Richarlison

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

So why if there is a benefit of doubt to give, and we only get to see half the facts do some fans seem to less than 50% of their weight to the club. I might be wrong, but I feel that some fans seem to be more with Richi than THFC on this one. Not sure I've seen any fans going complete black and white on the issue though.

I think fans should forget that at work we sometimes have to turn grey into black and white and make a decision. You then have to live with it and move on. Well THFC is also a company and have done exactly this. Should we not be happy with them for being this assertive?

Agree with this. I would understand it more if it was eg Kane or Son. A player that had given us so many great moments that you’re almost a fan of them as much as the club, or at least you think they’ve earned the right to do whatever they want in their career, because they’ve given us more than enough.

I also was more on the side of Poch when he was sacked vs the club. I genuinely thought it was the wrong decision for the club to sack him. And in that sense, if people think that Richy not being registered is more harmful to the club long term than not, I do understand. I just choose to come down on a different side of the argument. Both because not registering him is a deliberate and intentional act, and because it doesn’t seem like Richy has been consistent or professional in how he’s dealt with the situation. I think the club is looking out for the whole, not for one player, and sometimes things like this have to happen in my view.

I can also see that, as with all ‘fall outs’ in life, it comes down to communication. And maybe something was missed. Maybe there has been some misunderstanding. And in those instances if there’s ever going to be a make up, it takes one side and ideally both to hold their hands up and say ‘I got that wrong’. So for me I’m still curious as to whether it was explained to Richy that if he did not go elsewhere, that he was not in the plans and would not be registered. Clearly at the start of the summer we were trying our best to keep him, as we did with Bergval, and at some point that changed. Once it changed, were the consequences clearly explained to him? If they were not, I can understand why he would think it’s an over reaction on the club’s part not to be registered.

OTOH, there’s every chance he might have still been registered had he not taken to social media during the Everton deal. And if the club’s decision is a consequence of that action, I back them 100%. I just don’t think we can be a club where players continue to feel comfortable speaking out like that. Especially when I think the club would be entirely justified in saying they’ve dealt with all players in good faith this summer. They’ve made efforts to keep players and wanted to see commitment from them in return. And they’ve let anyone go that wanted to go, to their preferred club, quickly, and without holding them hostage for a crazy price. If the club is doing all that, and still has to deal with social media criticism from one of said players, I back the action to not register him. Standards will benefit us long term. If we are ever going to rebuild a culture, we have to act with a confidence that suggests we believe we have something that is worth buying into. And not be a place that players feel like they can speak out against, because I would argue it’s exactly that feeling that leads players to not being committed, to not buying in to the future, and ultimately deciding this is not the place for them anymore. We need to not be a transient place where players are half in and half out. We need buy in.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

We are bottom of the league and out of one cup one month into the league.

I think we are in a fairly safe zone about questioning some decisions and it not being about player v club

 

[Baleforce]

Agree with this. I would understand it more if it was eg Kane or Son. A player that had given us so many great moments that you’re almost a fan of them as much as the club, or at least you think they’ve earned the right to do whatever they want in their career, because they’ve given us more than enough.

I also was more on the side of Poch when he was sacked vs the club. I genuinely thought it was the wrong decision for the club to sack him. And in that sense, if people think that Richy not being registered is more harmful to the club long term than not, I do understand. I just choose to come down on a different side of the argument. Both because not registering him is a deliberate and intentional act, and because it doesn’t seem like Richy has been consistent or professional in how he’s dealt with the situation. I think the club is looking out for the whole, not for one player, and sometimes things like this have to happen in my view.

I can also see that, as with all ‘fall outs’ in life, it comes down to communication. And maybe something was missed. Maybe there has been some misunderstanding. And in those instances if there’s ever going to be a make up, it takes one side and ideally both to hold their hands up and say ‘I got that wrong’. So for me I’m still curious as to whether it was explained to Richy that if he did not go elsewhere, that he was not in the plans and would not be registered. Clearly at the start of the summer we were trying our best to keep him, as we did with Bergval, and at some point that changed. Once it changed, were the consequences clearly explained to him? If they were not, I can understand why he would think it’s an over reaction on the club’s part not to be registered.

OTOH, there’s every chance he might have still been registered had he not taken to social media during the Everton deal. And if the club’s decision is a consequence of that action, I back them 100%. I just don’t think we can be a club where players continue to feel comfortable speaking out like that. Especially when I think the club would be entirely justified in saying they’ve dealt with all players in good faith this summer. They’ve made efforts to keep players and wanted to see commitment from them in return. And they’ve let anyone go that wanted to go, to their preferred club, quickly, and without holding them hostage for a crazy price. If the club is doing all that, and still has to deal with social media criticism from one of said players, I back the action to not register him. Standards will benefit us long term. If we are ever going to rebuild a culture, we have to act with a confidence that suggests we believe we have something that is worth buying into. And not be a place that players feel like they can speak out against, because I would argue it’s exactly that feeling that leads players to not being committed, to not buying in to the future, and ultimately deciding this is not the place for them anymore. We need to not be a transient place where players are half in and half out. We need buy in.

No player is ever 100% bought in to a club.

They are all mercenaries.

Kane left, Hoddle left, even Mabbutt wanted to leave.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

No player is ever 100% bought in to a club.

They are all mercenaries.

Kane left, Hoddle left, even Mabbutt wanted to leave.

Ok, but there’s a difference between 100% buy in for the rest of your career, clear buy in for the next 2-3 seasons to build something, and publicly posting on social media against your club in the middle of a transfer negotiation.

We need better standards. Better standards will give good players something to buy into, and will forge a culture that should endure and benefit us longer term.

I don’t know for sure, but I think there’s a big chance had Richy not took to social media he probably would still be registered. And if that’s the case, I back the club 100% on that. We have for too many years given players too much power because we were worried about protecting their financial value. Now, I am quite happy that we have owners making decisions with the deep pockets and also the willingness to actually invest more in the club.

I really do get why not having Richy registered is for certain people a dumb decision. It clearly gives us less optionally short term on a match day. And if people think players should be fine to post on social during a transfer negotiation and position themselves against the club, also fine. I just don’t agree with that, and I would rather our club has standards.

 

[Baleforce]

Ok, but there’s a difference between 100% buy in for the rest of your career, clear buy in for the next 2-3 seasons to build something, and publicly posting on social media against your club in the middle of a transfer negotiation.

We need better standards. Better standards will give good players something to buy into, and will forge a culture that should endure and benefit us longer term.

I don’t know for sure, but I think there’s a big chance had Richy not took to social media he probably would still be registered. And if that’s the case, I back the club 100% on that. We have for too many years given players too much power because we were worried about protecting their financial value. Now, I am quite happy that we have owners making decisions with the deep pockets and also the willingness to actually invest more in the club.

I really do get why not having Richy registered is for certain people a dumb decision. It clearly gives us less optionally short term on a match day. And if people think players should be fine to post on social during a transfer negotiation and position themselves against the club, also fine. I just don’t agree with that, and I would rather our club has standards.

I don't think there is really, we have players in the squad right now considering January moves, considering July moves, it's a transient business, players will rightly always put themselves first, buy in is one game at a time, it wasn't that long ago that Kane refused to play for us remember, because Levy had outed his little brother as a complete mug.

I agree we need better standards, but we should be prioritising the standards of performance on the pitch and in training, not leading with how players react when we try to force them into a massive salary cut. I've heard way more about Richie's tweets from the manager than I have about his star signing centre back repeatedly being a massive coward, if the manager wants to set standards, he should start somewhere that influences results.

The culture at this club is fudged, I don't think this is the example you think it is, I think its the scrambling retcon of an out of depth manager hiding behind any excuse he can get his hands on.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I don't think there is really, we have players in the squad right now considering January moves, considering July moves, it's a transient business, players will rightly always put themselves first, buy in is one game at a time, it wasn't that long ago that Kane refused to play for us remember, because Levy had outed his little brother as a complete mug.

I agree we need better standards, but we should be prioritising the standards of performance on the pitch and in training, not leading with how players react when we try to force them into a massive salary cut. I've heard way more about Richie's tweets from the manager than I have about his star signing centre back repeatedly being a massive coward, if the manager wants to set standards, he should start somewhere that influences results.

The culture at this club is fudged, I don't think this is the example you think it is, I think its the scrambling retcon of an out of depth manager hiding behind any excuse he can get his hands on.

I just think that standards on the pitch and what goes on around the game are two different things. From what we know of De Zerbi, if you think he isn’t trying to enforce high standards on the pitch then clearly we’re just having a different conversation.

I don’t think he is out of his depth, and I think for some reason we are not even allowing De Zerbi the credit of a kernel of truth being inside of his words in any way. He said said it was a club decision and not for him. I don’t think he’s ever used Richy as an excuse.

If you agree the culture is fudged, I’d genuinely love to know how you would go about rebuilding it, and what sort of behaviour you would deem acceptable and unacceptable. I personally think it was fudging ridiculous for our captain to be going on social talking about lies and obstacles always being in the way (insinuating the owners) while simultaneously being late for training and having a dog poor disciplinary record. Completely ridiculous. And I think it’s also bad when a club has done right by every player that wanted to leave this summer for a player who has said they want to leave to go out on social media and again insinuate the move is to benefit them and not him. This is rubbish behaviour from a senior professional. I’d understand it if they tried to send Richy to some terrible league on an actual pay cut, but they didn’t.

 

[billyiddo]

I think we probably only made an effort to sell him when the Ndiaye deal came about - it did seem pretty quiet wrt him moving on until that deal almost happened and iirc the consensus seemed to be we would be keeping him. I think that ties in with his posts about not letting others decide his future for him and RDZs comments about wanting him to stay and of course selecting him all through preseason and at the start of the league campaign.

If it was about maintaining standards or whatever then RDZ would not have been trying to convince him to stay or playing him as much as he did.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

If it was about maintaining standards or whatever then RDZ would not have been trying to convince him to stay or playing him as much as he did.

Its such a good point. Seemingly the standards were ok for a fair while when his goals last season (ironically with Tels) went a long way to helping RDZ help us stay up.

Something has clearly changed or RDZ was tolerating lower standards last season which I dont see as he praised him last season (and in the summer unless im mistaken)

 

[billyiddo]

Its such a good point. Seemingly the standards were ok for a fair while when his goals last season (ironically with Tels) went a long way to helping RDZ help us stay up.

Something has clearly changed or RDZ was tolerating lower standards last season which I dont see as he praised him last season (and in the summer unless im mistaken)

I meant more so over preseason and in the Brentford game - i don't think we can take anything done last season, was all about doing whatever was required to stay up

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I meant more so over preseason and in the Brentford game - i don't think we can take anything done last season, was all about doing whatever was required to stay up

I think you can take the whole landscape though and it still not make much sence, or at least the rhetoric thats trying to be sold.

Ultimately we can talk about cultures all day and this perfect culture we are attempting to create whilst denigrating all number of players people seem to want to believe having attitude problems. Issues come when those players ultimately leave and succeed elsewhere and the culture seemingly isnt torn down by said players elsewhere.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think we probably only made an effort to sell him when the Ndiaye deal came about - it did seem pretty quiet wrt him moving on until that deal almost happened and iirc the consensus seemed to be we would be keeping him. I think that ties in with his posts about not letting others decide his future for him and RDZs comments about wanting him to stay and of course selecting him all through preseason and at the start of the league campaign.

If it was about maintaining standards or whatever then RDZ would not have been trying to convince him to stay or playing him as much as he did.

This is all very true and very fair, the deal seemed to come late. And if Richy had given his commitment to stay and then was sold he was being packaged off for NDiaye, I’d frankly be on his side. That would be low from the club if we’d been operating by a ‘go if you want to go, but if you want to stay we’ve got you’ policy all summer.

I think we also though have to apply the context of RDZ saying Richy had changed his mind about staying, he was out, then in, then out again. And I’m pretty sure those comments came out before the Everton deal. Which would then explain why we found him a move, and would then explain why the club would be perplexed about Richy criticising being sold.

In fact I’ve just checked. We lose to Saudi Sportswashing Machine, RDZ is questioned why Richy, Danso and Sarr are not in the squad, he explains they want to leave, the next day news of the Everton deal has come out. There are other quotes subsequently about RDZ saying he can’t go to Richy every day praying for him to stay. But the key thing here is that Richy has supposedly said ‘too many times’ that he wants to leave.

The standards point is more around the club - if it is indeed their decision to not register him because of the social media posts. It seems like RDZ probably would have rolled with it if Richy ended up not finding a move, but equally this policy of only wanting players who really want to buy in seems to be something that has come from him.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think you can take the whole landscape though and it still not make much sence, or at least the rhetoric thats trying to be sold.

Ultimately we can talk about cultures all day and this perfect culture we are attempting to create whilst denigrating all number of players people seem to want to believe having attitude problems. Issues come when those players ultimately leave and succeed elsewhere and the culture seemingly isnt torn down by said players elsewhere.

I actually don’t think Richy has an attitude problem. I think he was unprofessional to post on social media about the club during a transfer deal. But I believe if he was still playing he would run hard.

My thing about culture and standards is more…the club has to have some respect for itself. It has to have standards that the players buy into. The leaders of the squad then help enforce those standards. You have to respect the institution to then respect the rules and norms that occur every day within it. If one player can step out of line on one thing, maybe another player steps out of line on another. I think we as a club need to be an institution that is respected again. Not having a captain doing and saying whatever he wants because he’s the captain. Not having a starting striker doing and saying what he wants because he’s worth 30M+ to us.

So that’s the club, and I also think for RDZ wanting players who will listen and follow instructions, he will be driving his own standards too, and wants to see his own form of commitment. None of this is necessarily going to improve immediate results, but I think it’s a thing we have not had since Poch was enforcing standards and culture properly. That is what drives consistency. It was the leap between Sherwood’s frustration that the players are all too nice with each other to a squad that believed they could win every game and where each player raised everyone else’s level. I think that is what we need; and you only get that by enforcing standards.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I actually don’t think Richy has an attitude problem. I think he was unprofessional to post on social media about the club during a transfer deal. But I believe if he was still playing he would run hard.

My thing about culture and standards is more…the club has to have some respect for itself. It has to have standards that the players buy into. The leaders of the squad then help enforce those standards. You have to respect the institution to then respect the rules and norms that occur every day within it. If one player can step out of line on one thing, maybe another player steps out of line on another. I think we as a club need to be an institution that is respected again. Not having a captain doing and saying whatever he wants because he’s the captain. Not having a starting striker doing and saying what he wants because he’s worth 30M+ to us.

So that’s the club, and I also think for RDZ wanting players who will listen and follow instructions, he will be driving his own standards too, and wants to see his own form of commitment. None of this is necessarily going to improve immediate results, but I think it’s a thing we have not had since Poch was enforcing standards and culture properly. That is what drives consistency. It was the leap between Sherwood’s frustration that the players are all too nice with each other to a squad that believed they could win every game and where each player raised everyone else’s level. I think that is what we need; and you only get that by enforcing standards.

I think its much simpler than that, we just have never been a club that has had consistent success as part of its mantra, always had a soft underbelly. Absolutely had our glory nights but never sustained. Players are not silly, they know that and its hard to change any kind of culture when a clubs been the same for 60 years.

Its not a coincidence that someone like Romero wins everything at international level in a set up full of players who are like rabid dogs who want to win and now at a club with a manager who is the same, sitting second, whilst we continue to languish. People can kid themselves on how and why its always us, but we have been through countless evolutions and its always us, thats not just bad luck

BTW I am not saying you are saying this, I am just making a statement

 

[Muttley]

No player is ever 100% bought in to a club.

They are all mercenaries.

Kane left, Hoddle left, even Mabbutt wanted to leave.

But there is not a chance that Mabbsy or Hoddle would have used a tool like social media against the club they clearly loved. Harry totally got away with one with the Miami fiasco but even he wouldn't have done what Richi did. He kept his comms between him and the club and, even to this day, we don't know what they were.

I'm so glad you brought these 3 legends up, as it sort of proves the point that Richi should have had way more respect for his employers in his external comms.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

But there is not a chance that Mabbsy or Hoddle would have used a tool like social media against the club they clearly loved. Harry totally got away with one with the Miami fiasco but even he wouldn't have done what Richi did. He kept his comms between him and the club and, even to this day, we don't know what they were.

I'm so glad you brought these 3 legends up, as it sort of proves the point that Richi should have had way more respect for his employers in his external comms.

The Kane interview on Sky was ridiculous though.

The fact his farewell interview was under a bush somewhere random was indicating on how his time ended.

They all want whats best for themselves now......

 

[Baleforce]

But there is not a chance that Mabbsy or Hoddle would have used a tool like social media against the club they clearly loved. Harry totally got away with one with the Miami fiasco but even he wouldn't have done what Richi did. He kept his comms between him and the club and, even to this day, we don't know what they were.

I'm so glad you brought these 3 legends up, as it sort of proves the point that Richi should have had way more respect for his employers in his external comms.

Kane went on strike, think that kinda let the cat out of the bag rather than keeping it in house and playing through it. A clear message was delivered to us all.

Social media wasn’t a thing when Mabbutt wanted to go to the scum and Hoddle left.

I don’t think players having right to reply is a bad thing. Respect is a two way street.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think its much simpler than that, we just have never been a club that has had consistent success as part of its mantra, always had a soft underbelly. Absolutely had our glory nights but never sustained. Players are not silly, they know that and its hard to change any kind of culture when a clubs been the same for 60 years.

Its not a coincidence that someone like Romero wins everything at international level in a set up full of players who are like rabid dogs who want to win and now at a club with a manager who is the same, sitting second, whilst we continue to languish. People can kid themselves on how and why its always us, but we have been through countless evolutions and its always us, thats not just bad luck

BTW I am not saying you are saying this, I am just making a statement

If we have never been a club that has had consistent success for 60 years, what is it that you want? It’s like you’re saying this is our lot, it’s never going to get much better, and we just have to be comfortable in this weird middling position forever and on? Some glory glory nights but mostly inconsistency?

I don’t buy that, and the reason I don’t is because for a 4 year period from 2015 to 2019 Poch showed it could be done. He took over a completely disconnected, disheveled, random mishmash of players that the previous manager could not get a consistent tune out of, and he made it happen. He built a culture and he enforced standards. It’s not like, from November 2015 onwards we had massively better players than we had since 2005. We used a lot of youth, we turned some prospects around, and we built a culture where each player bettered the other. It was tactically good but that only got you so far. Consistency came from culture. It was standards enforced, it was rules followed, and it was norms established like the handshakes at the start of every training session.

Building a culture and standards takes time. But if we are ever going to get back to some sort of consistency that is what we need to do, it will be tough, there will be painful moments. And some people will be left on the outside. I’m not following that because we’ve most of the time been a glorious basket case we should accept that and just try and make the most of it. And with that, we shouldn’t accept unprofessional behaviour.