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The 'If You Still Need to Purge Yourself Of Ange' Thread

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  • Total voters
    51
billyiddo said:
United are currently 6th in the table, what patience have they had to show this season, that's part of why I'm questioning the 12 months thing - he joined in November so we're talking 6-7 months not 12 of bad form. That said plenty of United fans been calling him out as a bad appointment all through last season and the summer.
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Manchester United finished 15th and are not in Europe and you’re arguing nobody at that club showed patience?
 
Can I remove the off season and pre season from Ange’s time, and also last season up to November when we won at City before all the injuries hit? Because then it wasn’t really 18 months right? It was like 6 months which included a European trophy.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Can I remove the off season and pre season from Ange’s time, and also last season up to November when we won at City before all the injuries hit? Because then it wasn’t really 18 months right? It was like 6 months which included a European trophy.
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I'm happy to go with 1.5 season or 3/4s of his time here if you prefer that to 18 months sure
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Manchester United finished 15th and are not in Europe and you’re arguing nobody at that club showed patience?
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Have I said that no one at United showed him patience?

I've questioned the 12 months line as it is being framed as though it was something beyond what Ange received, when in reality our poor form was much longer
 
billyiddo said:
Have I said that no one at United showed him patience?

I've questioned the 12 months line as it is being framed as though it was something beyond what Ange received, when in reality our poor form was much longer
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By saying ‘what patience have they had to show this season’ you’re disregarding last season, when it’s plainly obvious that a club the size of Manchester United finishing 15th and losing their cup final route into Europe would have had to show patience to a manager delivering those kinds of results.

Ange’s Amorim level poor form was around the same amount of time - a crazy injury hit period from November until about April, and then a prioritisation of the Europa League, which we won. If we’re saying Amorim in reality only had a 6/7 month poor run, I’m going to argue Ange did too. Because his first ten games weren’t. And the second half of his first season wasn’t either - it was a 59 point run rate. Then August to November in his second season wasn’t too bad either. There were some bad results like Ipswich and Brighton, but big wins at United, at City, at home to Villa. There was no suggestion of Ange being under serious pressure until after the injuries that bit in November really started to show.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
By saying ‘what patience have they had to show this season’ you’re disregarding last season, when it’s plainly obvious that a club the size of Manchester United finishing 15th and losing their cup final route into Europe would have had to show patience to a manager delivering those kinds of results.

Ange’s Amorim level poor form was around the same amount of time - a crazy injury hit period from November until about April, and then a prioritisation of the Europa League, which we won. If we’re saying Amorim in reality only had a 6/7 month poor run, I’m going to argue Ange did too. Because his first ten games weren’t. And the second half of his first season wasn’t either - it was a 59 point run rate. Then August to November in his second season wasn’t too bad either. There were some bad results like Ipswich and Brighton, but big wins at United, at City, at home to Villa. There was no suggestion of Ange being under serious pressure until after the injuries that bit in November really started to show.
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Strange way of reading that mate - they've had a good/decent start to the season so have not had to show any patience beyond the decision at the end of last season to stick with him. That shouldn't really need explaining and I'm puzzled as to why you are arguing the point now tbh
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
By saying ‘what patience have they had to show this season’ you’re disregarding last season, when it’s plainly obvious that a club the size of Manchester United finishing 15th and losing their cup final route into Europe would have had to show patience to a manager delivering those kinds of results.

Ange’s Amorim level poor form was around the same amount of time - a crazy injury hit period from November until about April, and then a prioritisation of the Europa League, which we won. If we’re saying Amorim in reality only had a 6/7 month poor run, I’m going to argue Ange did too. Because his first ten games weren’t. And the second half of his first season wasn’t either - it was a 59 point run rate. Then August to November in his second season wasn’t too bad either. There were some bad results like Ipswich and Brighton, but big wins at United, at City, at home to Villa. There was no suggestion of Ange being under serious pressure until after the injuries that bit in November really started to show.
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The injuries were a result of how he chose to play, as he said himself more than once. So I reckon we can remove that excuse from his ever changing list, as it was never going to change.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
By saying ‘what patience have they had to show this season’ you’re disregarding last season, when it’s plainly obvious that a club the size of Manchester United finishing 15th and losing their cup final route into Europe would have had to show patience to a manager delivering those kinds of results.

Ange’s Amorim level poor form was around the same amount of time - a crazy injury hit period from November until about April, and then a prioritisation of the Europa League, which we won. If we’re saying Amorim in reality only had a 6/7 month poor run, I’m going to argue Ange did too. Because his first ten games weren’t. And the second half of his first season wasn’t either - it was a 59 point run rate. Then August to November in his second season wasn’t too bad either. There were some bad results like Ipswich and Brighton, but big wins at United, at City, at home to Villa. There was no suggestion of Ange being under serious pressure until after the injuries that bit in November really started to show.
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One man's view.

Firstly, I think there is a difference between starting your job on day 1 of pre-season versus picking up activities mid-season. In some ways, this season is really Amorin's first one where he might feel more in control. It's the one where he has the power of veto on signings and starts to shape his own squad differently. That is knowing that Utd have had a mare in the transfer window the in the years leading up to him joining. I don't think Ange had that. We did some great moulding of our squad in the 2 years leading up to Ange joining. We cleared deadwood and we invested in some superb players for Ange to work with. I think he started ahead of Amorin in terms of playing squad.

We've had a pretty decent start to this season. Utd are 1 point behind us. I'm not even sure there should be noise about Amorin at this stage in the same way there shouldn't be about Frank.

The big challenge for Spurs fans talking about Amorin is that you don't become intimately knowledgable on other team's managers unless you're one of them. Second best thing is when they've managed your club as well. I think that's why we're probably more qualified to talk about Ange, Jose, Conte, Poch etc in their new jobs over other managers like Amorin in their current ones. Personally, I have no clue whether Amorin is operating at a level that Utd need. I do know that my conclusion on Ange after 2 seasons was that he absolutely wasn't.
 
Mikey10 said:
The injuries were a result of how he chose to play, as he said himself more than once. So I reckon we can remove that excuse from his ever changing list, as it was never going to change.
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1. I don’t think he’s ever ‘changed’ his ‘list’ because whatever explanation he has given for last season has stayed the same, and has been grounded in the reality of what happened.

2. He has acknowledged that when he first joins a new team there is an adaptation period where there may be a higher than normal injury rate, but that players will then usually adapt. That is what he acknowledged. And it’s very different to what you are saying.
 
Muttley said:
One man's view.

Firstly, I think there is a difference between starting your job on day 1 of pre-season versus picking up activities mid-season. In some ways, this season is really Amorin's first one where he might feel more in control. It's the one where he has the power of veto on signings and starts to shape his own squad differently. That is knowing that Utd have had a mare in the transfer window the in the years leading up to him joining. I don't think Ange had that. We did some great moulding of our squad in the 2 years leading up to Ange joining. We cleared deadwood and we invested in some superb players for Ange to work with. I think he started ahead of Amorin in terms of playing squad.

We've had a pretty decent start to this season. Utd are 1 point behind us. I'm not even sure there should be noise about Amorin at this stage in the same way there shouldn't be about Frank.

The big challenge for Spurs fans talking about Amorin is that you don't become intimately knowledgable on other team's managers unless you're one of them. Second best thing is when they've managed your club as well. I think that's why we're probably more qualified to talk about Ange, Jose, Conte, Poch etc in their new jobs over other managers like Amorin in their current ones. Personally, I have no clue whether Amorin is operating at a level that Utd need. I do know that my conclusion on Ange after 2 seasons was that he absolutely wasn't.
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Appreciate this response. To be clear I’m not trying to take any firm line on Amorim being good or bad, or predicting what is going to happen with him going forward. My personal opinion is that I actually want Amorim to do quite well, because I like someone that so firmly sticks to their guns and is willing to go against the accepted wisdom that he just needs to adapt. But I wasn’t trying to make an argument about Amorim exactly.

It was more in the spirit of debate, because I had heard in this thread and the Frank thread this idea of patience being earned, that Ange hadn’t really earned patience, and that there was no sign of things getting better. And my point was that I don’t think patience is earned. Because if you are putting in great performances and not getting the results, it’s likely that results will follow. It’s not hard to offer patience in that scenario.

Real patience, I would contend, is what United have shown Amorim. To say, results have been historically bad, performances have been bad. And a club their size has finished FIFTHTEENTH and failed to get into Europe through their cup route. Whether he had a pre season or not, I think it’s plainly obvious that United have had to show patience, because for them to finish almost bottom quartile and not have a trophy to show for it is horrendous for a club that size. That’s real patience, when nothing in terms of results and performances is showing anything and yet they believe and trust in his work.

That’s all I’m saying. We can debate whether Amorim would have done better with a pre season or different signings and I’m sure he would have. That’s not what I’m debating. Many clubs would have sacked Amorim earlier, either last season or maybe this one on the defeat to Grimsby.

What I am saying is that I don’t think patience is earned. Patience is something you give when it isn’t obvious it is going to be rewarded through results and performances. United deserve credit for having a belief in Amorim and sticking with him despite a historically bad finish. I would say Spurs did not show Ange patience, and if they had done, there is a fair chance his third season would have been really good.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
1. I don’t think he’s ever ‘changed’ his ‘list’ because whatever explanation he has given for last season has stayed the same, and has been grounded in the reality of what happened.

2. He has acknowledged that when he first joins a new team there is an adaptation period where there may be a higher than normal injury rate, but that players will then usually adapt. That is what he acknowledged. And it’s very different to what you are saying.
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Point 2 is insane, it should have been questioned at the time and it’s not an excuse or an explanation now.

It’s like a chef taking over a new restaurant and saying, “the first few months, customers will get food poisoning, but that will hopefully stop”.
 
Baleforce said:
Point 2 is insane, it should have been questioned at the time and it’s not an excuse or an explanation now.

It’s like a chef taking over a new restaurant and saying, “the first few months, customers will get food poisoning, but that will hopefully stop”.
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Ange’s whole point was that the players need to get used to a different type of training in order to play a higher tempo style of football, a style he believes would generate results. It’s not a controversial thing and actually pretty common in high level sport, where the athlete gets used to the level of training in order to carry out the expected strategy.

It’s nothing like your analogy. The customers don’t need to get used to a certain type of cooking in order to appreciate the restaurant, they can just go elsewhere. The whole point here was that a higher tempo style would necessitate a certain level of training to enable the team to play it effectively, and that if there was an adaptation period, it would be worth it for the success that would follow.

I’m sure your opinion is that success didn’t follow and that Ange’s training caused all of the injuries. Fine. But I’d just prefer it if we didn’t misrepresent something he said, which is an entirely normal thing for a high level sports leader to say.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Ange’s whole point was that the players need to get used to a different type of training in order to play a higher tempo style of football, a style he believes would generate results. It’s not a controversial thing and actually pretty common in high level sport, where the athlete gets used to the level of training in order to carry out the expected strategy.

It’s nothing like your analogy. The customers don’t need to get used to a certain type of cooking in order to appreciate the restaurant, they can just go elsewhere. The whole point here was that a higher tempo style would necessitate a certain level of training to enable the team to play it effectively, and that if there was an adaptation period, it would be worth it for the success that would follow.

I’m sure your opinion is that success didn’t follow and that Ange’s training caused all of the injuries. Fine. But I’d just prefer it if we didn’t misrepresent something he said, which is an entirely normal thing for a high level sports leader to say.
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He said it was normal that they would get injured under his training methods.

I think that’s crazy.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Appreciate this response. To be clear I’m not trying to take any firm line on Amorim being good or bad, or predicting what is going to happen with him going forward. My personal opinion is that I actually want Amorim to do quite well, because I like someone that so firmly sticks to their guns and is willing to go against the accepted wisdom that he just needs to adapt. But I wasn’t trying to make an argument about Amorim exactly.

It was more in the spirit of debate, because I had heard in this thread and the Frank thread this idea of patience being earned, that Ange hadn’t really earned patience, and that there was no sign of things getting better. And my point was that I don’t think patience is earned. Because if you are putting in great performances and not getting the results, it’s likely that results will follow. It’s not hard to offer patience in that scenario.

Real patience, I would contend, is what United have shown Amorim. To say, results have been historically bad, performances have been bad. And a club their size has finished FIFTHTEENTH and failed to get into Europe through their cup route. Whether he had a pre season or not, I think it’s plainly obvious that United have had to show patience, because for them to finish almost bottom quartile and not have a trophy to show for it is horrendous for a club that size. That’s real patience, when nothing in terms of results and performances is showing anything and yet they believe and trust in his work.

That’s all I’m saying. We can debate whether Amorim would have done better with a pre season or different signings and I’m sure he would have. That’s not what I’m debating. Many clubs would have sacked Amorim earlier, either last season or maybe this one on the defeat to Grimsby.

What I am saying is that I don’t think patience is earned. Patience is something you give when it isn’t obvious it is going to be rewarded through results and performances. United deserve credit for having a belief in Amorim and sticking with him despite a historically bad finish. I would say Spurs did not show Ange patience, and if they had done, there is a fair chance his third season would have been really good.
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When I think about patience in football, it is actually a very practical thing. If you don't provide it, you end up shooting yourself in the foot anyway.

Obviously the opposite of having patience is losing patience. Even when you have natural patience, you an still lose it and that felt like the Ange path. Why we lost patience is the more interesting angle especially when you get into the "why". There are so many stakeholders in football and they can all lose patience at different rates. Obviously, some clearly don't at all and maintain the belief. With Ange, the reasons the stakeholders lost patience was multi-faceted. It wasn't just about the black and white things like league finishes. It was in the micro-detail that we all lived through every day for 2 seasons. The stuff that I was saying I can't see with Amorin as my focus isn't there.

All you can hope for with fans is that they at least start with best intent on any new manager. I definitely did with Ange. He lost my support through his words and actions.

So I don't think patience is earned in the first 2 seasons as it should be a practical given. I think it might be though as you move beyond that point and really start to head into a long term relationship with a club like we saw with Poch.
 
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