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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 78 45.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 92 54.1%
  • Total voters
    170
glorygloryeze said:
Hang on, apart from Romero, who are you talking about here?
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All the players
Sonny is still paying for SK when he can barely run
He is the captain
Romero we know about
All the players, right now would prioritise their countries
So when they come back they are thinking about what they left behind
That’s the switch that has to flick
 
Muttley said:
lol - bringing an Ange In and Out thread back to Ange In and Out conversation. We can carry on talking about Ginola if you like.
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We should LOL!


Muttley said:
Do we know he is dead man walking? Do we know that this set of players won't get up for every game? It was 16 Feb against Utd when we had our first semblance of a squad after the injury and fatigue period. We always said there would be a period of those players getting right up to match fitness and form. Well we now enter April and hopefully the pieces should be in place.
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We don't know anything in truth, so let me qualify this by saying it is my opinion only. But again, you're right - nobody actually knows on our side of the fence.
As for April, yes, the proof of the pudding and all that...



Muttley said:
It is now contingent on the managers and players to walk the talk. I think we will learn a lot from this point.
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Where I don't quite get this mate, is that you're suggesting they haven't been before? Maybe I have that wrong? I think it is clear that they have been giving their all and depletion in several areas has rendered that not enough.



Muttley said:
The word-smithing / EL connection is yours not mine actually. That was just a general comment by me about Ange comms.
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I get that mate. I was pointing out that -IMO- it was another dig at Ange which had nothing to do with what we need to do to win the EL.



Muttley said:
However, it's clear that Ange will need to at his motivational best to get these players into the right belief system to win that cup. It is why it just isn't as simple as sacrificing the league to win the cup. You have to use the league to get the momentum for the cups. That is the winning mentality I want to see. Also, those 3 or 4 places in the league are worth a few quid as well.
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I agree with you, and believe he will too. You're bang on-point, and I am over-simplifying by suggesting it is a mini-season at best. With regards to tangible success, it is a mini-season - that's a fact - but your point stands well in so much as momentum is so important.
 
Gazza said:
Even if he wins the majority of the last games and wins the ropey… he has to go it’s that’s simple. His stats are shocking and hiding behind the injuries. His tactics are not up to scratch and his one dimensional skill set gets found out easily. Bye bye
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If he wins the Europa he’d instantly become the 3rd/4th best manager in our history,
 
Muttley said:
Nope, for the reasons I said above. How can we win the EL if we're not using the league to get all our tactics honed in and building confidence into the players? We don't have a 2019 situation where a mostly talented squad had been together for 3-4 years and knew exactly what Poch wanted. I sort of understood then why the weekdays were good but the weekends were rubbish.
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...yet he still got them to do enough to scrape 4th and CL placement again!
 
thfcsteff said:
I get that mate. I was pointing out that -IMO- it was another dig at Ange which had nothing to do with what we need to do to win the EL
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It's actually not a dig. It's an opinion based on an instinct.

I've been clear from day 1 that I want Ange talking about football as his priority. I care less than most about his philosophical meanderings and life coaching personas in his pressers. They are just padding that you often see from execs or people in public roles. I've said before that he deflects some of the tougher questions and when another one of the journo's follows up on the same difficult theme he gets spiky. It's all communication technique. I want to see more authenticity from him. It gets me wondering whether the people closest to him are having that same instinct as myself i.e. the players. If his words are not getting the buy-in from them then he is in trouble.

I noticed Milo was talking about him not being so approachable (or something similar) on the pod. Could it be that Ange is a great talker but not a great listener? Is it the imbalance that I'm picking up on?

thfcsteff said:
Where I don't quite get this mate, is that you're suggesting they haven't been before? Maybe I have that wrong? I think it is clear that they have been giving their all and depletion in several areas has rendered that not enough.
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I really don't know with this one. I don't think the players are quitting on him, but I don't think they're going the extra mile either. Well, a couple are like Bergval, Spence etc. I certainly don't think we've run any other team off the park in recent times. That was a characteristic of early Ange football. There is definitely something missing in the intensity of this group. That needs correcting for April if that mini-season is going to be a good one.
 
Muttley said:
It's actually not a dig. It's an opinion based on an instinct.

I've been clear from day 1 that I want Ange talking about football as his priority. I care less than most about his philosophical meanderings and life coaching personas in his pressers. They are just padding that you often see from execs or people in public roles. I've said before that he deflects some of the tougher questions and when another one of the journo's follows up on the same difficult theme he gets spiky.
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Interested in an example of a tougher question. IMO, no journo has asked him a smart or tough question specifically about football, the football we're playing versus the football he wants to play, and what alternatives there could be versus how far those would breach his 'philosophy'. Most of them are the usual 'let me generate a pull-quote 'news bite' rubbish which modern media has sadly become. I think IF someone did ask a genuine question, that would be something.

Muttley said:
It's all communication technique. I want to see more authenticity from him. It gets me wondering whether the people closest to him are having that same instinct as myself i.e. the players. If his words are not getting the buy-in from them then he is in trouble.
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Full disclosure. I am in media (and have been for a little over 40 years). I think you're getting someone who is ostensibly not 'media trained' in the modern sense and has little interest in being so. Thus what you end up getting is someone who is quite stoic, obviously very committed to their specific mantras/ideas, getting served up to an increasing amount of of media duties virtually every other day or so. What you are seeing in his media appearances are, I am virtually certain, not what he is behind the scenes.


Muttley said:
I noticed Milo was talking about him not being so approachable (or something similar) on the pod. Could it be that Ange is a great talker but not a great listener? Is it the imbalance that I'm picking up on?
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He tends to do a lot of work through his coaching staff, so the Wells and Jedinaks would be his daily 'voice' I'd imagine (Mason also). He reminds me very much of an old school record producer (something else I do know about) whereby some were hands-on and in with the artists all the time, whereas others preferred to have a series of meetings and then allow their engineers and assistants to the 'daily' work of finding tones/performances, etc, etc. So I think he listens very, very well to the people he works with. Media? Maybe not so much.

I believe he is not an 'arm around the shoulder' guy, but where I think he has the players onboard is his honesty and integrity. I don't believe he says one thing and does the other, and it does appear that he is true to his word i.e. Spence is the best FB at the club right now, so Spence is starting regardless of Destiny or Porro both being fit because Ange said if you're playing well you play. That's my read anyway.



Muttley said:
I really don't know with this one. I don't think the players are quitting on him, but I don't think they're going the extra mile either. Well, a couple are like Bergval, Spence etc. I certainly don't think we've run any other team off the park in recent times. That was a characteristic of early Ange football. There is definitely something missing in the intensity of this group. That needs correcting for April if that mini-season is going to be a good one.
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Bergvall and Spence are young without several years of football built up in tired bodies. I don't think many of them have an extra mile to go.
 
veryoldspur said:
Tosh, so what you are implying is that people can't have an opinion on something they haven't experienced.

I am a vegetarian, and have been for over 60 years. Barely a day goes by when people don't take the micky out of me, even though I doubt 1% of them would actually slaughter the animal. The reality is I know I am in the minority, so I just laugh and get on with it. I just wish everybody could do the same about everything, then we would all get on so much better
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Oh wow.

I need you to do a little thought experiment for me please and answer these questions honestly:

Firstly imagine you have VEGGIE tattooed or maybe carved into your Forehead.

1) you are walking down the street with your 6 year old daughter and someone in a group calls you a Veggie Cúnt. Your 6 year old turns around to you and says: “Daddy why was that man angry with you? What did he mean?

What do you say to her? What do you feel in that moment?

2) your wife is walking down the street with your half Veggie kids (they have half Veggie tattooed on their foreheads) and is called a fücking sellout slág. She comes home to you crying. How does that make you feel? What do you say to console her?

3) your sister wearing veggie dress is walking home alone is told to go back to Veggie land and her veggie scalf is thrown of the floor by a large man that she believes will physically hurt her. She comes to your home shaking she is scared, what do you say to her, how are you feeling now?

4) it’s the 5th time you have been passed over for promotion, people that are less talented than you, less hardworking less everything than you keep getting promoted ahead of you, and you know it’s because your boss hates Veggies, you have told so by a friend that he has said some very anti Veggie things, but you can’t prove anything and you need the job.

Your family is struggling financially and you could really use the money that the promotion could bring, but you are veggie and you can’t change that. How are you feeling now?

5) your family starts talking about getting kicked out of the country. It’s a real fear for them. They all have Veggie carved into their forehead and even though they sneak a bacon Sandwich partly maybe to fit in, they know to some people they will still always be Veggies and have been Told in various ways “they don’t belong in this country” they don’t speak the Veggie language and are scared of what the future may hold for them if they were forced to go back to Veggie land as they don’t like it there.

What do you say to them?

Now imagine all of that has happed to you and your family within the last 6 months.

How you feeling about things now?

Still sticks and stones?

Water off a ducks back?

Think on that for a bit before you reply, by the way all the above have happened to friends of mine. And there are many more stories.
 
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Bedfordspurs said:
All the players
Sonny is still paying for SK when he can barely run
He is the captain
Romero we know about
All the players, right now would prioritise their countries
So when they come back they are thinking about what they left behind
That’s the switch that has to flick
Click to expand...

Son has been mismanaged by the club and country imo. That's not to say he puts more effort for country than for us. If anything, we have messed up in recent years by not trying to lobby for his minutes with SK to being reduced, especially in dead rubber qualifiers and friendlies, but then again, we have ourselves had opportunities to mange his minutes in our games and haven't done so: even when he's barely been able to run due to being overworked.
It is then ridiculous if we say "Son puts in more effort for his country than for us".
Son certainly doesn't prioritise playing for SK over us.

In terms of the others: are you not in a roundabout way saying they look better for their countries because the coaches for said countries play systems that better suit them and, at the least, don't expose their weaknesses? Is that more a reflection on Ange and his methods than the players?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Son has been mismanaged by the club and country imo. That's not to say he puts more effort for country than for us. If anything, we have messed up in recent years by not trying to lobby for his minutes with SK to being reduced, especially in dead rubber qualifiers and friendlies, but then again, we have ourselves had opportunities to mange his minutes in our games and haven't done so: even when he's barely been able to run due to being overworked.
It is then ridiculous if we say "Son puts in more effort for his country than for us".
Son certainly doesn't prioritise playing for SK over us.

In terms of the others: are you not in a roundabout way saying they look better for their countries because the coaches for said countries play systems that better suit them and, at the least, don't expose their weaknesses? Is that more a reflection on Ange and his methods than the players?
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Sonny has a choice
He is proud to play for his country, and captain
But he had a choice
I’m deffo not saying they look better for their countries .. did you see Romero mistake last week
What I’m saying is because of where we are and also how we operate the players we have would prioritise their countries over their clubs
And IMO that man’s as soon as they are back, and because of the negativity around the club, they will march be thinking about going back to their countries
 
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DTA said:
Oh wow.

I need you to do a little thought experiment for me please and answer these questions honestly:

Firstly imagine you have VEGGIE tattooed or maybe carved into your Forehead.

1) you are walking down the street with your 6 year old daughter and someone in a group calls you a Veggie Cúnt. Your 6 year old turns around to you and says: “Daddy why was that man angry with you? What did he mean?

What do you say to her? What do you feel in that moment?

2) your wife is walking down the street with your half Veggie kids (they have half Veggie tattooed on their foreheads) and is called a fücking sellout slág. She comes home to you crying. How does that make you feel? What do you say to console her?

3) your sister wearing veggie dress is walking home alone is told to go back to Veggie land and her veggie scalf is thrown of the floor by a large man that she believes will physically hurt her. She comes to your home shaking she is scared, what do you say to her, how are you feeling now?

4) it’s the 5th time you have been passed over for promotion, people that are less talented than you, less hardworking less everything than you keep getting promoted ahead of you, and you know it’s because your boss hates Veggies, you have told so by a friend that he has said some very anti Veggie things, but you can’t prove anything and you need the job.

Your family is struggling financially and you could really use the money that the promotion could bring, but you are veggie and you can’t change that. How are you feeling now?

5) your family starts talking about getting kicked out of the country. It’s a real fear for them. They all have Veggie carved into their forehead and even though they sneak a bacon Sandwich partly maybe to fit in, they know to some people they will still always be Veggies and have been Told in various ways “they don’t belong in this country” they don’t speak the Veggie language and are scared of what the future may hold for them if they were forced to go back to Veggie land as they don’t like it there.

What do you say to them?

Now imagine all of that has happed to you and your family within the last 6 months.

How you feeling about things now?

Still sticks and stones?

Water off a ducks back?

Think on that for a bit before you reply, by the way all the above have happened to friends of mine. And there are many more stories.
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As a bloody vegetarian, I'm somewhat embarrassed that it was used as any kind of comparison to racism.

Eloquently put, and it will no doubt be ignored by the numerous utter dingdongheads that actively choose to spend their time on the internet attempting to diminish the impact of racism. I wonder if they speak about the choice of doing that, "what did I get up to today dear? Oh I just spent some time telling people with real life experience of hate crimes that it isn't so bad and that they should just get over it" - Slimy clams with nothing better to do.
 
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Grays_1890 said:
Caskey
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I played against and alongside Darren many times over the years. His main attributes were his ability to read the game and that he was a good organiser of others, he also had good physicality. Jeff Minton was head and shoulders the best player in that age-group at Tottenham. In fact him and Chris Bart Williams were the best two players in the England in that age group and both of them lived within a couple of miles of White Hart Lane.
 
Daveeeeeeeed said:
WTF have I been reading?

GINOLA carried our team the whole time he played for us. Had we got him ten years earlier, we would have won more. Had he played the same amount of games as Kane, he would have had a statue built outside our club.

I'm truly angry.
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Ginola also refused to do any of the things that would've made him a GREAT player instead of a very good one that entertained.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Yeah. Ginola was dream to watch for fans but pure definition of "highlight" player. That's not to take away the fact he was the one aspect of watching Spurs that brought joy and hope for a good few years.

Lamela played a pivotal starting role in probably the best Spurs team in the modern era. A lot of his key work went unnoticed. He was a leader on the pitch, often leading the high press. He got in opponents faces early and if opposing team starting dishing out sh** he was always ready to not only take it but start dishing it out back in spades, always sly though, given his love of the dark arts he rarely got sent off himself.

Lamela embodied the culture and attitude any top team must have and it's a sorry contrast to our current bunch of pussies who too easily get shaken out of their rhythm by an opponent willing to push the boundaries of what the ref will tolerate.

Aside from all of that Lamela was also a quality player that has his own not inconsiderate highlight reel. His one weak point was his right foot. The joke about his robana goals was he only scored such ridiculously good goals because he'd basically do ANYTHING to avoid using his right foot!

Lack of pace also probably drops him below true elite level, but a vital cog in a quality team nonetheless.
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Lamela ranks somewhere between Andy Sinton and Darren Anderton in the history of decent Spurs players and I'd argue that he probably ranked closer to Sinton than Anderton.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I played against and alongside Darren many times over the years. His main attributes were his ability to read the game and that he was a good organiser of others, he also had good physicality. Jeff Minton was head and shoulders the best player in that age-group at Tottenham. In fact him and Chris Bart Williams were the best two players in the England in that age group and both of them lived within a couple of miles of White Hart Lane.
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I played in a youth side at Grays under Jeff when he was there, they swapped him with Adam Miller at Canvey which was a mistake, funny enough Wayne Burnett who I still keep in touch with was in CM then too, was head and shoulder above the level. Caskey was at Hornchurch by then and was dreadful
 
Mikey10 said:
I couldn’t care less about whether he’s defined as ‘great’ or ‘good’; he was one of those players who makes the game worth watching.
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Yep 'great to watch' is a label I'd use for Ginola as opposed to just being able to use 'great' on its own. The sort of player that makes a mediocre (at best) team worth watching but wouldn't be picked by teams with aspirations of winning the title as they make a lot of their team mates jobs much harder. The very best players combine talent, skill and confidence with desire and work rate.
 
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