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American politics

monkeybarry said:
Absolutely. And has done for ages.
2016 saw the influence of Cambridge Analytica (which is basically now Emerdata) in influencing the outcomes of Brexit and The US Election.
There is still an section of "Eton boys" that consider themselves as the ruling class of the UK and parliament as a plaything/inconvenience/smokescreen.

2016 was a trial run for the puppet that is Trump. And they found out what they could do and what they still needed to work on.
The UK has always had a horrible fascist element, albeit small. But we now live in a time to trends, so if they can make it trendy they might just get somewhere.

Thankfully I think the UK as a whole is strong enough morally to quash anything too overt.
If they manage to put an acceptable political face on it however, it might be different. There should be enough decent Tories left to stop that though.
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Oxymoron?
have there ever been a decent Tory (or at least since the 70s)?

Bit of a limp straw to grasp at whatever.
 
Lost Mango said:
Oxymoron?
have there ever been a decent Tory (or at least since the 70s)?

Bit of a limp straw to grasp at whatever.
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There are plenty of Tories that care about democracy and are not right wing nutjobs.
I may not agree with their politics, but they are democratic:

Teresa May
Ken Clarke
Rory Stuart
Dominic Grieve
Ian Duncan Smith
Jeremy Hunt
Tugendhat
Whittingdale
Sunak

I know some of them are no longer MPs or Party members, but they are still conservatives. I think there is enough to stop the Tories becoming a Reform propaganda machine or proxy for a fascist underclass.
But it'll come from the party, because the MPs look terrible
 
monkeybarry said:
Yup.
He's got the pace spot on - it's administrative blitzkrieg.

This is what the "good guy with a gun" is supposed to remedy isn't it?
Although I guess the argument is at what point does democracy turn into tyranny. Most of what he's doing is mandated.
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Musk and his DOGE interns have full access to the treasury federal payment system. It is illegal obviously but law enforcement is awol. So they are in there turning off funding to various departments and programs under the guise of being inefficient! A rather successful coup is underway.

I have read about the oligarch's Network State idea but thought it was a bit far-fetched. Now I'm not so sure. The aim is to crash the whole system and replace the dollar with bitcoin as the reserve currency.
 
monkeybarry said:
Absolutely. And has done for ages.
2016 saw the influence of Cambridge Analytica (which is basically now Emerdata) in influencing the outcomes of Brexit and The US Election.
There is still an section of "Eton boys" that consider themselves as the ruling class of the UK and parliament as a plaything/inconvenience/smokescreen.

2016 was a trial run for the puppet that is Trump. And they found out what they could do and what they still needed to work on.
The UK has always had a horrible fascist element, albeit small. But we now live in a time to trends, so if they can make it trendy they might just get somewhere.

Thankfully I think the UK as a whole is strong enough morally to quash anything too overt.
If they manage to put an acceptable political face on it however, it might be different. There should be enough decent Tories left to stop that though.
Click to expand...
Farage and Reform are the way in.
 
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ricky2tricky4city said:
He's had 4 years to think about it...and a previous trial run to see things from the inside and note what's 'required'.

But is there a level of sleepwalking, accommodating, fear going on here from those that deep down know there's a lot of 'wrong' going on here?
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I don't think mango mussolini has too many thought out plans. There seems to be 3 distinct factions at work behind him. For now their unholy alliance is holding, just, but there are cracks showing as they don't want the same thing. The Bannon Musk fued is one such crack.
 
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Rorschach said:
Forage and Reform are the way in.
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They are. But to do that they'll have to convince people Reform are Tories.
It would be literally unprecedented (as apposed to UnPresidented, which is where the US finds itself) for a party like reform to take power in UK; it's one of the perverse benefits (and indeed designs) of first past the post - it's keeps extreme factions within the party structure rather than direct governance.
 
monkeybarry said:
They are. But to do that they'll have to convince people Reform are Tories.
It would be literally unprecedented (as apposed to UnPresidented, which is where the US finds itself) for a party like reform to take power in UK; it's one of the perverse benefits (and indeed designs) of first past the post - it's keeps extreme factions within the party structure rather than direct governance.
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We live in unprecedented times.

I think labour's feckless move right and abandonment of so many pre-election promises opens the door for them. First past the post does not offer the protections people ascribe to it. If they get in the UK is going down the same route as the US.
 
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Wow, the moves from Canada are sending a message, the whole thing is going berserk now, seems like a real world reaction to having Musk so close to government
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I smell a rat with Trump and us (the UK). His tone about us (and Starmer) is insincere nicety...he wants something from us, wants to use us.
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We pay our way in terms of national security and the US doesn't have a (goods) trade deficit to us.

It's the perfect opportunity to rake it in being outside of Europe, but Starmer keeps dropping the ball and then spazzing it off his shin into our own net.
 
I think it's very, very important right now to see what these first 6 months end up actually bringing in the US. Further to that, I think it's really important to get a proper gauge on exactly what checks and balances are left. There are some. And to see how many of them can be removed versus impossible to remove. Already I have seen friends freaking out about their 401ks, people saying the stock market will crash, and people saying Trump will follow through with his tariff trade wars. In that time we've seen 401ks have a light to nothing wobble, and Trump backing down without 24 hours of each tariff threat. Which is no surprise. He simply wants to be able to say he scared people for America. I mean yes, he could easily flip back. But he has always been someone who wants praise and thanks for 'delivering a deal'...Musk is a total wild-card. But again, I wonder what checks and balances there really are?...
 
Rorschach said:
More like Musk changed his mind.

Softening up to Farage I see. Would you accept him as Tory leader?
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I'm softening but not that much yet.

Musk changed his mind because Farage refused to join him in referring to that Yaxley-Lennon clam as a political prisoner and refused to allow him into the party/process.

Farage gained a huge amount of respect from me based on that. Until that point, I'd judged Farage on the words of his supporters and I don't think that's fair. If one were to judge Starmer by the opinions of many Labour supporters he wouldn't come out well either.

But this has led me to believe it might be possible that Farage genuinely doesn't want racists in his party, rather than just paying lip service to it. Now that they're the most popular party in the UK, his actions will tell us a lot.
 
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thfcsteff said:
I think it's very, very important right now to see what these first 6 months end up actually bringing in the US.
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6 months is a very long time. Feels like something awful happens every day. You talk of checks and balances but it feels like Trump and Musk are just flailing around smashing things up, banning things, suspending people, arresting people, pardoning people, it is hard to imagine a crazier couple of weeks?
 
Bullet said:
6 months is a very long time. Feels like something awful happens every day. You talk of checks and balances but it feels like Trump and Musk are just flailing around smashing things up, banning things, suspending people, arresting people, pardoning people, it is hard to imagine a crazier couple of weeks?
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Trust me, I hear you. I am trying to find a balance between following every single firework that gets let off versus waiting for the haze to settle from all of them and see how many limbs and eyes we've all got left...wow, that metaphor went off a bit!!!!
 
It seems Trump's solution is for the Palestinians to move somewhere else and the US can take over.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1886928041194016796



The president repeatedly doubled down on his suggestion that nearly 2 million Palestinians should be relocated from battle-leveled Gaza to new homes elsewhere so that the US could send troops to the Strip, take ownership and build the “Riviera of the Middle East.”

“You build really good quality housing, like a beautiful town, like some place where they can live and not die, because Gaza is a guarantee that they’re going to end up dying,” Trump told reporters.
 
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