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American politics
- Thread starter Danishfurniturelover
- Start date
Mosquito_Coasting
Jonathan Woodgate
Epstein also has strong links to Bill Clinton. That's why his name never came up despite all the mud-throwing in that election race. It will get buried as usual.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Epstein probably has dirt on almost everyone. If he sings he will bring down a whole host of the white elite.
Mosquito_Coasting
Jonathan Woodgate
I wish that were true, he won't sing though, did you see the joke sentence he got last time? He just went to jail during the day time if I remember correctly, could sleep at home. Same thing will happen again. They need to drain that fudging swamp. Prince Andrew linked to Epstein too. They're all in it up to their gills.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
I don't think it will go the same way this time. Last time was effectively a coverup and I can't imagine we'll see a repeat of it. At least that is the legal noise I'm reading. If he is looking at a long time in prison we'll see how quiet he keeps.
Mosquito_Coasting
Jonathan Woodgate
Trump is bullet proof at this point, so is Clinton and all of them. American structure has too much to lose. It will all be swept away as usual. Don’t think anything will come of this, just like Mueller.
Mosquito_Coasting
Jonathan Woodgate
It’s too embarrassing for America to allow it to be known they elected someone who colluded with Russia, had sex with underage girls, got tinkled on by a Russian pro. It undermines the way they like to see themselves and the way they want to be seen too gravely. Same for any country really.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Well we can hope. If Epstein gets done again he's looking at up to 45 years and if that happens he will talk. A man with as little morals as he has will have no compunction in giving up whomever he needs to. They should be going after Acosta too for giving a free pass last time.
Mosquito_Coasting
Jonathan Woodgate
Let’s hope so, mate!
90291Spur
Paul Walsh
Trump will pardon him. Nailed on.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
Nah, he’ll throw him into jail, on the Mexican border
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Technically yes, it is a federal crime and Trump could pardon Epstein. But would he? Trump's whole outlook is transactional and a pardon would only make sense to him if he was benefitting from it somehow.
So there are two scenarios, one where Trump is involved and one where he is an innocent bystander. He's almost certainly not but lets flesh that one out. Say Epstein is charged and is going down for say 30 years for child sex trafficking. Pardoning a paedophile has significant optics problems (and is another misuse of the pardon power) coming up to his reelection campaign, and if Trump is not directly implicated there is little upside for him. Yeah, he's an old sex buddy but I doubt that will make one iota of difference to Trump when push comes to shove. Pardoning Epstein would likely hurt his election campaign among the swing voters.
Scenario 2 is where Trump is involved. The original deal for Epstein included wording that granted immunity to “any potential co-conspirators’’. What if he is one of them? It is not a stretch to imagine that is the reason why Acosta turned the rules upside down on the original case and was later rewarded with a cabinet position by Trump. If Trump is one of the paedos (and there is certainly evidence pointing that way) I'm not sure pardoning Epstein will be forefront in his mind.
The fat fudging fly in the ointment is Barr who has jurisdiction over this case now that it is in federal court. Epstein also worked for his father, which in normal times would mean a recusal from overseeing the case. These are not normal times however and Barr has already shown he can not be trusted.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
I was reading this earlier about the old case. Fairly horrific stuff and a longish read. If you are in a good mood this will sort that out....https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html
90291Spur
Paul Walsh
I wish your scenario 1 made a jot of difference. Pardoning Epstein means he doesn’t have to testify about TRump’s involvement. He can take whatever fall he will get and then be free to fcuk kids again. Trump’s ‘base’ will not give a flying fcuk if he pardons a paedophile. He has already publicly endorsed one running for senate - Roy Moore. He has already not done a thing about immigrant and asylum seeing kids being warehoused in concentration camps under conditions that would cause a parent to have their child taken from them due to child endangerment.
And in the USA today there are no swing voters. You either support Trump and what he stands for or you don’t. I don’ think there are a significant number of people who think ‘Jeez, fcuking kids is going a bit too far from the racism/abortion bans/tax cuts for the wealthy/refusing to honour congressional subpoenas/racking up $100,000,000 for gold trips in 2 1/2 years etc.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
In scenario 1 as I have described it, Trump is not involved so there will be no testimony about him anyway. I can't see an upside for Trump pardoning Epstein when he is already in the clear.
In scenario 2 where he is implicated as a co-conspirator, the sordid details will play out in the trial. He cannot pre-pardon Epstein before a trial as there needs to be a conviction before a pardon, so the only way a pardon for Epstein helps Trump is that (1) he is indeed a co-conspirator and (2) Epstein is thinking of flipping but the pardon stops that and (3) most importantly that there is no other evidence that will mean Trump is on the hook anyway.
Yes the base will vote Trump no matter what. But there are still swing voters. Yes, you would think that any sane person would have already seen Trump for who he is but the opinion polls still swing up and down by more than margins of error. 2020 is still in play IMO.
90291Spur
Paul Walsh
Trump pardons people he likes and who are loyal (and rich). There was no real need to pardon Apraio or Dinesh D-Souza…
I hope this puts a dent in Trump, but I still stand behind the notion that swing voting is dead - whatever the polls say (and remember how wrong polls have been of late). This country is sooo polarized, and Trump has delivered so much of the agenda of the far-far-right (muslim ban, attempts at abortion ban, lifetime appointment of radical right judges, huge tax cuts for the wealthy, elimination of regulations on business…).. BUT, if you are aware of what issues might still be ‘swing’ I’d be fascinated to have my opinion changed.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
That is a fair point but I think those pardons were trial balloons, so to speak. Very controversial of course but designed mostly to judge reaction and maybe break the ice for future pardons. Pardoning a monster like Epstein is cranking it up more than a few notches. Would Trump do if he benefitted from it? Absolutely, but the benefit is not clear at the moment IMO.
I'm not American but I have family there and amazingly they are not really that engaged with the daily brickshow. They may have a vaguely negative opinion of Trump but also could not articulate why. They also have only a vague idea who is running for the Democrats and no knowledge what their proposals are. Frankly, it seems incredible to me that they are not engaged but I imagine they are not alone. I guess the positive economic numbers and job figures still have a lot of sway over the fence sitters. The headlines hide a multitude of issues but there is a still a percentage of people that are doing OK and are happy enough with their lot.
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90291Spur
Paul Walsh
I think Trump is so emboldened right now that he might do anything. Just three weeks ago there was a 22nd claim against him - a credible *struggle cuddle* claim - that just withered on the vine. And the Democrats, headed by Pelosi in the House, do nothing.
As for the economy, it’s not doing better than under Obama, but that doesn’t matter as Trump takes credit for it. And last election 100,000,000 eligible voters didn’t vote. Ugh, it’s awful here and Britain is about to get a taste of having a malignant, lying, racist, narcissist in charge. Voted in by 160,000-ish Conservative party members.
Thank goodness we have football and Spurs!
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There's your swing voters. The Republican base show up no matter what. The Democrats need a candidate that can get enough votes from the rest to win.