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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

glorygloryeze said:
Tell me which law did Iran break that led to Israel carrying out their "pre-emptive" strikes last week?
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Article 2(4) of the UN Charter prohibits use or threat of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state. Article 51 does however allow use of force by a member state in self defence.
The established "Caroline Test" allows use of force in "preemptive self defence" (i.e. you dont have to wait for an aggressor to actually attack you before you are justified in using force).
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Article 2(4) of the UN Charter prohibits use or threat of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state. Article 51 does however allow use of force by a member state in self defence.
The established "Caroline Test" allows use of force in "preemptive self defence" (i.e. you dont have to wait for an aggressor to actually attack you before you are justified in using force).
Click to expand...

Until there is clearly laid out evidence of Iran preparing to attack Israel, then i'm sorry Israel is in violation of this law.
Not to mention Israel's bombing of Syria and Lebanon recently: did they pass these tests too?
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Article 2(4) of the UN Charter prohibits use or threat of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state. Article 51 does however allow use of force by a member state in self defence.
The established "Caroline Test" allows use of force in "preemptive self defence" (i.e. you dont have to wait for an aggressor to actually attack you before you are justified in using force).
Click to expand...

This is what the UN is for. Those laws are about as useful as the UN is. They mean nothing as nobody follows them or cares about their resolutions.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Iran has not broken international law? Are you being serious? In terms of the Israeli strikes they have an arguable case of self defence in degrading Iran's ability to manufacture and supply arms as Israel faced the Oct 7th attacks and almost daily attempted rocket and missile strikes from Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis all of whom are essentially paramilitary proxies of the Iranian military.
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That really isn't enough under International Law for a pre-emptive strike against another soverign nation.

Under that reading the 9/11 attack was justified, right?
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Article 2(4) of the UN Charter prohibits use or threat of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state. Article 51 does however allow use of force by a member state in self defence.
The established "Caroline Test" allows use of force in "preemptive self defence" (i.e. you dont have to wait for an aggressor to actually attack you before you are justified in using force).
Click to expand...

Caroline Test (from the frigging 1830S for GHod's sake!!!) states the need for a "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation". This would mean that Iran HAVE nuclear weapons and were going to the use them now, NOT in a few weeks time. Neither of those are established and Iran was still in negotiations with US over the Nuclear Treaty according to trump who didn't want an attack the day before it happened.
 
LutonSpurs said:
This is what the UN is for. Those laws are about as useful as the UN is. They mean nothing as nobody follows them or cares about their resolutions.
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Yeah but we know the US and Israel (amongst others) ignore the UN whenever it suits them which has allowed other countries to ignore them.

Much as the USA devalued the League of Nations and the ICC by refusing to sign up to them or being answerable to International norms.
 
Aren’t Israel an independent nuclear power?
Doesn’t seem to get mentioned much.

Why don’t they just say to Iran. You’ve got thirty minutes to surrender?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Until there is clearly laid out evidence of Iran preparing to attack Israel, then i'm sorry Israel is in violation of this law.
Not to mention Israel's bombing of Syria and Lebanon recently: did they pass these tests too?
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There is pretty clearly laid out evidence of Iran supplying weapons to groups that ARE attacking Israel on a daily basis. Israel has been facing almost daily rocket and missile attacks from Hezbollah in Lebanon for example.
 
Lost Mango said:
Caroline Test (from the frigging 1830S for GHod's sake!!!) states the need for a "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation". This would mean that Iran HAVE nuclear weapons and were going to the use them now, NOT in a few weeks time. Neither of those are established and Iran was still in negotiations with US over the Nuclear Treaty according to trump who didn't want an attack the day before it happened.
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Caroline test has evolved since the 1800s. Israel actually used it before to justify pre-emptive stile on Iraqi nuclear facility in 1981.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
There is pretty clearly laid out evidence of Iran supplying weapons to groups that ARE attacking Israel on a daily basis. Israel has been facing almost daily rocket and missile attacks from Hezbollah in Lebanon for example.
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Ok. What about the evidence that Israel supplied Argentina with weapons during the Falklands war:

www.independent.co.uk

Israel sold weapons to Argentina at height of Falklands War, declassified files show

Military jets sold to Argentine forces were used to bomb British warships, while arms sales continued even after the war was over
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

Should the UK bomb Israel now as payback?
Should Russia bomb us given that we are supplying Ukraine?
We have supplied Saudis in their conflict with Yemen, are we fair game for a Houthi bombing or two?
 
johnola said:
I realise it might scare the horses but it’s no different in my eyes damage wise than a sustained conventional assault.
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Well i think that might be the one reason why the US may get involved. Israel doesnt have conventional munitions able to penetrate Iran's deepest nuclear facilities so they may say to the tanks "either you drop one of your conventional bunker busters on them or we will drop a nuke on them"
 
glorygloryeze said:
Ok. What about the evidence that Israel supplied Argentina with weapons during the Falklands war:

www.independent.co.uk

Israel sold weapons to Argentina at height of Falklands War, declassified files show

Military jets sold to Argentine forces were used to bomb British warships, while arms sales continued even after the war was over
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

Should the UK bomb Israel now as payback?
Should Russia bomb us given that we are supplying Ukraine?
We have supplied Saudis in their conflict with Yemen, are we fair game for a Houthi bombing or two?
Click to expand...
Russia is probably justified under international law in attacking us in a Proportionate manner if our supplied weapons threatened their sovereign territory - why do you think we put all the restrictions in place on Ukraine using them? "Pay back" isn't justified under international law.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Russia is probably justified under international law in attacking us in a Proportionate manner if our supplied weapons threatened their sovereign territory - why do you think we put all the restrictions in place on Ukraine using them? "Pay back" isn't justified under international law.
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So it's fine to do a 'pre-emptive' strike but not retaliate?
So Israel didn't have grounds to attack Iran re Hezbollah etc then, right?
 
glorygloryeze said:
Ok. What about the evidence that Israel supplied Argentina with weapons during the Falklands war:

www.independent.co.uk

Israel sold weapons to Argentina at height of Falklands War, declassified files show

Military jets sold to Argentine forces were used to bomb British warships, while arms sales continued even after the war was over
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

Should the UK bomb Israel now as payback?
Should Russia bomb us given that we are supplying Ukraine?
We have supplied Saudis in their conflict with Yemen, are we fair game for a Houthi bombing or two?
Click to expand...

France also sold them a lot of stuff, Rafael jets and Exocets as well as enabling a sea invasion of terrorists and criminals on these shores.

And yet we have launched campaigns to save them at the expense of millions of lives and years and years of accrued wealth.

Their actions also led to the defeat of The UK by the separatists in the War of independence.

They are the real foe, always have been.
 
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