30 dead in France terror attacks in Nice + Talk Turkey here!

[Mr_B]

I understand how marketing works and it's still a choice.

I, for example, haven't watched a tv advert in years. Other than those inserted into podcasts I haven't listened to one either.

It's optional. It always has been and always will be

I do the same, the moment an ad comes on, i leave the room and get something, do a quick errand, go online and mute the tv etc, I also have "reserve" channels I go to. I can't stand TV ads, you don't tune into watch them so
why would you waste around 15/20 minutes an hour doing that ?

 

[scaramanga]

I do the same, the moment an ad comes on, i leave the room and get something, do a quick errand, go online and mute the tv etc, I also have "reserve" channels I go to. I can't stand TV ads, you don't tune into watch them so
why would you waste around 15/20 minutes an hour doing that ?

Getting on here and talking to all of you lot is a passable distraction during ad breaks.

Mostly I don't watch things live unless it's sport.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Your contribution to this thread is urgently needed @LutonSpurs

I haven't been on much, will have a good read and give my thoughts soon. Genuinely flattered by your value of my opinion Milo. Means a lot.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Erdogan is as much an Islamist as Theresa May is a Christianist. The term means what exactly? He has a democratic mandate, huge support, a secular constitution and laws are passed via this means. The army is secular generally but more than anything power hungry.

Anyway the coup being orchestrated by Erdogan is a conspiracy theory akin to Bush did 911. You really can't come on here with that BS unless you have real evidence. It's nonsense that truthers believe.

And fudge me, the clam in Nice, he was a Muslim by name but again is there any evidence that he was ideologically driven or was he just a loner prick like the guy who killed Jo Cox?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Erdogan is as much an Islamist as Theresa May is a Christianist. The term means what exactly? He has a democratic mandate, huge support, a secular constitution and laws are passed via this means. The army is secular generally but more than anything power hungry.

Anyway the coup being orchestrated by Erdogan is a conspiracy theory akin to Bush did 911. You really can't come on here with that BS unless you have real evidence. It's nonsense that truthers believe.

And fudge me, the clam in Nice, he was a Muslim by name but again is there any evidence that he was ideologically driven or was he just a loner prick like the guy who killed Jo Cox?

Yeah, i'm sure i heard some short BBC news 24 clip have his dad in Tunisia show a medical record and state that his son was getting regular medical treatment for his mental illness problems. Apparently he had gone downhill recently. Not sure what the papers/media have been saying since but it seemed a tragic case of somebody with mental health problems go out and have a mega acute manic episode and in doing so aim to kill and maim randomly - rather than anything ideologically inspired.
I thought it was a case similar to if a madman had finished watching Terminator 2 and decided to act like Arnie and go and fire a load of bullets into a random crowd.
Sad and tragic all round. It seemed to me NOT related to ISIS/Al-Quaida etc

 

[Baleforce]

Erdogan is as much an Islamist as Theresa May is a Christianist. The term means what exactly? He has a democratic mandate, huge support, a secular constitution and laws are passed via this means. The army is secular generally but more than anything power hungry.

Anyway the coup being orchestrated by Erdogan is a conspiracy theory akin to Bush did 911. You really can't come on here with that BS unless you have real evidence. It's nonsense that truthers believe.

And fudge me, the clam in Nice, he was a Muslim by name but again is there any evidence that he was ideologically driven or was he just a loner prick like the guy who killed Jo Cox?

I do laugh when people repeat these conspiracy theories, you see the level of idiocy in public office we have to deal with, it's ridiculous to suggest that these idiots could orchestrate something like that

never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence

 

[thfcsteff]

Erdogan is as much an Islamist as Theresa May is a Christianist. The term means what exactly? He has a democratic mandate, huge support, a secular constitution and laws are passed via this means. The army is secular generally but more than anything power hungry.

Anyway the coup being orchestrated by Erdogan is a conspiracy theory akin to Bush did 911. You really can't come on here with that BS unless you have real evidence. It's nonsense that truthers believe.

And fudge me, the clam in Nice, he was a Muslim by name but again is there any evidence that he was ideologically driven or was he just a loner prick like the guy who killed Jo Cox?

I will bite.
First of all (and an important distinction) you don't have to believe Bush conspired to 'create' 9/11, indeed I agree that is tin-hat stuff. What most decidedly isn't is the way in which the administration went about the next phase; to deny they took gross advantage of the situation to further agendas and policy-making in the region that they wished to implement is equal nonsense IMO. We need not get into the details here, needless to say I suspect you and I might agree on this subtle yet very pronounced difference in what happened there.

Erdogan...similar situation, except I believe that like Thatcher in '81 re: Falklands, he knew a potential coup was around the corner, he knew had the resources to squash it and he knew he would thus be able to quickly create the mandate to clean house of every single opposing faction within the country/squash them out of existence, and have full reign of matters. Real evidence? Hard to conclude what is 'real' evidence, but tell me how 2700 judges are removed within a couple of days? What do 2700 judges have to do with the attempt? Could he have removed them to make sure that the only judges left are sympathetic to what he feels needs to be 'done' to the 50,000 - odd people targeted by Erdogan as in need of correction/punishment?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-idUSKCN0ZX07S

As for Nice (and Germany now) absolutely agree. ISIS have managed to float a message out there which appeals to the disturbed and unhinged who 'might' find refuge in it's twisted message. They will trawl and get more sadly. Very very hard to capture loan nutters who get 'turned' and have as much to do with the Muslim faith as Vic Reeves.

The tragedy is that for ALL the above, the only 'winners' are the extremists. If they can continue to drop balls of chaos left and right, to churn the waters and to get ignorant people to turn on all refugees and muslims then they will have caused the divide & conquer which gives them potentially many many more recruits. I think what is alarming in all the reporting, is that NO-ONE is mentioning how many tens of THOUSANDS of muslims have been MURDERED by Isis-realted groups worldwide. They attack the muslim community just as hard.

Interested in your response here mate, as Milo said, you're an erudite political conversationalist.

 

[thfcsteff]

I do laugh when people repeat these conspiracy theories, you see the level of idiocy in public office we have to deal with, it's ridiculous to suggest that these idiots could orchestrate something like that

never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence

There is absolutely nothing 'incompetent' about the speed, ferocity and coordination of the response. Ask yourself this - if it was 'incompetence' which 'allowed' this coup to happen, how did Erdogan and co suddenly develop the mad skills to coordinate their response so ruthlessly????

 

[Bullet]

Good posts Steffen.

I don't know a great deal about Turkey but I read a report saying Erdogan got rid of thousands of "secular judges" so does that mean he wants to get rid of non-religious judges and use Muslamic Infidel judges?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Yeah, i'm sure i heard some short BBC news 24 clip have his dad in Tunisia show a medical record and state that his son was getting regular medical treatment for his mental illness problems. Apparently he had gone downhill recently. Not sure what the papers/media have been saying since but it seemed a tragic case of somebody with mental health problems go out and have a mega acute manic episode and in doing so aim to kill and maim randomly - rather than anything ideologically inspired.
I thought it was a case similar to if a madman had finished watching Terminator 2 and decided to act like Arnie and go and fire a load of bullets into a random crowd.
Sad and tragic all round. It seemed to me NOT related to ISIS/Al-Quaida etc

I agree with the gist of your post but for the record in Terminator 2 arnie was a hero who defended the future leader of the resistance.

 

[scaramanga]

Good posts Steffen.

I don't know a great deal about Turkey but I read a report saying Erdogan got rid of thousands of "secular judges" so does that mean he wants to get rid of non-religious judges and use Muslamic Infidel judges?

Although Erdogan doesn't appear to be overtly religious himself, much of his power base comes from the religious in Turkey.

Secular judges/military are just inconvenient.

 

[LutonSpurs]

I will bite.
First of all (and an important distinction) you don't have to believe Bush conspired to 'create' 9/11, indeed I agree that is tin-hat stuff. What most decidedly isn't is the way in which the administration went about the next phase; to deny they took gross advantage of the situation to further agendas and policy-making in the region that they wished to implement is equal nonsense IMO. We need not get into the details here, needless to say I suspect you and I might agree on this subtle yet very pronounced difference in what happened there.

Erdogan...similar situation, except I believe that like Thatcher in '81 re: Falklands, he knew a potential coup was around the corner, he knew had the resources to squash it and he knew he would thus be able to quickly create the mandate to clean house of every single opposing faction within the country/squash them out of existence, and have full reign of matters. Real evidence? Hard to conclude what is 'real' evidence, but tell me how 2700 judges are removed within a couple of days? What do 2700 judges have to do with the attempt? Could he have removed them to make sure that the only judges left are sympathetic to what he feels needs to be 'done' to the 50,000 - odd people targeted by Erdogan as in need of correction/punishment?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-idUSKCN0ZX07S

As for Nice (and Germany now) absolutely agree. ISIS have managed to float a message out there which appeals to the disturbed and unhinged who 'might' find refuge in it's twisted message. They will trawl and get more sadly. Very very hard to capture loan nutters who get 'turned' and have as much to do with the Muslim faith as Vic Reeves.

The tragedy is that for ALL the above, the only 'winners' are the extremists. If they can continue to drop balls of chaos left and right, to churn the waters and to get ignorant people to turn on all refugees and muslims then they will have caused the divide & conquer which gives them potentially many many more recruits. I think what is alarming in all the reporting, is that NO-ONE is mentioning how many tens of THOUSANDS of muslims have been MURDERED by Isis-realted groups worldwide. They attack the muslim community just as hard.

Interested in your response here mate, as Milo said, you're an erudite political conversationalist.

I agree with all of this but I just find the claims that he engineered the whole coup as part of a power grab insulting.

With regards to his reaction. He just had military jets flying over and using ammunition on his capital, evidence now that they attempted to kill him, if he is ruthlessly removing his enemies then that's hardly a surprise even though it is not the right thing to do in a democracy.

My biggest problem is the left wing imperialists who struggle to criticise Putin, Iran and Assad while they murder 1000s in Syria, while Iran executes more people a year than Saudi, while Putin carries on being a knob, who have now made Erdogan a poster boy for being a tyrant. He is the only decent leader in the Middle East and you don't have to be very good to achieve that but he deserves credit, and his response to an attempted coup, attempt on his life and the murders of 100s of civilians by a coordinated coup is probably measured considering the region.

Also I would very much doubt if such a coup was ever going to go ahead without US approval, considering the US admin referred to it as an "uprising" until it was quelled it is clear they weren't exactly hoping it failed.

My thoughts.

 

[LutonSpurs]

And on Nice @thfcsteff I couldn't agree more.

ISIS and their types are what we refer to ideologically as the far right in Islam. They have leaders who are not sincere for the cause they preach, interested in power and bloodshed, followers who are generally dim, or socially inadequate, brainwashed at a young age.

But in reality how do you stop them is the question.

We fought Nazis but we didn't beat Naziism. It still exists in so many forms, ISIS can't be beaten as the idea now exists, what we do need is a society that doesn't forego civil liberties in response to ISIS and end up becoming oppressive themselves.

Personally I am grateful for the wealth, education and, mostly, amazing parents I have which has given me all the tools not to be a psycho prick. People who don't have those 3 things probably won't sit on my perch and look down at the world with my ideals, rather they will have something to be angry about and somebody could use that to draw them to extremism.

 

[Bullet]

People who don't have those 3 things probably won't sit on my perch and look down at the world.

Ooh, good phraseology.

 

[thfcsteff]

And on Nice @thfcsteff I couldn't agree more.

ISIS and their types are what we refer to ideologically as the far right in Islam. They have leaders who are not sincere for the cause they preach, interested in power and bloodshed, followers who are generally dim, or socially inadequate, brainwashed at a young age.

But in reality how do you stop them is the question.

We fought Nazis but we didn't beat Naziism. It still exists in so many forms, ISIS can't be beaten as the idea now exists, what we do need is a society that doesn't forego civil liberties in response to ISIS and end up becoming oppressive themselves.

Personally I am grateful for the wealth, education and, mostly, amazing parents I have which has given me all the tools not to be a psycho prick. People who don't have those 3 things probably won't sit on my perch and look down at the world with my ideals, rather they will have something to be angry about and somebody could use that to draw them to extremism.

Great post. The problems are immense and fear is making those problems greater.

 

[thfcsteff]

I agree with all of this but I just find the claims that he engineered the whole coup as part of a power grab insulting.

With regards to his reaction. He just had military jets flying over and using ammunition on his capital, evidence now that they attempted to kill him, if he is ruthlessly removing his enemies then that's hardly a surprise even though it is not the right thing to do in a democracy.

My biggest problem is the left wing imperialists who struggle to criticise Putin, Iran and Assad while they murder 1000s in Syria, while Iran executes more people a year than Saudi, while Putin carries on being a knob, who have now made Erdogan a poster boy for being a tyrant. He is the only decent leader in the Middle East and you don't have to be very good to achieve that but he deserves credit, and his response to an attempted coup, attempt on his life and the murders of 100s of civilians by a coordinated coup is probably measured considering the region.

Also I would very much doubt if such a coup was ever going to go ahead without US approval, considering the US admin referred to it as an "uprising" until it was quelled it is clear they weren't exactly hoping it failed.

My thoughts.

I would debate Turkey as solely a Middle Eastern country. It sits firmly as a gateway. Tyrant? Erdogan is doing a great job presenting himself that way. Waging war on education? Theocratic? Hmmm...as for Iran, well, to these eyes everyone criticizes them and they have long been the poster boys...I have to ask BTW, why are suggestions he is using the moment to clean house and purge a pre-planned list of people 'insulting'?

 

[glorygloryeze]

I agree with the gist of your post but for the record in Terminator 2 arnie was a hero who defended the future leader of the resistance.

Well maybe the nutters think they are the "heros" and the people they are killing are the "enemies of the future" in their mind....

 

[LutonSpurs]

I would debate Turkey as solely a Middle Eastern country. It sits firmly as a gateway. Tyrant? Erdogan is doing a great job presenting himself that way. Waging war on education? Theocratic? Hmmm...as for Iran, well, to these eyes everyone criticizes them and they have long been the poster boys...I have to ask BTW, why are suggestions he is using the moment to clean house and purge a pre-planned list of people 'insulting'?

Insulting is that the whole coup was pre=planned by him which some commentators are insinuating and a load of people are buying in to the theory. I think that's a whacked out theory BUT I agree he may have allowed it to happen and has achieved goals because of it.

 

[Baleforce]

There is absolutely nothing 'incompetent' about the speed, ferocity and coordination of the response. Ask yourself this - if it was 'incompetence' which 'allowed' this coup to happen, how did Erdogan and co suddenly develop the mad skills to coordinate their response so ruthlessly????

it was more a general thought on the prevalence of false flag conspiracy theories

 

[scaramanga]

There is absolutely nothing 'incompetent' about the speed, ferocity and coordination of the response. Ask yourself this - if it was 'incompetence' which 'allowed' this coup to happen, how did Erdogan and co suddenly develop the mad skills to coordinate their response so ruthlessly????

Seeing as they have a coup in Turkey almost as regularly as we have bank holidays, he probably has an "If there's a coup, do this" file.