Ange in or out?

[Surfless]

I've been pro Ange throughout the season, albeit unafraid to call him out on mistakes and lately feeling like there was an inevitability to his departure this summer, given some of the decisions he's made but also the way he has justified himself in the media afterwards. I remained pro Ange before last night and I remain pro Ange now.

I previously said that in order to fully understand the clubs position it depends on the metrics he's being judged on. If his sole mandate was "win a trophy" then he's quids in and should be backed through the summer and for the first ten games of next season. If his mandate, as is more likely, was to secure champions league football then he's done that too, with the cup a bonus due to the way we've done it.


If his mandate was top four/five explicitly then he's going to have a lot of explaining to do .

The biggest reason I think he will keep his job is that Levy is very concerned with the club and his public image. To sack the first guy to win a trophy in a generation will be seen as a very "spurs-y" thing to do, especially if they don't have a plan in place around who is in charge between Munn and Paratici.

Id let him recruit in line with the club strategy this summer and give him ten games. Of we lose 5 or more he's done, and then can be removed due to league performance post trophy win.

I have a feeling though if he's backed and Romero stays, we might be a different proposition next season.

 

[FatBloke]

It is, for sure.
But the question is actually "how are you going to make it acceptable next season"?

If we decided as a club in Feb/March to focus on the EL for it's benefits, then it skews the data for the League. There did feel like a change around that time. A 10-12th place finish could be explained by the injuries. Injuries plus dismissing the League for a few months might explain 17th.
That said, as @fernadez said, it doesn't explain the stark contrast in tactics. Although the players holding back might explain it - the PL comes down to the tiny margins.

I suspect the decision has been made to move to a coach that is suitable for the PL and to allow Ange to get us, and him, the EL. He can be the first building block in this new phase - not dissimilar to how Martin Jol was.

This was a very unusual season, in that it's been pretty clear for a while that relegation would be between four teams. Here's how things looked on 4th Feb:


(source: https://www.football365.com/premier-league/table/table-on-this-date)

If it wasn't clear then, it definitely was a month later:



Wolves then went on one hell of a run, but that didn't matter as we were 16 points clear of Ipswich with 27 points left to play for.

In most seasons, abandoning the league to that extent would have been suicide. As you say though, it could be an important building block. I'm just not convinced that Ange has enough to offer in terms of the league. And no-one remembers a season where you get to the semi-finals of every available cup.

 

[Ron Burgess]

If there is a strategy from Don Paratici, Ange, Wells, Munn, Lange et al on how to improve the squad and be competitive in the league and Champions League next season, I would be for keeping him. We need to aim for top 8, UCL quarter finals and a cup win.

However, if there is no plan and it is more of the same, throwing the league away. Ange has to go. I haven't changed my mind, this is what I have been saying post Frankfurt. We need to be clearer about how we rotate in the league and maintain a level of performance and result.

 

[DaveT316]

I've been pro Ange throughout the season, albeit unafraid to call him out on mistakes and lately feeling like there was an inevitability to his departure this summer, given some of the decisions he's made but also the way he has justified himself in the media afterwards. I remained pro Ange before last night and I remain pro Ange now.

I previously said that in order to fully understand the clubs position it depends on the metrics he's being judged on. If his sole mandate was "win a trophy" then he's quids in and should be backed through the summer and for the first ten games of next season. If his mandate, as is more likely, was to secure champions league football then he's done that too, with the cup a bonus due to the way we've done it.


If his mandate was top four/five explicitly then he's going to have a lot of explaining to do .

The biggest reason I think he will keep his job is that Levy is very concerned with the club and his public image. To sack the first guy to win a trophy in a generation will be seen as a very "spurs-y" thing to do, especially if they don't have a plan in place around who is in charge between Munn and Paratici.

Id let him recruit in line with the club strategy this summer and give him ten games. Of we lose 5 or more he's done, and then can be removed due to league performance post trophy win.

I have a feeling though if he's backed and Romero stays, we might be a different proposition next season.

Get Eze, Mbuemo and Ederson - the Atalanta one - in and we’re cooking!

£60m down on each of them early in the window gets it done.

 

[harr1984]

If there is a strategy from Don Paratici, Ange, Wells, Munn, Lange et al on how to improve the squad and be competitive in the league and Champions League next season, I would be for keeping him. We need to aim for top 8, UCL quarter finals and a cup win.

However, if there is no plan and it is more of the same, throwing the league away. Ange has to go. I haven't changed my mind, this is what I have been saying post Frankfurt. We need to be clearer about how we rotate in the league and maintain a level of performance and result.

One of the key things is a plan around managing players/injuries. That 2-3 month period with constant injuries really fudged us, had we not gone through that I don't believe we would have been sitting anywhere near where we are now in the league. Not making excuses, just think that's a key area to figure out with the number of games players are asked to play now, and to be fair I think since then it has been managed better and we've just been unlucky with our midfielders injured.

Interestingly after the match Ange spoke about the need to recruit some more experience, I couldn't agree more and think this is where we are lacking - a couple of players in their prime to supplement the amount of young talented players we have....

 

[carl]

Yes!

Fair enough, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Mikey10]

One of the key things is a plan around managing players/injuries. That 2-3 month period with constant injuries really fudged us, had we not gone through that I don't believe we would have been sitting anywhere near where we are now in the league. Not making excuses, just think that's a key area to figure out with the number of games players are asked to play now, and to be fair I think since then it has been managed better and we've just been unlucky with our midfielders injured.

Interestingly after the match Ange spoke about the need to recruit some more experience, I couldn't agree more and think this is where we are lacking - a couple of players in their prime to supplement the amount of young talented players we have....

I’d start with Grealish. And a top keeper.

 

[Grays_1890]

I’d start with Grealish. And a top keeper.

I think Grealish would be horrendous for us

We need another keeper, Vicario despite the late heroics was a panic attack with gloves the rest

 

[Gutter Boy]

Coming from the man that gave us the classic ‘serious relegation fears’ quote I take this post as a vote of confidence that keeping Ange is the right thing to do.

Would you really bet the house on none of Leeds, Burnley or Sheff U/Sunderland being able to scrape together 40 points?

 

[Junior19]

The message would be that finishing 4th bottom and getting beaten 20 times in a league season isn't acceptable.

In a normal season, no. Not at all. This hasn't been, by any stretch of imagination.
We can discuss the reasons for the injuries and who's to blame, but if anything is "sexy", that is.

Anyway

We've tried it all: we've hired the up'n'coming, we've poached other teams successful managers, we've hired the established winners, we've tried the defensive park-the-bus, we've tried the gung-ho and none of them have managed to win a major trophy. We've sacked them all, because they didn't manage to teach Tottenham to win things.

Now we finally have someone who has won something, HERE, with us.
And it is the first european trophy in 41 years in a year even Spurs-fans think has been absurdly absurd with injuries and bad luck and people want Levy to FIRE him?
Who in his right mind would take on that task now?
Ange took a bit of a gamble, by sacrificing the league form to maximize the chances of winning this trophy. The gamble Levy would have to take by getting someone else in now... well..

Who can possibly come in here now and promise both challenge in the league, _and_ keep winning stuff? Because clearly, that must be the bar for the next dude in order to stack up to the comparison. What if he bums out of Champions League, the cups and finishes 5th in the league?

Ange has done it, he has a trophy. He can (if he gets to continue) build on the young core he has collected, attract improvements where needed, and carry on into champions league and challenge in the league without an absolute neccesary win next season, and still have success.

Sacking Ange now?
Divorcing the wife day before the she wins the Euromillions, I'd call it.

 

[monkeybarry]

We played reasonably similar tactics in the wins over ManUtd and Brentford that all but secured our safety.

This, plus @FatBloke & my earlier comments are what intrigued me.
I don't think he's up to the PL. However, he has got us over the line in EL and I'm now open minded to viewing this as a growth season for the manager, players (most of whom are very inexperienced) and club.
I'm not convinced. But open minded.

 

[metalgear]

the cup win just confirmed my belief that we have good players but a poor manager
the ange in/out question is now tied into expectations for 25-26 premier league and champions league goals.

for me I would target CL quarter finals and CL qualification places next season. and i don't think ange is good enough

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

It's too early to be totally objective, emotions all over the place.

What I will say is that for the first time in as long as I can remember I was confident going into a big game.
OK it was only utd, but even 6 months ago I don't think we win that game.
Something has changed and I can only see that being down to ange.

Why was I confident, because the players looked like they believed. They truly had this, and they knew they did. Not just last night but since at least frankfurt.

There's been some speculation about ange and his use of us and they in his interviews last night.
Well I'm going to posit (that one's for @thfcsteff, I think you deserve it) a few things here.

"It's what we do mate."
Who is the we.
Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.
We play good football and win fudge all.

After Jose, nuno and conte ange coming in and playing "pragmatic" football would have went down like a lead balloon.
I always thought he was caught out with the results of his first 10 games. He didn't expect that IMHO. We rode it until the injuries decimated us.
If not, as the season progressed would he have modified his set up? With the fans on his side it would have been easy to say "we will play Angeball when we can, but sometimes we need to be more pragmatic."
How many of us would be moaning our fudging arses off if we had to watch what has been served up in the EL since the frankfurt game week in week out in the PL? A hell of a lot of us.
How many times have we been on wrong on of performances like last night. Loads.
How many times after those games have we been told that's what "big" clubs do. Loads.

Like the previous three managers he has been critical of the set up and culture in the club.
Ange hasn't whinged, hasn't thrown his toys out of the pram, he's got on with his fudging job.

Nobody, absolutely nobody could turn us around in two years, despite the win last night ange hasn't either, but whatever happens I think we are in a better place now than when he joined us.

There's also an awful lot to unpack, digest, analyse and make sense of. Most of which we the fans will never properly be privvy to, so as long as the club make a decision based on the right reasons I'm happy with whatever decision they make.

I totally agree with your point of about playing this way every week would tinkle off fans, it would me, I stopped going as neither Mourinho or Conte seemed to care about the club just themselves and the bitching all around me was twisting my pineapple. I want us to win as much as the next bloke but I want to see us trying to win playing positive football and not waiting for our opponents to make a mistake.

 

[carl]

the cup win just confirmed my belief that we have good players but a poor manager
the ange in/out question is now tied into expectations for 25-26 premier league and champions league goals.

for me I would target CL quarter finals and CL qualification places next season. and i don't think ange is good enough

Don't think his CL record is any better than his Premier League Record. Lost in the qualifiers to the mighty FC Midtjylland and the following season lost 4 out of 6 in the group, drawing 2. I'm sure Brenda has a better record in the CL but could be wrong

 

[glasgowspur]

Don't think his CL record is any better than his Premier League Record. Lost in the qualifiers to the mighty FC Midtjylland and the following season lost 4 out of 6 in the group, drawing 2. I'm sure Brenda has a better record in the CL but could be wrong

You are wrong.
Brenda has the worst two results in Celtics European history.

What I don't understand is you say Celtic are a Diddy team in a Diddy league and none of Ange's achievements there are relevant. But then critise him and them for not competing in the champions league.
The Premier club Cup competition in the world, what do you expect a team from Scotland to do in it?
The transfer fee for declan rice could buy the whole of Scottish football.

 

[carl]

You are wrong.
Brenda has the worst two results in Celtics European history.

What I don't understand is you say Celtic are a Diddy team in a Diddy league and none of Ange's achievements there are relevant. But then critise him and them for not competing in the champions league.
The Premier club Cup competition in the world, what do you expect a team from Scotland to do in it?
The transfer fee for declan rice could buy the whole of Scottish football.

I don't remember saying anything about Celtic but since you raise the point about them not being expected to do anything in CL, shouldn't we flip that and say we should've expected to win EL due to the same reasons? The strongest team we faced is Frankfurt and we got embarrased by Gala and were lucky to draw with Rangers.

Can't have it both ways I'm afraid

 

[glasgowspur]

I totally agree with your point of about playing this way every week would tinkle off fans, it would me, I stopped going as neither Mourinho or Conte seemed to care about the club just themselves and the bitching all around me was twisting my pineapple. I want us to win as much as the next bloke but I want to see us trying to win playing positive football and not waiting for our opponents to make a mistake.

I'm purely speculating, the methods he speaks of are assumed to be his playing style.
Well Angeball was the most spurs style of football I have ever seen, but we won fudge all with it and for years before trying to play the "Tottenham way".
Football has moved on, we haven't.
Maybe the methods ange speaks of are behind the scenes. The shift in mentality.
A shift that I think has been marked in the last few months.
Maybe it's finally clicked with the players.
If everything had been flipped last night the narrative would have been, same old spurs, can't get over the line, bottle jobs, not prepared to go the extra mile. Utd know how to win trophies, they're winners, it's in their DNA.
That's flipped, and to progress we need that before and more than a playing style.

 

[metalgear]

if we had to win the europa again i'd hire ange

next season we should be looking at a CL quarter final run and a premier league position that will get us CL - means we have to start beating teams like chelsea, villa, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and the only way is to keep more of our first eleven fit throughout most of the season. Is it too much of an ask for Ange?

In a normal season, no. Not at all. This hasn't been, by any stretch of imagination.
We can discuss the reasons for the injuries and who's to blame, but if anything is "sexy", that is.

Anyway

We've tried it all: we've hired the up'n'coming, we've poached other teams successful managers, we've hired the established winners, we've tried the defensive park-the-bus, we've tried the gung-ho and none of them have managed to win a major trophy. We've sacked them all, because they didn't manage to teach Tottenham to win things.

Now we finally have someone who has won something, HERE, with us.
And it is the first european trophy in 41 years in a year even Spurs-fans think has been absurdly absurd with injuries and bad luck and people want Levy to FIRE him?
Who in his right mind would take on that task now?
Ange took a bit of a gamble, by sacrificing the league form to maximize the chances of winning this trophy. The gamble Levy would have to take by getting someone else in now... well..

Who can possibly come in here now and promise both challenge in the league, _and_ keep winning stuff? Because clearly, that must be the bar for the next dude in order to stack up to the comparison. What if he bums out of Champions League, the cups and finishes 5th in the league?

Ange has done it, he has a trophy. He can (if he gets to continue) build on the young core he has collected, attract improvements where needed, and carry on into champions league and challenge in the league without an absolute neccesary win next season, and still have success.

Sacking Ange now?
Divorcing the wife day before the she wins the Euromillions, I'd call it.

 

[GGyid]

We won a cup, which, when we started, we were one of the favourites to win. This is the easiest of cups to win when the opposition is taken into account. The Champions League is at a completely different level and is comprised of teams that are on par with the Premiership top five and better. The current team under Ange is miles away from that level, as he has demonstrated in our league form.

I'm fed up with his 'Angeball' of panic defending, tippy tappy around both boxes a lack of shooting or the confidence to shoot (when was the last time Solanki had a shot from outside the box?), pressing from the front and leaving huge gaping holes behind, fullbacks stranded up field, Son and Solanki being sooo sloooow, they're well past it and so on.

Yes, amazing we won a cup, but this has been the most depressing season of watching my team I can remember. I don't want any more of it.

Daniel, please get rid.

 

[tommysvr]

Maybe the methods ange speaks of are behind the scenes. The shift in mentality.
A shift that I think has been marked in the last few months.
Maybe it's finally clicked with the players.
If everything had been flipped last night the narrative would have been, same old spurs, can't get over the line, bottle jobs, not prepared to go the extra mile. Utd know how to win trophies, they're winners, it's in their DNA.
That's flipped, and to progress we need that before and more than a playing style.

100%. Absolutely this. Everyone took “this is who we are” as a tactical statement. To me, it was much greater than that. It was the start of the cultural shift in the club. It was a statement designed to give the club a North Star. We’ve not had an identity since Poch left. That is what Ange was brought in for, in my opinion.