Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Mabspurs]

If you think Poch just found this amazing squad that he had nothing to do with developing you just don’t know ball. It’s as simple as that, no other way to say it.

He had a group of talented younger players, none of whom had reached their potential. He improved them all, he built a system that made the whole greater than the sum of the parts, and he built a culture so that his principles endured for 5 years with that same group.

The fact that you think the squad he had was as good as you think it was is entirely down to him.

Yet still managed to win nothing... I never said he was not a good coach but with the squad and opportunities he had... he should have won something...

 

[Mabspurs]

My perspective is he came into a squad which had just achieved a trophy, let alone a European trophy, which had suffered outrageously through the season and learnt so much from that pain, and which was primed to dare and do, fused with a little more of the pragmatism we saw employed at the end of last season only done so much better and with more fluidity based on Frank’s history. Add to that his reputation of developing young talent and bringing it to new levels, plus an ownership which was surely primed to support him, and I think he actually stepped into an excellent situation for a manager of his potential ceiling.

Nice rose tints on those glasses....

 

[thfcsteff]

Each to their own. But energetic, technical? That isn’t what i see or can see. Perhaps with Madders or Kulu back but still a long way off. Porch had prime Ali, Dembele, Kane, Son, Toby, Jan, Walker and Rose let’s not forget…

Poch knew exactly what he had with Dele. Most managers would’ve been scared by him precisely because of what he was. I blame Southgate for starting his decline when he decided to deploy Dele in an unnatural position for him in order to also be able to play Lingaard, thus introducing the idea that the likes of Mourinho saw, of Dele as some sort of box-to-box water carrier with skills. So Poch developed him. Walker. Poch developed him from a fast yet somewhat brainless FB into what he became. Sonny, arrived with potential which Poch developed. Toby, 100% finished article when we bought him so agree there, Jan, pretty close so agree there. Dembele? No-one saw him as anything other than an inconsistent ‘what is he’ player before Poch found him, so Poch developed him. Harry? I think this is maybe the biggest, because there is no doubt that Poch developed him and believed him however Kane’s insane work ethic was a huge part of it all.

Who of Xavi, Kudus, Odobert, Bergvall, Gray and even Sarr is Thomas either improving or showing signs of improving? Maybe with time? Is he offering any of those players a system or style of play which suits their natural abilities (in that question perhaps Gray doesn’t count because he is a utility gem who could do anything he wants…even at 10 yesterday he ended up in a position where I thought he should’ve had a penalty!)? Just questions not criticisms. I think it’s a fun discussin.

 

[thfcsteff]

Nice rose tints on those glasses....

Care to join the conversation or just take a pot-shot?!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

Yet still managed to win nothing... I never said he was not a good coach but with the squad and opportunities he had... he should have won something...

You’ve answered a question I just asked in this thread a little earlier. Did you ever fully gauge what he did for this football club? I’m asking the question because an assumption would be unfair.

 

[Lilbaz]

I was just adding another manager who improved their stats in Y2.

In his second season he won every European game he managed us in, hence the 100% comment.

It was in the context of the thread discussion at the time.

Sorry was confused. Avb's first season we did well in the league. We sacked him his second season.
Yes he was undefeated in his second season with us in europe.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think there are some that care more about results than performances, who are up for us being hard to beat.

I want a pragmatist rather than an artist, I want a manager who will do whatever they believe maximises our chance of points in each game.

The idea that Spurs have to play pretty football is an albatross around our neck, 2 league titles in almost 150 years suggests to me it doesn’t work.

I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Frank reminds me of AVB, and I fudging loved him, I hope we don’t hound Frank out in the same way.

I think this is enormously honest. You’ve said it as you feel it without trying to denigrate any other opinion. Much respect Sir!

 

[Baleforce]

I don’t disagree with much of this.
But let me ask you, why do you think (in this case) Frank took the job? What did he get sold (and buy) if the squad was that bad and the foundations so poor? What has happened since the early days of ‘we stand on the shoulders of others…’ and ‘…build upon this foundation’?
Was Frank sold a turd? Is that the thought?
Genuine question mate, not looking to be cheeky here.

Probably something to do with his love for Allan Neilsen

 

[Mabspurs]

Care to join the conversation or just take a pot-shot?!!!

Have learnt it is futile to do so with a rose tinter... I am the first to be grateful for Poch for a fantastic number of years and undoubtedly agree that he was a great coach. However he had massive flaws which you are willfully ignoring... which were critical in the absence of any success during the times when, by luck or design, he managed the best squad this century and even beyond. And to even try to compare the squad Poch had - even in the first year - to the current one without the three key injuries is simply preposterous... so lets agree to disagree my friend...

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Its not that Kulu, Maddison and Solanke are elite level, its that they are in the first two cases creative both in terms of carrying the ball and passing. They also both score relatively consistently. Solanke is the only forward we have with a bit of hold up and linking play so yeah, you put them and Udogie in this team and i think we are 5 points better off at least and much easier on the eye.

We’ve had plenty of games where we’ve played Odobert, Xavi, Kudus. The are capable of playing progressive football if they’re in the system to do
it.

I’m not denying that Deki is not a more incisive passer but I think if he had been playing this first half of the season, in the same set up, I’m not sure how much difference he makes. Part of Xavi’s lack of impact so far may be adapting to a new league, but also think he’s just been completely isolated and not in a position to be successful. Maybe Deki would be slightly better on execution but our pass maps and team selections and shape have all been very clear.

Richi has actually played well and I think Kolo can hold up the ball. Again I’m not convinced that Solanke makes a meaningful difference.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I don’t disagree with much of this.
But let me ask you, why do you think (in this case) Frank took the job? What did he get sold (and buy) if the squad was that bad and the foundations so poor? What has happened since the early days of ‘we stand on the shoulders of others…’ and ‘…build upon this foundation’?
Was Frank sold a turd? Is that the thought?
Genuine question mate, not looking to be cheeky here.

Honestly thats tough to answer, I think we offer progression with profile, I think managers see jobs differently than we do as fans, I think often they take jobs eyes open knowing worse case scenarios is the pay off (not saying thats the driver by any stretch) but watching the Managers podcast I think all managers are aware of what they are going into.

In terms of sold a turd, again difficult, It may well be possible that all were honest around the table and agreed it would take time and work to be done with squad work and therefore the project mapped out as such, thats based on the noises from VV, Lange and Frank when he joined. I think it seems to fit now day 3 of the window and seemingly express pace taken to get stuff done. BUT that could also be total BS hahaha.

I said a month or so ago, this club needs to work out the kind of club it wants to be, its not clear from top to bottom what our philosophy is anymore, everyone's fumbling about in the dark IMO

 

[Muttley]

I’ve seen this ‘entitled’ comment here and there. In this context, what do you mean?

Yeah, where I was going with it was the Spurs fan's right that we should be going away to Brentford, totally dominating every aspect of the game and giving them a good hiding. GHod forbid our keeper has to use some game management to break up their ascendency and take the booking as we're not actually that good yet. We have to fight for every point in this league.

The funny thing is that under Ange we were complaining that we never took our time over goal kicks, corners, throw-ins etc. We were sprinting to get the ball back in play at the expense player fatigue and a lack of game management.

What the difference a year makes.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

We’ve had plenty of games where we’ve played Odobert, Xavi, Kudus. The are capable of playing progressive football if they’re in the system to do
it.

I’m not denying that Deki is not a more incisive passer but I think if he had been playing this first half of the season, in the same set up, I’m not sure how much difference he makes. Part of Xavi’s lack of impact so far may be adapting to a new league, but also think he’s just been completely isolated and not in a position to be successful. Maybe Deki would be slightly better on execution but our pass maps and team selections and shape have all been very clear.

Richi has actually played well and I think Kolo can hold up the ball. Again I’m not convinced that Solanke makes a meaningful difference.

Kulusevski comes deeper to get on the ball than Xavi does and i am not sure Xavi is that "creative", in terms of passing. Whereas Kulu and Maddison are the only ones in the squad capable of taking a move that is bobbling around in midfield and driving or passing it forward into a dangerous attack in an instant.

 

[thfcsteff]

Have learnt it is futile to do so with a rose tinter... I am the first to be grateful for Poch for a fantastic number of years and undoubtedly agree that he was a great coach. However he had massive flaws which you are willfully ignoring... which were critical in the absence of any success during the times when, by luck or design, he managed the best squad this century and even beyond. And to even try to compare the squad Poch had - even in the first year - to the current one without the three key injuries is simply preposterous... so lets agree to disagree my friend...

Err…what you replied to was something I was saying about Frank? I wouldn’t worry yourself though, us ‘rose-tinters’ are all the same anyway

 

[Muttley]

Its not that Kulu, Maddison and Solanke are elite level, its that they are in the first two cases creative both in terms of carrying the ball and passing. They also both score relatively consistently. Solanke is the only forward we have with a bit of hold up and linking play so yeah, you put them and Udogie in this team and i think we are 5 points better off at least and much easier on the eye.

I think the Solanke thing is interesting. At Bournemouth, things seemed setup for him to score. Under Ange he morphed more into a Firminho type player where the wider forwards, Son and Johnson got the goals. He was doing the hard yards for their benefit. We still don't know yet which version we would have under Frank who is renowned for getting his strikers to find the back of the net.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yeah, where I was going with it was the Spurs fan's right that we should be going away to Brentford, totally dominating every aspect of the game and giving them a good hiding. GHod forbid our keeper has to use some game management to break up their ascendency and take the booking as we're not actually that good yet. We have to fight for every point in this league.

The funny thing is that under Ange we were complaining that we never took our time over goal kicks, corners, throw-ins etc. We were sprinting to get the ball back in play at the expense player fatigue and a lack of game management.

What the difference a year makes.

Appreciate the clarity.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think the Solanke thing is interesting. At Bournemouth, things seemed setup for him to score. Under Ange he morphed more into a Firminho type player where the wider forwards, Son and Johnson got the goals. He was doing the hard yards for their benefit. We still don't know yet which version we would have under Frank who is renowned for getting his strikers to find the back of the net.

I think Dom is a good striker. Personally, no more than an (old money) 40-45 million one. Strong, brave, efficient, only one good goal scoring season really. We miss him but if we’re looking to upgrade Richy then we must also be looking to upgrade him too, albeit I agree he does lots for the team.

 

[Muttley]

Poch knew exactly what he had with Dele. Most managers would’ve been scared by him precisely because of what he was. I blame Southgate for starting his decline when he decided to deploy Dele in an unnatural position for him in order to also be able to play Lingaard, thus introducing the idea that the likes of Mourinho saw, of Dele as some sort of box-to-box water carrier with skills. So Poch developed him. Walker. Poch developed him from a fast yet somewhat brainless FB into what he became. Sonny, arrived with potential which Poch developed. Toby, 100% finished article when we bought him so agree there, Jan, pretty close so agree there. Dembele? No-one saw him as anything other than an inconsistent ‘what is he’ player before Poch found him, so Poch developed him. Harry? I think this is maybe the biggest, because there is no doubt that Poch developed him and believed him however Kane’s insane work ethic was a huge part of it all.

Who of Xavi, Kudus, Odobert, Bergvall, Gray and even Sarr is Thomas either improving or showing signs of improving? Maybe with time? Is he offering any of those players a system or style of play which suits their natural abilities (in that question perhaps Gray doesn’t count because he is a utility gem who could do anything he wants…even at 10 yesterday he ended up in a position where I thought he should’ve had a penalty!)? Just questions not criticisms. I think it’s a fun discussin.

You've not noticed the changes in Gray during the season? I'm surprised at that. I think he has come on leaps and bounds under Thomas. I've already made the statement that Bergval will follow next. Xavi is clearly making progress with Frank's nurturing as well and I read so many posters talk about Odobert looking better under Frank. Not sure I'm as convinced on that one yet.

I loved Poch's nurturing talents. In the spirit of a fun conversation, your comment on Gray is like saying that Poch didn't deserve any credit for Harry's progress because he was always going to be great. In my opinion, Frank is pivotal to Gray's development and will deserve the same credit Poch got for the players you list and others. Gray was absolutely critical to how we defended yesterday. Sometimes he was dropping in to centre mid and other times he was becoming the 9 and defending from the top. Then Frank was able to switch him mid game and move him back into the double pivot. That is all Frank nurturing.

I guess some players are just easier to coach. I bet Gray is near the top of that list at Spurs. I have a feeling Tel, Muani and Odobert aren't.

Kudus is the intriguing one for me. He hasn't hit his stride yet and you could lay that with the manager or player to be fair.

 

[Muttley]

I think Dom is a good striker. Personally, no more than an (old money) 40-45 million one. Strong, brave, efficient, only one good goal scoring season really. We miss him but if we’re looking to upgrade Richy then we must also be looking to upgrade him too, albeit I agree he does lots for the team.

Yeah, agree. I don't see Dom as a problem because he does make a great squad player. He'd easily give us significant depth if a new guy came into the club or one of our youngsters stepped into the role ahead of him eventually. Richi will get rotated out in due course and I'm left wondering whether Muani will be wanted by Frank. I have a feeling that he might get the Brennan Johnson treatment if he can't find consistency in the 90 mins.

 

[Lilbaz]

I think if we really want to be succesful we need a world class dof. Paratici or lange don't do it for me.
Someone that can come in and set the standard on the football side.
I'd love marotta to come in. Identify the coaches. Players. Manager etc... if the players and coach fall out. He steps in and sorts it. Everyone knows he's the boss.
At the moment i have no idea who is.