Financial Fair Play

[Jordinho]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

If someone started a soft drink company and gave their product away for free for the sole purpose of having the biggest market share, would that be allowed? At some point they will probably stop, but what happens to every other company in the mean time?

If you invest money into a business you expect a profitable return at some point. Exposure and fame for the owner doesn't really count as that in my view. Even if you consider it as marketing for Abu Dhabi, it's still about financially rewarding as burning money to stay warm.

There are other sports that either have spending caps or are discussing the introduction of them. It is comparable to US sports even if it isn't a closed competition. If you want your club to play in the PL? These are the rules you need to follow. Same with the CL. The rules are there to restrict the amount money spent on the team, the one that actually enters the competition. You can spend all you like on the infrastructure around them.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

So you think its fair to be competitive towards 2 or 3, yet the club becomes uncompetitive to the rest of the league. What stopping the 15 or so clubs going to Europe saying that its unfair that they spend a billion on new players, that's uncompetitive.

But it isn't anticompetitive.

Life isn't always fair. Football isn't always fair. Some clubs have the good fortune to be bought by billionaire benefactors or passionate visionaries while others are bought by opportunists or incompetents.

Perhaps many clubs don't deserve the fate that befalls them. Perhaps they do. It matters not.

The point is that the unfairness, as you see it, isn't institutionalised. It isn't written in law. It is just the way that the dice rolled.

FFP, on the other hand, will institutionalise unfairness. It will be a restriction of trade. And that is why it is unlikely, if challenged, to be tolerated by the lawmakers at the European Court of Justice.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

Final question.


If economical issues can't be used for deciding who gets does or does not get into a competition, why are Malaga not legally challenging their ban for next years European competition, which has been placed upon then for economic reasons?


And if you do an economic sanction for this, which will be a rule that Uefa has created, why not a rule for FFP?

I know little about the specifics of the Malaga case.

But wasn't there an issue with their owner no longer wishing to invest heavily in the club henceforward - which is why there were plenty of rumours about our interest in Isco back in August.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

If someone started a soft drink company and gave their product away for free for the sole purpose of having the biggest market share, would that be allowed? At some point they will probably stop, but what happens to every other company in the mean time?

If you invest money into a business you expect a profitable return at some point. Exposure and fame for the owner doesn't really count as that in my view. Even if you consider it as marketing for Abu Dhabi, it's still about financially rewarding as burning money to stay warm.

There are other sports that either have spending caps or are discussing the introduction of them. It is comparable to US sports even if it isn't a closed competition. If you want your club to play in the PL? These are the rules you need to follow. Same with the CL. The rules are there to restrict the amount money spent on the team, the one that actually enters the competition. You can spend all you like on the infrastructure around them.

Similar situations have happened in the past.

The transatlantic flight price war between Freddie Laker and BA springs to mind.

As to comparisons with U.S. sport, they don't really work. In fact, the opposite is true of U.S. sports. Fairness is institutionalised! Major revenue streams are shared equally. The worst performing teams get the pick of the best new players. Etc etc.

Of course, this is all possible because U.S. sports, at the highest level, are closed shops. No relegation. No promotion.

We don't have that in European football. Never will. Therefore, institutional unfairness can only be avoided if free market rules apply.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

Final question.


If economical issues can't be used for deciding who gets does or does not get into a competition, why are Malaga not legally challenging their ban for next years European competition, which has been placed upon then for economic reasons?


And if you do an economic sanction for this, which will be a rule that Uefa has created, why not a rule for FFP?

For the same reasons that jimmy is arguing... uefa is a business as a whole and they have set criteria for who they will trade with by choice (FFP). Malaga do not currently meet their criteria

It's the same that a large company operates a vendor assessment system.... If you comply with all the requirements you MAY get the opportunity to quote, no guarantees but you still have to go through their rules and systems as long as their not illegal.

UEFA have done nothing illegal in saying that if you do not comply with FFP you cannot compete in a UEFA run competition.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

But it isn't anticompetitive.

Life isn't always fair. Football isn't always fair. Some clubs have the good fortune to be bought by billionaire benefactors or passionate visionaries while others are bought by opportunists or incompetents.

Perhaps many clubs don't deserve the fate that befalls them. Perhaps they do. It matters not.

The point is that the unfairness, as you see it, isn't institutionalised. It isn't written in law. It is just the way that the dice rolled.

FFP, on the other hand, will institutionalise unfairness. It will be a restriction of trade. And that is why it is unlikely, if challenged, to be tolerated by the lawmakers at the European Court of Justice.

That is simply not true.. any owner can pump in 500m and build a 70,000 stadium, thus propelling them into the upper echelons of the premiership elite. No body is being held back should they want to join the elite. They are being asked to pump money into infrastructure instead of just buying players for an ego. UEFA are protecting the clubs from doing a Portsmouth.. if Portsmouth owner had built the new stadium, would they be where they are today, or be in the brickmire they find themselves in.. for one they would be a better position to find another owner for a start.

Its that saying.. Build it and they will come.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

That is simply not true.. any owner can pump in 500m and build a 70,000 stadium, thus propelling them into the upper echelons of the premiership elite. No body is being held back should they want to join the elite. They are being asked to pump money into infrastructure instead of just buying players for an ego. UEFA are protecting the clubs from doing a Portsmouth.. if Portsmouth owner had built the new stadium, would they be where they are today, or be in the brickmire they find themselves in.. for one they would be a better position to find another owner for a start.

Its that saying.. Build it and they will come.

That "saying" comes from a Kevin Costner film!

It was true, so to speak, for that story. But it's not a universal truth. Far from it.

Protecting clubs from financial difficulty is laudable. But there are ways of achieving that without introducing the kind of rules encompassed by FFP. Anyone who believes that FFP is just about protecting clubs from financial difficulty isn't looking at the bigger picture and at the self interest that characterises the clubs at the top of the European game. FFP is every bit as much about preserving the status quo and preventing lesser clubs from ever again threatening the hegemony of the current elite.

A smaller club building a big, new stadium without being allowed a concomitant investment in the team will be building a white elephant. In order to attract new fans, you have to assemble a team of sufficient quality. Penalising or preventing a club from doing just that is a restriction of trade. Pure and simple.

 

[jts1882]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

It's not a free market as it currently stands. The 'businesses' (clubs) are all sorted into different 'markets' (leagues).


Can you name me another business sector that this behaviour applies to?

Pretty much any sector where businesses are sorted into different 'markets' (countries).

Few sectors are truly global markets. The market for selling goods and services is mostly national: supermarkets, utilities, building, some transport (e.g. rail), etc. At the same time they have to operate in a global market for commodities and energy. But this is like football clubs, they sell tickets and TV rights locally, while operating in a global market for players. Success in big national market allows the businesses to become global players, which again isn't so different from football clubs in big national markets.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

For the same reasons that jimmy is arguing... uefa is a business as a whole and they have set criteria for who they will trade with by choice (FFP). Malaga do not currently meet their criteria

It's the same that a large company operates a vendor assessment system.... If you comply with all the requirements you MAY get the opportunity to quote, no guarantees but you still have to go through their rules and systems as long as their not illegal.

UEFA have done nothing illegal in saying that if you do not comply with FFP you cannot compete in a UEFA run competition.

That's the opposite reason to the one Jimmy is arguing. He's saying that FFP is anticompetitive and therefore illegal, well that it wouldn't hold up at the high court level.


You seem to be agreeing with what i have been saying.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

That's the opposite reason to the one Jimmy is arguing. He's saying that FFP is anticompetitive and therefore illegal, well that it wouldn't hold up at the high court level.


You seem to be agreeing with what i have been saying.

I meant that he was trying to put it into business level. I've put in place enough systems to pick and choose who I/we work with to know that its perfectly legal globally to hav a system where you set the rules providing you don't descrmibaye against any laws.

Anti competitive only exists in a situation within a companies normal place of work. Were talking European competition where you have to a) qualify against a criteria set out in advance b) meet that companies selection criteria to gain entry into that market. Seems straightforward to me hence why Malaga aren't complaining as the criteria has been communicated in advance

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

Absolutely.

But that doesn't change the fact that FFP is, in essence, anticompetitive.

But also it's true to say the way Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project and others have 'invested' is also anti-competitive.

They've not spent their own money. They've not generated that money through the club or as a business and they wouldn't have been able to even borrow that kind of money or service that kind of debt based on their 'traditional' income.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

I meant that he was trying to put it into business level. I've put in place enough systems to pick and choose who I/we work with to know that its perfectly legal globally to hav a system where you set the rules providing you don't descrmibaye against any laws.

Anti competitive only exists in a situation within a companies normal place of work. Were talking European competition where you have to a) qualify against a criteria set out in advance b) meet that companies selection criteria to gain entry into that market. Seems straightforward to me hence why Malaga aren't complaining as the criteria has been communicated in advance

The author of the article, who is an expert in the area of EU competition law (especially relating to sport), takes the opposite view.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

But also it's true to say the way Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project and others have 'invested' is also anti-competitive.

They've not spent their own money. They've not generated that money through the club or as a business and they wouldn't have been able to even borrow that kind of money or service that kind of debt based on their 'traditional' income.

But what you're talking about could never be a legal definition of anticompetitive.

That's because in theory, at least, any club could benefit from the kind of investment that has helped City and Chelsea. There is nothing to prevent it from happening. There is nothing restrictive or institutionally unfair about wealthy owners being able to invest in their clubs.

By contrast, FFP is both restrictive and institutionally unfair.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

That "saying" comes from a Kevin Costner film!

It was true, so to speak, for that story. But it's not a universal truth. Far from it.

Protecting clubs from financial difficulty is laudable. But there are ways of achieving that without introducing the kind of rules encompassed by FFP. Anyone who believes that FFP is just about protecting clubs from financial difficulty isn't looking at the bigger picture and at the self interest that characterises the clubs at the top of the European game. FFP is every bit as much about preserving the status quo and preventing lesser clubs from ever again threatening the hegemony of the current elite.

A smaller club building a big, new stadium without being allowed a concomitant investment in the team will be building a white elephant. In order to attract new fans, you have to assemble a team of sufficient quality. Penalising or preventing a club from doing just that is a restriction of trade. Pure and simple.

And that makes it any less worthy.. its still true.

Again.. simply not true. Any sugar daddy would have paid for the stadium therefore to start of with the ticket prices would be reasonable to entice the fans in.. then over time the prices will rise in line with what star players they bring in. A gradual rise.


You seem to be supporting exactly the thing you are against.. the easy ride of an elitist group. Bring me 90 Billionaires all willing to spend a billion then we maybe get on the same page.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

I meant that he was trying to put it into business level. I've put in place enough systems to pick and choose who I/we work with to know that its perfectly legal globally to hav a system where you set the rules providing you don't descrmibaye against any laws.

Anti competitive only exists in a situation within a companies normal place of work. Were talking European competition where you have to a) qualify against a criteria set out in advance b) meet that companies selection criteria to gain entry into that market. Seems straightforward to me hence why Malaga aren't complaining as the criteria has been communicated in advance

Sounds like a pretty interesting line of work. Also you seem to state that it works the way i thought it should.


Time will tell though, we'll have to see if and when anyone tries to get around FFP sanctions.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

And that makes it any less worthy.. its still true.

Again.. simply not true. Any sugar daddy would have paid for the stadium therefore to start of with the ticket prices would be reasonable to entice the fans in.. then over time the prices will rise in line with what star players they bring in. A gradual rise.


You seem to be supporting exactly the thing you are against.. the easy ride of an elitist group. Bring me 90 Billionaires all willing to spend a billion then we maybe get on the same page.

Not at all. I'm just not getting emotional about it.

No matter how much anyone rails about the unfairness of billionaires investing in their clubs, there is nothing restrictive about it.

There is a great deal that is restrictive about FFP.

Oh, and......."if you build it, they will come" is not a universal truth.

There are countless examples around the world that disprove it.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

Not at all. I'm just not getting emotional about it.

No matter how much anyone rails about the unfairness of billionaires investing in their clubs, there is nothing restrictive about it.

There is a great deal that is restrictive about FFP.

Oh, and......."if you build it, they will come" is not a universal truth.

There are countless examples around the world that disprove it.

The rest of the league is restricted. Again find me 90 billionaires then we can get on the same page.

So your not in the slightest tinkled that Tottenham have missed out on Champions league football the past 5 years or so.. or other clubs that sit outside the elitest group, which includes the two Billionaire owners you want to support or in part there ideals.

 

[milo]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

The author of the article, who is an expert in the area of EU competition law (especially relating to sport), takes the opposite view.

And the owner of the newspaper that published the article has an interest in maintaining a status quo that has served them very well and a history of using their various media outlets to promote their other business activities.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

The rest of the league is restricted. Again find me 90 billionaires then we can get on the same page.

So your not in the slightest tinkled that Tottenham have missed out on Champions league football the past 5 years or so.. or other clubs that sit outside the elitest group, which includes the two Billionaire owners you want to support or in part there ideals.

You're approaching this issue from an emotional standpoint.

And, while that's understandable, emotion won't play a part in any decision to be made in the event that FFP is challenged. Any decision will be made on the basis cold, hard points of European competition law.

I am amazed that so many people fail to see that FFP could very well make matters worse for football generally and clubs like ours in particular. I suspect that they simply haven't yet examined and thought through the full implications.

Nevertheless, contrary to your claim, I'm not acting as an advocate for any side of the argument. I'm simply explaining (as does the original article) why, I believe, FFP will prove to be unenforceable if challenged at the European Court of Justice.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Very interesting article on Financial Fair Play

And the owner of the newspaper that published the article has an interest in maintaining a status quo that has served them very well and a history of using their various media outlets to promote their other business activities.

You've lost me there, fella. Was that just a general observation about the WSJ or was it also intended to be pertinent to the author's views about FFP?