (Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Chelsea) but that's the team not playing well, which will happen under Sherwood, happened under Harry and will happen under any manager in the world. In those games, plus pretty much every away game bar Emirates Marketing Project, we've face a good account of ourselves and played football that wasn't turgid.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

Hotshot-Tottenham said:
Genuine question - where has this notion come from?

Not being snarky, it's just it's being repeated as fact a fair bit.
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It's all probably come from the Levy PR machine and now some of the anti AVB bods have lapped it up and are now throwing it about . The fact that AVB didn't get on his hand and knees and beg Levy not to sack him in the Liverpool post match interviews, must mean he were looking to be relieved of his position and get his pay off.

It could've been that AVB were summoned to the meeting by Levy and the P45 were on the table . The chairman demanded the team play a 4-4-2, with his signing Adebayor in the team or AVB is fired . Who the feck knows ?

I should've made it clearer in my post to Jordinho that I were laughing:) at how definite some people are about this meeting behind closed doors .


PS. I did say I'd end my time on this thread, round in circles etc . It's done .
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

Jordinho said:
I highly doubt Ashley bothers to have those meetings. Pardew's job is not in question.
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I were just painting another scenario to the private meeting of AVB and Levy but I forgot to add the smiley .
My apologies , to the idea that there were a new 7 year contract on the table for AVB to sign but he didn't have the stomach for it . :-# ;)
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

BrainOfLevy said:
I have explained the system as I saw it before, it turned into something like a ten page thread which I started, I don't want to type it out again nor do I want to have to search for it, because I'm pretty sure you participated in the thread as well.

It's not too complicated though. Should players really be confused by a system that asks them to play at different tempos in the same match? Sometimes play at a slower tempo, sometimes get in the box and sometimes take every opportunity to counter attack? What is so complicated about that, really? Against Sunderland, to use just one example, if we were to watch the game back together I'd be able to point you to multiple times particularly in the first half where we had the opportunity to counter attack, but very obviously, purposely didn't. I am saying this to dispute your claim that the only reason our away form was better was because we played on the counter. It wasn't that simple. And it's not that confusing a system to play at different tempos in the same match, in fact it's exactly that sort of cleverness we need to in order to overachieve against financially stronger rivals. I hope Sherwood can be similarly innovative, because 'go out there and play' won't get us to where we want to be.

Why should I had to identify a best starting 11? I don't see what that has to do with anything at all? I named you 7 odd players that I thought were favourite picks, with the rest able to he made up depending on the situation. Man United this season and last wouldn't have had a clear best 11 ether.

And again, I'm nkt denying some home performances were my very exciting. I've given you Hull, I've given you West Ham and I've given you Liverpool. But you're using those to create the myth that all football was turgid from AVB, and again I would say if it was supposed to be boring football constantly, we'd never see examples of good football at all and I'd have nothing whatsoever to point to. If it was supposed to be bad football, we'd be playing it home or away and regardless of the type of opposition.

Swansea, Norwich, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Man United, Chelsea, were all not turgid akin to Hull for example, or like Wigan at home last season for example. We had spells in some of those games were we weren't playing well (Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Chelsea) but that's the team not playing well, which will happen under Sherwood, happened under Harry and will happen under any manager in the world. In those games, plus pretty much every away game bar Emirates Marketing Project, we've face a good account of ourselves and played football that wasn't turgid.
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We are clearly never going to agree, but I am afraid it IS confusing to the players if we play at different tempos at different times during a match. For example, who calls it? AVB or the captain on the pitch? Is it pre- set Ie lets play slow between minutes 18 and 27, fast between 28 and 41 and slow again in the last four minutes of the half? What should we do if they score? Should we change it or keep it the same? What should we do if, miracle of miracles, We score! That WASNT in the script surely....... Far too many variables to go into a game with a pre determined script. Soccer games don't work like that.

And we all know what happens if the opposition score TWO? Who could ever have thought that would happen!

I can give you a clear example of players NOT being on the same page. In the first half against Liverpool with the score still at 0-0, Paulinho had the ball in acres of space in our own half. Lennon made a darting run down the line. If Paulie had played him in with a very simple pass, he would have been away and broken in behind the Liverpool defence. Possibly setting us up for the first goal. Instead, what does Paulie do, he slows it down, waits for the Liverpool defence to recover and then opts to play a sideways pass which retains possession but otherwise comes to nothing. We all know what happened next.....

For me, in a nutshell this encapsulates everything you need to know about AVB's tactics. We give up a good chance of breaking through in order to retain meaningless possession. Lennon made the sprint, Paulie chose not to play it to him.The first half in most games was like this. The only exceptions - Man U and Chelsea, because they came at as and allowed gaps in behind. They both sorted this out by halftime and made us look ordinary in the second half. So did Wenger and Martinez. Our game plan against the big boys was quickly seen through, adjustments made and we had no answer under AVB.

Results against our main competitors are horrific reading

Man C lost 0-6
Arsenal lost 0-1
Liverpool lost 0-5
Chelsea drew 1-1
Man U drew 2-2
Everton drew 0-0

PL 6 W 0 D3 L3 F 3 A 15

And you still wanted to give this guy time? Please. After 18 months of this ****e, it was long enough.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

I've seen Gutter Boy say it before, and it's absolutely true, but a huge amount of effort is put into analysing the opposition and deciding the best moments to attack in the match. By saying 'it IS confusing' you're basically saying that the only thing to do is go straight for goals, straight away, all of the time. But top level football isn't played like that. There are different strategies at play for different moments of matches.

We gave him 18 months, a year of which he delivered us record points. And during that year, our record against our competitors was pretty good - wins over United, City, Arsenal, Liverpool, and an away draw with Chelsea at a vital point in the season. We weren't as good this year - again most likely being down to 7 new foreigners. Just like Saudi Sportswashing Machine weren't very good in the first months of their influx of foreigners - I still don't understand why Saudi Sportswashing Machine isn't a perfectly reasonable comparison to draw.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

I think that if analysis like you allude to is ineed made, then it is absolute bollox. For example, we watched Team X for the last few games and they seem to go to sleep between minutes 50 and 65, so that is the time to hit them. If that is what they learn in coaching school then the badges are worthless.

Each game is different, most teams play every game differently. This sort of analysis is just fundamentally flawed IMO. If that is what we were using, then our performances actually demonstrate it to be rubbish.

Yes, I like to start at a high tempo. I think an early goal massively tips the game in your favour tactically and allows you to dominate games from a position of superiority. It is then in your hands when to slow the game down and when to attack depending on how the opposition is reacting.

In my view, it is much better to dictate terms when you are in front. That is why I banged on about the importance of corners to us ( another AVB failing). Go one nil or even better two nil up and there are then plenty of opportunities to rest with the ball and let the opponent chase the game. That is when you moderate intensity not from the off. It is incredibly difficult to raise the tempo once you start slowly. Anyone who has played football knows this. Footballers are not automatons.

I just heard thatTom has scored for Hull today. Apparently he had the most shots on target this season without scoring before today! It would be great if our two defensive DMs employed against some of the lower clubs would break behind Soldado, but no they were obviously playing to instructions. We just weren't adventurous enough and paid the penalty all too often.

Re Saudi Sportswashing Machine, I don't really follow them closely but I think the basis of their good run at the moment is based around Cabaye, Tiotte, Ben Arfa, Cisse and Remy. Remy is of course the only new signing among that lot. Lets see how they do for the rest of the season before drawing too many early conclusions. BTW, Remy seemed to settle in both at QPR last season and with Saudi Sportswashing Machine this season, WITHOUT needing a 6 month settling in period in either case. Makes a mockery of your theory that all our new signings need at least 6 months to show their worth. AVB couldn't get much out if any of them - same as with Ade last season.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

BrainOfLevy said:
I've seen Gutter Boy say it before, and it's absolutely true, but a huge amount of effort is put into analysing the opposition and deciding the best moments to attack in the match. By saying 'it IS confusing' you're basically saying that the only thing to do is go straight for goals, straight away, all of the time. But top level football isn't played like that. There are different strategies at play for different moments of matches.

We gave him 18 months, a year of which he delivered us record points. And during that year, our record against our competitors was pretty good - wins over United, City, Arsenal, Liverpool, and an away draw with Chelsea at a vital point in the season. We weren't as good this year - again most likely being down to 7 new foreigners. Just like Saudi Sportswashing Machine weren't very good in the first months of their influx of foreigners - I still don't understand why Saudi Sportswashing Machine isn't a perfectly reasonable comparison to draw.
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Whatever his background as a scout led you to believe a lot of the time AVB ignored the opposition. No creative players against weak teams at whl. High line against fast attackers. Sherwood seems to do the same.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

Modric THFC said:
Whatever his background as a scout led you to believe a lot of the time AVB ignored the opposition. No creative players against weak teams at whl. High line against fast attackers. Sherwood seems to do the same.
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This. AVB just didn't demonstrate much tactical nous, given his supposed fantastic coaching credentials. Just the same old boring tactics time after time.

Too early to judge Sherwood though.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

Pirate55 said:
I think that if analysis like you allude to is ineed made, then it is absolute bollox. For example, we watched Team X for the last few games and they seem to go to sleep between minutes 50 and 65, so that is the time to hit them. If that is what they learn in coaching school then the badges are worthless.
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That's obviously not what coaching school is about. However, knowing that teams tend to have weak periods, which will mostly happen towards end of halves regardless of opposition, but also at other times, can be used to our advantage. The evidence of my eyes tells me that we often deliberately started games at a slower pace to avoid being sucked into a high tempo game with a lot of back and forth. If done properly it sets up nicely for the second half, especially if the opposition has had to chase the ball a lot. If we can get through a lot of our 'bread and butter' games against weaker teams without having to dig deep it also means we are fresher for the big games and less likely to burn out towards the end of a season. Obviously our squad may not be 100% suited to this, but that's another discussion.

Pirate55 said:
Each game is different, most teams play every game differently. This sort of analysis is just fundamentally flawed IMO. If that is what we were using, then our performances actually demonstrate it to be rubbish.
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One of the aims of such tactics would be to make games more similar in the pattern they take, one where we are in control. I highly doubt that the players were given complex instructions on how to play. It would make more sense for the coaching staff to signal from the bench when they want more/less intensity. An important aspect that we've been missing is the quarterback, the deep-lying midfielder, that fully understands exactly what the coach wants and can dictate play. Why we never got one or I can not comment on beyond what's already been done to death over Moutinho.

Pirate55 said:
Yes, I like to start at a high tempo. I think an early goal massively tips the game in your favour tactically and allows you to dominate games from a position of superiority. It is then in your hands when to slow the game down and when to attack depending on how the opposition is reacting.
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The failure to score early leaves you in much more precarious situation if you've started at full throttle.

Pirate55 said:
In my view, it is much better to dictate terms when you are in front. That is why I banged on about the importance of corners to us ( another AVB failing). Go one nil or even better two nil up and there are then plenty of opportunities to rest with the ball and let the opponent chase the game. That is when you moderate intensity not from the off. It is incredibly difficult to raise the tempo once you start slowly. Anyone who has played football knows this. Footballers are not automatons.
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Unless that's something we've put a lot of emphasis on in training. A lot of successful teams are very much based on players being automatons, working as part of bigger machinery. It's about knowing your role in the team.

Pirate55 said:
I just heard thatTom has scored for Hull today. Apparently he had the most shots on target this season without scoring before today! It would be great if our two defensive DMs employed against some of the lower clubs would break behind Soldado, but no they were obviously playing to instructions. We just weren't adventurous enough and paid the penalty all too often.
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Does Huddlestone play as a defensive defensive midfielder for Hull? Wasn't one of the main issues with AVB that we relied too much on shots from distance?

Pirate55 said:
Re Saudi Sportswashing Machine, I don't really follow them closely but I think the basis of their good run at the moment is based around Cabaye, Tiotte, Ben Arfa, Cisse and Remy. Remy is of course the only new signing among that lot. Lets see how they do for the rest of the season before drawing too many early conclusions. BTW, Remy seemed to settle in both at QPR last season and with Saudi Sportswashing Machine this season, WITHOUT needing a 6 month settling in period in either case. Makes a mockery of your theory that all our new signings need at least 6 months to show their worth. AVB couldn't get much out if any of them - same as with Ade last season.
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Pardew gets the full season before drawing any conclusions, despite having been in the job longer than AVB and serving up a lot of really turgid football along the way? It's not just the 7 new signings, who will all take a different amount of time to settle, but also having Kaboul and Sandro return from long term injury and Rose and Townsend coming back from loans. Chadli, Capoue, Eriksen, Rose and Lamela(?)have all been out with injuries this season, prolonging their settling in time. To me it looked like AVB put emphasis on getting results while we settled rather than change things too quickly, something he did successfully last season.
 
Re: AVB Sacked page 224

It really isn't as simple as 'high line = owned by fast attackers'. There's much more to it than that. Chelsea in the first half tried simply lugging the ball over the top in behind our high line and not once did it work.
 
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